Random Politics & Religion #00

What is this ? We speak English here you hear !

I hear nothing!

We lead the world is mass shooting was has Sweden done lately !


(Swedish House Mafia doesn't count)

Most burned down refugee housing? We've had almost 30 this year >.>

One out of five women will be raped in college...according to this woman on the internet.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2015/06/12/1-in-5-women-say-they-were-violated/

That's exactly what KN said, just without all the PR language. Seems you agree with him after all.

Its not as bad as KN is making it out to be, orders are given of course, but they are thoroughly explained and usually end with "Any questions?" Its a team atmosphere, and there is a direct effort to get everyone on the same page, and the goal accomplished in the most efficient way possible. Sometimes the person giving the orders might not see that way, and of course a subordinate is free to point it out.

It's not PR language, there is a reason and a meaning to it. It all becomes very clear once someone enters into the NCO ranks. There is so much more to the Military culture then what is being represented. Hell once you get to your first duty station you realize that it's far more relaxed and humane then the Initial Entry Training (IET) environment. The first phase is deliberately made that way as a form of shocking a civilian out of an entire lifetime of doing things one way and into an environment where their actions can have extremely detrimental effects on everyone in a unit.

The funny part is that shock happens again in Primary Leadership Development School (PLDC, now known as BLC) but in reverse. They deliberately put the students in positions where they don't have enough information or guidance to execute the task and then the students are expected to figure out which questions to ask, break down the general tasks into subordinate tasks and then work together to conduct the task. None of this is told to the students prior to their entry into the course. Students are graded individually but a component of their score is based on peer reviews, ability to work in teams in both supervisory and subordinate positions.

Out of curiosity, what percentage of people enlisted in the military become a NCO? You imply that things only change once you reach that status, which still leaves the idea that your average soldier better do what he is told, no questions asked.

Stop thinking that, it's only in the IET environment that it's heavily focused. Otherwise team members are encouraged to give suggestions, respectfully, and to communicate and work with their team leaders / squad leaders. The whole "you better do as I say or else" is a huge Hollywood inspired cartoon character. It's not even a "or else" but rather an entire legal system known as the Universal Code of Military Justice, UCMJ. The US Military is some magic place where Officers have absolute authority, but rather a structured environment with rules and regulations. Those rules and regulations are ultimately backed by the Presidents Constitutional power to regulate a disciplined military.

This is gonna get kinda long as it's basically a short class in the lower part of the military judicial system as seen from the Army's perspective. The other services have their own terms but they all come from the UCMJ and are pretty interchangeable.

Lets take a very common occurrence, being late for formation. Leaders frequently hold formations to account for soldiers and to ensure information gets disseminated. This is a vital part of the US Military, especially the Army and Marines, and is taught in IET. The formation will have a standardized time, say 1700 (5PM). If a soldier is missing from the formation then they will be called out of ranks, and since the policy requiring attendance of this formation is a lawful order, then that soldier could be in violation of the UCMJ. Now if there is a situation and the soldier can't attend, then they are required to contact their supervisor and inform them. Several things can happen after this, first is that it's truly an emergency and in which case the supervisor will contact whomever is holding the formation and account for the soldier and thus the soldier is not out of ranks. If the supervisor determines the reason isn't justified but the soldier isn't able to anyway then the supervisor will inform the formation holder and while the soldier may still be out of ranks, they will of been accounted for and thus the punishment will probably be very small if any. Finally if the soldier fails to inform entirely, then the supervisor has to go hunt them down after formation and there will most definitely be remedial training or even UCMJ.

There are three types of "punishment".

http://www.apd.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/r27_10/main.asp

#1 Non-Punitive

This is the one most often used and doesn't leave a paper trail when the Soldier PCS's. It's used as a form of corrective training for laziness, forgetfulness, or other minor problems. It consists of many different forms, from doing push-ups to working extra details, having to attend various formations or even stuff like writing essays, receiving counseling or giving class's the rest of the unit. The goal is to train the solder would also taking their time but not negatively effecting their military career. None of this involves the commander and rarely involves the units first sergeant.

