[PC] To The Moon

Like how autism is treated as a sorta taboo..maybe some way of the author of trying to be tactful, but anyway...

When you say River's condition doesn't matter I disagree..if she was normal there'd be no story cause she wouldn't be obsessed with the moon and Johnny wouldn't have lingering regrets...

As for the doctors, they're used to represent the player inside the story observing and reacting to it, this is used in many stories, it's nothing new..though taste is subjective.

I appreciated the way that they dealt with autism. It was never explicitly said because in the long run (a) it didn't specifically matter to the plot that you knew what it was that she was affected by, (b) it could color people's interpretation before they intended, and (c) prevented it from being flagrant (HEY, IT'S AUTISM. SHE'S AUTISTIC IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW) – it left you guessing, at least early on, and through the whole story if you're unfamiliar with autism or other similar conditions.

The autism mattered, but knowing it was autism did not.

And I really enjoyed the romance of it all myself. It was heart-warming and heart-breaking all at once.

I think the biggest problem here is that you may have missed the point of the story by pulling it apart sentence by sentence as you went through.

River's autism is an integral part of the story. It's the entire reason why she's unable to talk to Johnny about the past, why she's always alone, it lends a tragic note to the entire story. Even though she tries as best she can, she can never overcome her own high walls, and thus she's never able to truly remind Johnny of what she wanted, or tell him how she feels, how she lives, what it's like to always be a stranger despite living in a world full of people. She tries to explain it with the lighthouse and the stars, but Johnny is too young to understand then, and she never is able to tell him that again. All she can do is urge Johnny to build the house next to Anya and make sure "she isn't alone anymore".

All of the events in the story blend together well, and it's told in a way that makes it much more interesting to read through. At first, you have no idea what's going on; you don't know about River's autism, you don't know that Joey was killed during Johnny's childhood causing him to forget everything before that, you don't know how much River struggled to not be alone.

The romance is just a means to an end, and in my opinion it ties the whole package together beautifully. It's what lends the tragedy to the critical points throughout the story, and it's what makes the ending such a mixed bag of emotions. I don't see how someone couldn't get attached to the characters and their struggles (the doctors aren't remarkable, but this is the first story of many to come and their story arc has only just begun, so I don't expect much from undeveloped characters anyway), however I found that most of the time they were used as relief between the actual story, and they didn't bother me very much.

The use of the fantastic soundtrack also helped. Each song has an emotion attached to it that I can still have evoked if I listen to it.

Overall, while there are flaws, it really isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. We're not talking about Shakespeare here, we're talking about a well crafted independently developed video game story; flaws are to be expected. The author just managed to mask most of them behind an overall compelling narrative.

The reason River was making the rabbits was to try to trigger Johnny's memory. She's Aspie, which means she's normal or better intelligence. Someone who was on the lower-functioning end of ASD might make weird decisions, but the rabbit thing (and cutting her hair and the moon-in-sky symbolism) were deliberate and thought-out. Maybe you have to be autistic to see the logic? I'm not neurotypical, so I can't trust my own responses on this.

And there are dozens of ways that Asperger's could have been made plot-essential, too. I know I said to drop it, but that's only because of how clumsily it was shoe-horned in (and conflated with a fatal illness).

As for Heckle and Jeckyl, they really needed to cram it. I don't need an audience surrogate (personal taste). Maybe because I grew up with the Muppet Show and MST3K, I associate their commentary with riffing. It was just distracting and often offensive. If further stories make them more integral characters, I'll forgive it, but as a stand-alone, they needed to have their lips sewn shut.

I could name a dozen more compelling romances. The focus needed to be a lot more distinct. Cloud and Aerith had more time spent developing their tragedy, and it was rather sub-par, too.

Don't know why you're bothering to explain the rabbits, wedding dress, and hair and assuming that we're not smart enough or "in touch enough" with the character in order to know what they were alluding to, or why it's relevant to the points of contention. I've already outlined all of those events and why I thought they were well thought out previously in the thread.

Having been with someone for years now who is extremely close to me that is essentially a carbon copy of River, I find myself uniquely attuned to her and this story in general. Maybe that's helped me understand and appreciate why her autism ties the story together and makes it even more sad as you uncover each piece of Johnny's past.

I'm not suggesting you guys don't get it, but... maybe I am.

***, THIS is what it's like to be Aspie: I have a thought in my head and it becomes a serious chore to find some way to express it, such that I don't want to even bother.

The point I'm making with regards to River using non-verbal communication is that it has nothing to do with HER condition and everything to do with HIS. You can't just walk up to someone and say, "Hey, remember that time when we met and pledged eternal love about a week before your twin brother died?" Hell, she might have actually tried that a time or two: how on earth would we know when their interaction is so limited in favor of an otaku and his mommy arguing about pointless ***?

Suppressed memories aren't as simple as, "So this thing happened to you, why don't you remember it?" I have an eidetic memory dating back to when I was 4 years old, but a period of particular misery blanked the best part of 18 months from my childhood. It took a lot of effort for me to even glean what I was keeping hidden and, even now, it exists as intellectual information instead of experiential. My mother occasionally makes a reference to that time period and all I can do is smile and nod because, as far as my brain is concerned, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

I get River. I get Isabelle better, since I'm considerably more like her, but I get River. The plot could have been carried with her being neurotypical. It would not have been meaningfully different. I'd suggest that maybe she's below average in terms of IQ (meaning probably not Aspie but still ASD), but the author specifically references Tony Attwood. I don't strictly care that she is Aspie, either, but it was a plot cul-de-sac and, as I said, it offended the ***out of me the way it wasn't handled.

She probably doesn't know a thing about his brother and the memory block, he doesn't know either afterall...
She cares about their promise but he doesn't remember it and I don't think I have to explain to you how mind-drilling this must be to her.

