Are You A Lukewarm Christian?

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2010-06-21
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Are You A Lukewarm Christian?
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 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-01-31 11:55:26  
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
You're wrong Aman. Atheism by term is a lack of belief, not disbelief. Belief is positive-value, non-belief is-neutral value, disbelief is negative-value. Negative-value atheists don't really exist, and for the few that do, they fall prey to the same fallacy of faith(belief) that theists do.
Belief is just a state of mind. You believe something to be true. You can hold the belief that there is a god. You can also hold the belief that there is no god.

Belief in something is not confined to theism.

Personally I don't really care about how this little argument turns out but you're assigning false value to these terms.
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 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2014-01-31 11:55:27  
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
you will not shake my faith.
I don't think anyone cares to. Atheists, usually, don't preach.

I beg to differ. Even since I stopped going to church (which you think would make the religious preach to me daily), I hear atheists trying to convince the religious that their "totally not a system of beliefs, disbelief, belief system" at a bare minimum of 3x as often as i hear someone trying to convince someone to take part in relgion.

As someone who has been feeling something missing in their faith, or the need for something more, I assure you I have been eagerly listening to both sides and not "tuning one out in favor of the other".
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 11:55:37  
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
you will not shake my faith.
I don't think anyone cares to. Atheists, usually, don't preach.

Atheists don't preach that is pretty funny.
 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-01-31 11:56:07  
Valefor.Endoq said: »
Question: if the topic of religion is upsetting to someone then why are they here in the "Politics and Religion" thread?

I didn't even know this thread topic even existed until a few days ago and I have used this site for many years

That's why there hasn't been a thread specifically devoted to religion in a VERY LONG TIME. We all know what's coming around the bend. That's my theory on why everyone has been pretty hands-off about making a religious thread for the sake of a religious thread.

EDIT: Most of us probably practice a "live and let live" mantra when it comes to religion IRL (atheists and deists), but the tension is amplified in this setting.
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 11:57:25  
You know where this thread is going to go before you even look at page two.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2014-01-31 12:00:06  
I don't "believe" there is a God. I KNOW there is a God. For me to refute this would be to defy logic, and I can't do that without lying to myself.
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 12:02:41  
My jimmies haven't been rustled yet. I'm sorta disappointed.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-31 12:02:58  
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I don't "believe" there is a God. I KNOW there is a God. For me to refute this would be to defy logic, and I can't do that without lying to myself.

Without challenging your faith, how would you react if someone said "I don't believe we live in a giant's snowglobe, I KNOW we do, and for me it defies logic to think differently"?
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-01-31 12:04:05  
That's called gnosticism Endoq. Gnostics claim knowledge. Agnostics deny knowledge.

Flavin, unless you're going to provide something outside of "I feel you're wrong," I'm not even going to humor a real response.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 12:04:35  
Ragnarok.Ashman said: »
I beg to differ. Even since I stopped going to church (which you think would make the religious preach to me daily), I hear atheists trying to convince the religious that their "totally not a system of beliefs, disbelief, belief system" at a bare minimum of 3x as often as i hear someone trying to convince someone to take part in relgion.

As someone who has been feeling something missing in their faith, or the need for something more, I assure you I have been eagerly listening to both sides and not "tuning one out in favor of the other".

Having a metaphysical discussion with someone is not preaching as I'm not selling you a system by which to live life. There is no Jesus in a bottle, no easy answers, no miracle spring water here, only the idea to think for yourself. Freedom. I'm sure there are atheists who do preach their belief systems to others but since atheism is simply a null set on God, this is no different than door-to-door salesmen trying to peddle the new model of Ronco knives. Shut the door and get back to the football game.

What I do know is that religion is currently waning in power (in the West) which means good things for the rights of people who do not believe in these systems. We've spent centuries under religions heel and any student of history knows that though individuals may have their personal relationships, science may have flourished in the monasteries and many profound works have been created by those professing faith that the political machine uses religion to impose most cruel punishments against the "undesirables" in society.

For centuries that meant atheists, agnostics, soft-Christians, Jews, Muslims, animists, totemists and ancestor worshipers.

I tell people. Look at those radical Islamists who maim, kill and defend their deity like rabid zombies and you'll see what going back towards the fundamentals looks like. As early as Christianity was a religion there have been texts written against anthropomorphism regarding God.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-01-31 12:05:19  
Ragnarok.Ashman said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
you will not shake my faith.
I don't think anyone cares to. Atheists, usually, don't preach.