#2 Non-Judicial UCMJ

This is for more serious violations of the UCMJ under Article 15. This involves both the first sergeant and the commander. The commander, after reviewing the case against he solder and hearing the solders self defense, can authorize various reductions in rank, can impose official restrictions and addition official details. Actions taken here are part of the soldiers record and can seriously impair their military career, especially for NCO's.

#3 Judicial UCMJ

This is the big scary stuff. Infractions so severe they require a Military Courts Martial. This is where prison time and dishonorable discharges come from. JAG and TDS get involved and there is an entire legal system for it. Generals get involved in these as they are the ones who told Title 10 General Courts Martial Authority from the President.

So the solder who's late cause they overslept will most certainly get Non-Punitive punishment. The NCO could direct them to arrive at formations 30 minutes early for the next two weeks while also giving them a written counseling statement about the importance of accountability and being at the right place at the right time. Of course the NCO has to be there too to ensure the soldier is doing this. If the soldier does this without issue then it's all pretty much forgotten. If the soldier fails to do this then the NCO may escalate to stricter requirements, or could pass the whole thing onto the first sergeant for a company grade article 15.

Ok now that we've gone over that. You need to understand the purpose of this whole thing is to ensure there is discipline. As a civilian if you don't like your boss you can just leave, or if you do a really bad job your boss can fire you, those idea's don't really exist in the military. Once you've signed on the line that is dotted and taken that oath, you are now required to honorably serve for the entire duration of your enlistment. Failure to do this can eventually lead to prison time, though normally they just dishonorable discharge you which stays on your federal record permanently. The purpose of a military is to fight a nations wars, it's not a jobs program though some people seem to think it is. In wars people die in brutal ways and sometimes people are required to sacrifice themselves for others. From this comes the requirement of a disciplined force and to enforce that discipline the UCMJ was created.

Sorry for the giant amount of information but this is a really complex subject that isn't really taught outside of the Military's various leadership schools. Soldiers in IET are giving a very basic set of class's about it, but it pretty basic as they are already pressed for time and there are other more important things to teach. The soldiers first unit is where this knowledge is expanded on and when the solder becomes a NCO is when they are taught the more advanced aspects.

As for your question, depends how you count it. Most soldiers are one term soldiers serving three year enlistments. NCO promotion is not automatic and requires the soldier show initiative and capability. Most soldiers don't show this initiative and serve their first term then ETS. For those who desire to become an NCO, it's possible to get promoted around the three to four year mark with most NCO promotions happening around year five. Each service implements it's own promotion system with different time in rank / time in grade and selection criteria, so an absolute number is impossible to give. For the Navy and Marines, practically all of them make NCO because their E4 rank is Corporal / Petty Officer which is a junior NCO. Army / Air Force on the other don't because most of their NCO's start at the E5 Sergent rank. The exception to that is the rarely used Army E4 Corporal rank. The Army has an automatic promotion system for ranks E1~E4 with the normal E4 rank being Specialist (SPC), this is not a NCO rank. If a SPC is in a leadership position then the unit commander may decide to laterally promote the SPC to the rank of Corporal as way of officially recognizing their leadership position. This mostly happens in combat arms and is pretty rare in the rest of the Army.

NCO's have far less restrictions but also far more responsibility and very little tolerance of excuses. You fail as an NCO and it's your *** while if a soldier fails it's assumed to be the NCO's fault for not training them properly. This is the aspect that most junior soldiers never see. They only see the Sergent being a hard *** for them coming in late or missing a formation, they don't see the Platoon Sergent or First Sergent chewing their team chiefs *** for not instilling discipline nor training their soldiers properly.

A Molotov cocktail was thrown into a restaurant in Kairo and reports are saying 12-18 dead and several injured but it's a bit too early to know for sure.

Awful way to die. Three suspects fled the scene and one of them is apparently a recently fired employee. Just what the *** could make you so angry at a restaurant.


Maybe not the right place for it but we don't really have a 'random news' thread lol

Yeah, I saw this and had a wtf moment.