To me it's obvious why she does what she does, speaking is hard to her so she goes sideways.

Short steps, deep breaths
Everything is alright
Chin up, I can't
Step into the spotlight
She said, "I'm sad,"
Somehow without any words
I just stood there
Searching for an answer
Johnny


Why do my words
Always lose their meaning?
What I feel, what I say
There's such a rift between them
He said, "I can't
Really seem to read you."
I just stood there
Never know what I should do
River


When this world is no more
The moon is all we'll see
I'll ask you to fly away with me
Until the stars all fall down
They empty from the sky
But I don't mind
If you're with me, then everything's alright
If you're with me, then everything's alright
Both

Does she not know about his brother? Is it actually reasonable to assume that?

Think about it: if a 6-year-old kid in your neighborhood got killed, news would get around. But even if she never did get told, which I'll admit could happen, it's not the method of first resort to go to symbolic language when you want to say, "Don't you remember making up constellations?" At least the author made sure to re-introduce the idea of lighthouses so she never has to explain that but...

Ok, it's a story. It's fiction and isn't bounded by things like "What real human beings do." If it'll suit you for me to say that it's totally reasonable for a high-intelligence person to never once in 50 years say something as simple as, "Do you remember when we first met?", I guess I can incur enough brain damage to say that. She is capable of exceptional feats of memory, can express what she does and doesn't like, and is relentlessly logical (like all Aspies are) EXCEPT when it comes to the man she married.

... Still not buying it.

The story could have been salvaged if a more competent writer was involved. The elements by themselves aren't bad, but they're attached so clumsily because they clearly exceed the capacity of the author to achieve his vision. I can think of worse problems to have in the world, like writing ***and thinking it is gold.

To River him not remembering is mind-blowing, and to her it's vital that he gets it by himself, without being told, so she leaves hints trying to lead him there. She becomes very stubborn about it(to the point he's submerged with paper bunnies), and in the end she just fails cause she gives too much importance to how he should remember rather than he remembering the thing itself. It's very silly of her, but still I can relate, I often get lost on details so much that I fail to communicate the bigger picture which could easily solve a quarrel. She's not stupid, but like Isabelle well shows not all Aspergers are the same and she's on a very bad side of the spectrum when it comes to communication.

the reason why I seem so passionate about this is probably more because I've never truely had a chance to discuss Asperger with anyone, than the game itself cause taste be taste

That's a really good point about memory. With my ridiculously comprehensive memory, I get easily frustrated by forgetfulness. I think her reaction is unrealistic, but I may be stuck in a cognitive bias loop (put simply: everyone tends to generalize their own experience as true for everyone else -- you'd imagine someone who knows he is very different from the populace would avoid this defect and you'd be wrong).

I ultimately just wish that there had been more time with Johnny and River. I probably would have far fewer complaints if either a.) the game had been about an hour longer or b.) had cut an hour from Eva and Neil and given to Johnny, River, Nick, Isabelle, and maybe Joey. Also, I totally wouldn't bother being critical of the story and what I see in it as flawed if I didn't think it has the potential to be great. I'm not going to polish a turd, but as a writer and a critic, I can't walk past a diamond in the rough, either.

In spite of ASD affecting about 1% of the population, which is a huge number when put in perspective, I am uncertain that I have ever interacted with another Aspie in real life. I have friends who display some unusual traits but who are still neurotypical. In fact, my best friend is, in many ways, the NT mold from which I was cast (he's a year older than me). I have taught kids with other forms of autism, though. Some people (idiots) think that is pointless, yet they see no reason a deaf person shouldn't learn from a deaf teacher. Meh.

I sometimes forget that the many ways I have used my neurotype are not common for Aspies in general. My personal obsession is with human beings. I want to understand how the hell they work. One of the unusual effects of this has been that I can often anticipate what people mean before they can explain themselves to their confused audience. I've gotten very good at reading between the lines and predicting NT reactions. But I regularly forget that this is a function of my peculiarities and that folks who are really interested in something else have not put anything like the number of hours into the study of psychology and sociology that I have, to say nothing of communication (I speak multiple languages and am fairly adept with mathematics).

So with someone like River, it is frustrating for me because I see her as having the same incredibly powerful tools that I have, but they're turned to a thoroughly different end. I lucked out, much like Isabelle, in that I can imitate normal. Even so, I always appear "off." I was just at a cast party for a concert we just finished and I have a completely blank affect whenever I'm not singing. My friends were ribbing me about it 'cause they don't realize that I only display my thoughts and emotions on my face when I want to, unlike normal folks who have to work to do the opposite.

Anyhow, if you do wanna chat more, feel free to PM me.

I do wish that the game ended differently though -- something of the sort like where the memories of John's very early childhood were restored somehow. I am not sure how this would pan out with him knowing Joey died and all that however then at least he would realise what River was trying to hint to him. While that would be the better ending in my opinion (to be more 'happily ever after anyway'), it wouldn't nearly as tragic or sad as the current ending 'cause well... in the current ending, he never found out about what River was attempting to get across to him and in addition to this there had to be a complete artificial life made for him which makes his actual life story a tragedy all because of those beta-blockers. It does make me wonder what River could have been thinking about this; did she think he just forgot about the first time they actually met at the carnival or that maybe he just wasn't linking that event with herself since John could have believed it was someone else instead? I mean she must have realised he didn't really know who she was when he asked her out on a date in school as since he queried the stuffed toy she has (in which John actually gave her).

While I'd like this ending, I think that (as mentioned earlier in this topic) that isn't what Dr Watts and Dr Rosalene came to do so really this particular ending couldn't really happen without the job being a failure unfortunately. I guess it also means the game couldn't be called "To The Moon" lol.