I beg to differ. Even since I stopped going to church (which you think would make the religious preach to me daily), I hear atheists trying to convince the religious that their "totally not a system of beliefs, disbelief, belief system" at a bare minimum of 3x as often as i hear someone trying to convince someone to take part in relgion.

As someone who has been feeling something missing in their faith, or the need for something more, I assure you I have been eagerly listening to both sides and not "tuning one out in favor of the other".
Maybe just my experience, but I've seen atheists go against the church(me included, which is not the same as someone's faith); I've seen atheists ridicule religious people(cause *** exist on every side of any argument); but I've never seen an atheist actively trying to convince people that they should stop believing in an afterlife.
Just sharing the disagreement with a belief doesn't mean I'm trying to convince you of my same idea, it's just sharing a thought. And apparently, this is often misinterpreted.

Anyway, I'm sure active atheists exist out there, but it seems so pointless to me that I have a hard time believing they're many.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 12:06:50  
I've yet to meet a Gnostic Atheist.
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 12:07:50  
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
I've yet to meet a Gnostic Atheist.

They live in Florida.
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-01-31 12:08:07  
It's a strange contradiction of ideas.
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 12:09:48  
I've yet to meet a woman that acts her age but they are out there somewhere!
 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2014-01-31 12:16:25  
fonewear said: »
I've yet to meet a woman that acts her age but they are out there somewhere!

just because you can post, doesn't mean you have to.
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 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2014-01-31 12:16:52  
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Ragnarok.Ashman said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
you will not shake my faith.
I don't think anyone cares to. Atheists, usually, don't preach.

I beg to differ. Even since I stopped going to church (which you think would make the religious preach to me daily), I hear atheists trying to convince the religious that their "totally not a system of beliefs, disbelief, belief system" at a bare minimum of 3x as often as i hear someone trying to convince someone to take part in relgion.

As someone who has been feeling something missing in their faith, or the need for something more, I assure you I have been eagerly listening to both sides and not "tuning one out in favor of the other".
Maybe just my experience, but I've seen atheists go against the church(me included, which is not the same as someone's faith); I've seen atheists ridicule religious people(cause *** exist on every side of any argument); but I've never seen an atheist actively trying to convince people that they should stop believing in an afterlife.
Just sharing the disagreement with a belief doesn't mean I'm trying to convince you of my same idea, it's just sharing a thought. And apparently, this is often misinterpreted.

Anyway, I'm sure active atheists exist out there, but it seems so pointless to me that I have a hard time believing they're many.

Saying "i'm not into religion because I'm intelligent" counts enough to me. Granted, I feel that they need to convince themselves more than anything. They're not like "join atheism" so much as they feel the need to stomp out your faith. Think a Klan member telling a white girl why interracial mixing is wrong. You, me and her might not agree but he's going to rant at you until you pretend you do. I've never seen a religious person carry on when someone tells them to *** off like some atheists do.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-01-31 12:17:46  
fonewear said: »
My jimmies haven't been rustled yet. I'm sorta disappointed.
want them rustled then?
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-01-31 12:18:09  
Can't use logic to comprehend the origin of the Universe and not believe in God. God is the only logical conclusion. You believe in God but you just want to call it something else like a Multiverse or something. You must believe in a place not bound by the dimensions of space and time that created our dimensions of space and time. The only other options left are illogical; a Universe with no beginning ( a circle), something created from absolutely nothing, or you can simply believe the Universe doesn't exist at all. All illogical. Stop misusing the word logic as a crutch, instead of belief or logic just say you have arrogance,
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-01-31 12:18:24  
Siren.Mosin said: »
fonewear said: »
I've yet to meet a woman that acts her age but they are out there somewhere!

just because you can post, doesn't mean you have to.
wait, are you implying that fonewear shouldn't have the right to post then?
 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2014-01-31 12:18:31  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Valefor.Endoq said: »
I don't "believe" there is a God. I KNOW there is a God. For me to refute this would be to defy logic, and I can't do that without lying to myself.

Without challenging your faith, how would you react if someone said "I don't believe we live in a giant's snowglobe, I KNOW we do, and for me it defies logic to think differently"?
People are entitled to believe what they want and I'm not going to just come out and say it's wrong, but rather try to understand their view and beliefs and see if any truth is in it, for me this is a learning experience and I'm a junkie for "new" knowledge. If they aren't open to hear anything I say then I just use it as a learning experience and observe the way they think and see what makes them tick...
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 12:20:12  
Siren.Mosin said: »
fonewear said: »
I've yet to meet a woman that acts her age but they are out there somewhere!

just because you can post, doesn't mean you have to.