I wouldn't say people should stop talking about military stuff but they should get more informed opinions. Ask questions rather than stating inaccurate information as facts.

In the last few weeks/months I've seen a lot of completely inaccurate information concerning the military and what seems to be a very low opinion of those who have served, on this site.

Yes, you have to learn to follow orders in the military.

You also learn to give them. To be a good leader, you have to learn to be a good follower.

No questions asked? You can ask questions of your commanding officers, but just like every other time in your life there are appropriate times and appropriate ways of doing so. You should not undermine your commander just like you wouldn't undermine your boss. Especially during critical situations.

I'm not sure it's hollywood that has provided people with false knowledge about the military as for the most part it is protrayed in an exceedingly positive (and unrealistic) way.

There are good and bad aspects to the military. But equating serving to be the equilivant of torture is highly hyperbolic.

Translating from italian news

Basically Danes voted to keep the status quo, not to opt out of the EU

First part of article
Danes reject EU justice rules

They've been saying the EU has been falling apart since the day it was founded, I dont really worry about it. Sure we will not become the United States of Europe, but the fundamentals of the EU are so old i dont see it likely that they would reverse the process. The Euro is a different story.

No, he told me once what his rank was, I just forgot what it was and didn't want to call him in the middle of the night. I thought it was Lt. Sergeant, but apparently I was mistaken. So, no he was not bullshitting me, I just have a faulty memory.

Obviously I don't give a ***about the armed forces, except knowing that it's something I can't do, either physically or mentally.

But all you said, I know. You can give boot camp a different name, but in reality, it's still boot camp. What you described essentially is what boot camp is, a period of time where they break you down to your core elements and reconstruct you to something different. If you resist, your life will be hell, which I would resist strongly.

Edit: after looking at the rank charts, I remember, it's lance corporal. He wanted to be a sergeant by now, which is where I got my ranks confused. I knew he was not the lowest rank but whatever.

The transition from ban guns to random military discussion is P and R approved.

They refuse to say it was terrorism on CNN MSNBC etc. They keep saying over and over "work related" issues. It's beyond absurd.


It would literally take someone shouting Allahu Akbar and killing Wolf Blizter on air for them to believe it.

The military isn't as bad as movies portray it to be, but sort of as Saev is saying, by necessity there is an element of having to break people into working in that well-oiled machine group setting.

It's vital to the operation of the military.

I think the military still has plenty of problems in its ranks, but I also don't think it's a poor career choice. While I may not hold the chest-thumping patriot point of view that I should worship the ground each and every service member walks on, I highly respect those who have served even when I entirely disagree with them on most things.

To give you some perspective on my own point of view, I have several family members who have been through Annapolis. They're not direct family members (ie: brothers, parents, etc.), but they're close enough in the familial sense that calling in the necessary favors for referrals and references was certainly an option. I had been involved with several other activities (Scouting, etc.) that would have made it quite easy to get the necessary letters of recommendation from public officials.

The thing is, you pretty much have to start prepping for that life several years before you graduate high school and -- commentary regarding my opinions here aside -- I actually did have my head pretty far up my *** as a teenager. So I sort of let that go. I wish I hadn't. I truly do.

By the time I was 18 I considered enlisting but I felt it would be a bad environment for me. I also had my head filled with a lot of other grand visions of achievement in other fields and ideals that had been instilled in me since I could walk by an equally idealistic family.

As I said before, hindsight is 20/20. If I had gone the Annapolis route things probably would have been fine, but given my age I would have been right in the thick of it back in the early 00s, and I know that despite any regrets I may feel on the topic, my wife and mother, at least, are thankful I didn't. I've seen one very good childhood friend and several others I went to school with buried far too early on behalf of our country.

I guess what I'm doing here is trying to flesh out my prior words and give some perspective.

The military is not a good choice for everyone. It should not be a forced assignment on anyone. It can be easy street for some people. It can be hell for others. Joining doesn't make you a puppet. Not joining doesn't indicate you're a free thinker above some puppetmastered command structure. It's just the personal freedom we're thankfully afforded in this country.