Well if you go by that might as well eliminate a lot of posts/posters.
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By fonewear 2014-01-31 12:20:55  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
fonewear said: »
My jimmies haven't been rustled yet. I'm sorta disappointed.
want them rustled then?

Going to take more than that to rustle my jimmies.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 12:21:47  
Anyone claiming to know anything with certainty is just clutching their delusion that much tighter. You aren't fooling anyone.

Maybe Jesus is real and the Jews are about to have a bad time before he returns to take Christians up to Heaven for the greatest afterparty in the universe.

Or maybe Allah is real and the Muslims were right all along about Mohammed and his transmission from angels to men in a cave. Maybe women really are supposed to be little other than consumer goods to men.

Or maybe the world (Japan) really was painted by Amaterasu, Susanoo and Tsukiyomi and that the Japanese emperor is really descended from the gods. Bet you feel bad you destroyed Japan in WWII now, do you know how much work it took to paint those islands into existence?

Or maybe Ragnarok really is nigh and the Valkyries will come from me when I fall on the battlefield and take me to Valhalla where I'll get drunk, eat from a regenerating pig and train with the greatest warriors on Earth for the ULTIMATE BATTLE. I want to be a Monk if you're listening fate goddesses.

Point is, these could be true. But the evidence is weak and there is evidence to the contrary. Lots of it.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-01-31 12:24:21  
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
The only other options left
I understand what you're saying, and I can agree to some degree, however time-space is a human mind construct. Basing everything off something that might have a different interpretation and just lacks a better understanding won't make you reach an absolute truth. You still need a flexible mind, you canno ascertain your conclusion is the end of the road.

I will just say "Flatland" if you know what I mean.
 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2014-01-31 12:26:03  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
wait, are you implying that fonewear shouldn't have the right to post then?


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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-31 12:27:02  
Ragnarok.Ashman said: »
Saying "i'm not into religion because I'm intelligent" counts enough to me. Granted, I feel that they need to convince themselves more than anything. They're not like "join atheism" so much as they feel the need to stomp out your faith. Think a Klan member telling a white girl why interracial mixing is wrong. You, me and her might not agree but he's going to rant at you until you pretend you do. I've never seen a religious person carry on when someone tells them to *** off like some atheists do.

Lol, ok.

Keep acting like there aren't some batshit aggressive Christians trying to hawk their faith on you with threats of death, destruction and damnation. They are on the corners of streets across 'Murica, on TV every Sunday, in books and just abut everywhere. You only see atheists because they're the relatively new thoughtset on the block. And they also oppose your beliefs.

Today in Jesus: God gives kids autism because we support gay marriage. We must stop offending God or he'll throw another two or three Katrinas at us. Repent sinners. Expel the gays or suffer the wrath of Posiedon God. Yes, repent!
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-01-31 12:29:12  
Amandarius said:
Can't use logic to comprehend the origin of the Universe and not believe in God. God is the only logical conclusion. You believe in God but you just want to call it something else like a Multiverse or something. You must believe in a place not bound by the dimensions of space and time that created our dimensions of space and time. The only other options left are illogical; a Universe with no beginning ( a circle), something created from absolutely nothing, or you can simply believe the Universe doesn't exist at all. All illogical. Stop misusing the word logic as a crutch, instead of belief or logic just say you have arrogance,
Or, I can opt to believe in nothing because the amount of available information is insufficient to make an accurate assessment. Agnosticism.

Your logic is flawed, regardless. The first thing you must acquiesce in the above hypothetical is that all information is tentative and limited.

"I'm going to believe because I can't not believe in something" is such a shitty position to take, by the way.
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 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2014-01-31 12:35:35  
The world of imperfections that we live with and deal with and are even born with, is a propagation of all our imperfect deeds that have been done since we walked the earth, we made this world the way it is and now we have the consequences of those actions. This is true even if you don't believe in God, it's called cause and effect. Please this is way off topic again...
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 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-01-31 12:44:45  
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Can't use logic to comprehend the origin of the Universe and not believe in God. God is the only logical conclusion. You believe in God but you just want to call it something else like a Multiverse or something. You must believe in a place not bound by the dimensions of space and time that created our dimensions of space and time. The only other options left are illogical; a Universe with no beginning ( a circle), something created from absolutely nothing, or you can simply believe the Universe doesn't exist at all. All illogical. Stop misusing the word logic as a crutch, instead of belief or logic just say you have arrogance,

What theological exploration, outside of Christianity, have you embarked on?
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