Bottom line is that you should respect those who chose to serve -- regardless of their reasons -- even if you disagree with them otherwise. You don't need to faun over them. So Saev, Slore, and anyone else out there who has served, thank you for doing so. Even if (when) I vehemently disagree with you on some things -- and make no mistake, I do, pretty sure Saev has me blocked and won't even see this -- and even if you never saw a lick of combat, you agreed to put your life on the life for mine if necessary merely because I was born an American, and I deeply appreciate that.

Edit: *** that turned into a wall of text, 'idn't it?

Ban bottles.

Stop trying to oppress microbreweries, man.

We did ban the word bossy banning bottles isn't too far away.

When I was growing up I was called bossy my self esteem was so low I almost didn't become COO of Facebook !

Maybe if someone called me bossy I'd turn into Beyonce. I'd take it.

One of the things I miss the most is taking road trips to go to this place for a great meal, beer samples and growlers to go.

Bethlehem Brew Works

Do not adjust your monitor I am become Death bringer of gun violence !

I never said that they shouldn't do what they do in boot camp. I'm saying that boot camp is not for me because of what they do, which is to turn you from who you were to something completely different (in my viewpoint).

If I'm portraying this in a negative light, it's because that is something I never want to do, which is to turn into somebody I'm not. It is intentional that I view military training negatively because of this fact, but I'm not saying that it isn't for everyone. I'm proud of who I am, and in my viewpoint, the notion of turning somebody into something different is one of the gravest insults you can do to a person. It's just not natural.

But all this is my opinion on the matter. You can dress it up anyway you want, but what basic training/boot camp/whatever the PR word of the day is for the military, it's all the same: turning a person into a cog in the machine. I enjoy my individuality, my personality, my independence, and my way of thinking.

I get what you're saying and I sort of agree. I just think the degree to which it happens is more based on the person and not the system. If someone was already of a mind to be swayed by that kind of regimen, they would have got it elsewhere (and probably did previously). Sports teams, unions, coworkers, social clubs, etc.

The majority of people tend to band together with those around them. In this case the military just uses that to their -- and, honestly, our -- advantage.

The degree to which it occurs is up to the individual though. Which is why you see some people who are diehard and steadfast in the rhetoric, and others who go along with it and learn their role without letting it become them.

I just do not want people to confuse that when I say "Boot camp is a personal hell" I'm not saying that "Boot camp is a hell for everyone" but really saying "Boot camp is a hell for me."

I think that's where the disconnect is with people I discussed here. Boot camp may have been great for them, and good for them for liking it. I knew what would have happened to me well before I was even able to join, if I ever want to.

My family members who served saw that I would have been absolutely miserable if I were to join the army, so they helped prevent even the slightest possibility of me joining by telling me horror stories and such. Which for that, I'm grateful. If I was somebody who would have liked or tolerated boot camp, they probably would have said something different.

I'm just glad my father wasn't like my grandfather who believed that every member of his family should serve. I'm sure that if he was still alive (my grandfather I mean), he would have insisted that his daughters serve today, instead of just his sons. My father served at the last part of Vietnam and served as a seaman in the Navy (I believe it was seaman, whatever the lowest rank in the Navy is). He did his time and he got out as soon as possible, but still got all the honorable discharge and vet status he wants. He never talks about his time in the Navy though, except that he served on the USS Enterprise (and I know I got THAT right, my memory may be faulty, but damn it, I know I got the name of the aircraft carrier right this time! How often do you have a family member serve on the ship with the same name as the Enterprise in Star Trek?)

When my father feels nostalgic for his Navy days, he usually goes down to Corpus Christi and tours the Lexington, usually he invites me (and my sister when she was living in Texas) to go along with him. That's usually when he talks about serving. Sometimes it's good stories, sometimes it's not so good. Either way....

Anyway, military life isn't for everyone, and I'm a prime example of why it's not.

US investigators believe that one of the shooters pledged to ISIS. I wonder if that's true or just to place the terrorism label on this event.