IiPunch - Monk Guide |
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iiPunch - Monk Guide
Quote: Additionally, I wanted to touch on hand-to-hand weapons separately from the above concern. Unlike other weapon skills, with hand-to-hand skill, as hand-to-hand skill rises, the DMG value rises. For hand-to-hand weapons that we add in the future, we will add weapon skills like with other weapons, and we will continue to update the DMG value by taking this relation to skill into consideration. they specifically addressed that :( They can't even add Zapdos and Sudowoodo to FFXl without making Horlais Peak mobs drop Bonanza kupons!
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what were those kupons? rem ones?
Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai said: » what were those kupons? rem ones? empyrean armor seals lol and sea capes/torques I picked up a Manibozho Jerkin today, which allows my TP set to go from this:
ItemSet 308009 ...to this... ItemSet 308010 Considering I have no Thaumus or Usukane +1, and probably won't for the foreseeable future - is this pretty much my best choice for now? Any worthwhile AH pieces? As Plasm comes in, in what order should I prioritize Manibozho head/feet/legs, the earrings and Asperity neck (and anything else I maybe forgot)? SS set looks like... ItemSet 308012 Personally I would shoot for the Bladeborn / Steelflash Earrings first. They cost 8,000 each and would be an improvement for your tp set / SS set AND can be used for other jobs as well. You're fine with the rancor collar if you want to hang on to it, as asperity necklace is about on par with it. However, you do have to "worry" a bit more now about the damage taken with the harder Adoulin stuff. And as far as the Manibozho legs / feet / hands / head, I went with the legs first. They are an upgrade over Tantra+2 (not sure at what point, but obviously the closer to Rank 15 the better), and can be used for Shijin Spiral too.
Here are my sets. I don't know how to make them appear in the post instead of the link yet...
TP Set ItemSet 291248 Shijin Spiral Set ItemSet 305655 Edit: It worked. I guess it was just lag. Some general comments/corrections on the guide as of today:
Quote: Although one of Monk's greatest drawbacks lies in the lower attack cap that all other one-handed damage dealers face combined with level correction, this is not a significant deterrent in almost all available content. No longer the case. Quote: *Note that when examining Weapon Rank to determine fSTR caps, Hand-to-Hand Skill is not included! However the +3 is. A normal weapon with D 36 would be rank 4. For hand-to-hand, the weapon reaches rank 4 at +33 D. Quote: This is important because your maximum delay reduction is determined from this value! The minimum delay for Hand-to-Hand combat is therefore 96. Somewhat confusingly worded, as it implies the minimum delay for all hand-to-hand weapons is 96, based on the 480 base delay. Minimum delay is 20% of (480 + weapon delay). You explain it better later on. Quote: While Counterstance is in effect, you only receive defense from the VIT calculation (VIT/2), Minne, and the Defense Bonus job trait. Obviously needs to be corrected with the updated formulas. Not mentioned: Tantra Cyclas +1 also increase accuracy by +1 per hit during Impetus; Tantra Cyclas +2 increase accuracy by 1 and crit damage by 1% per hit during Impetus. Oatixur: Quote: Nobody is certain on how exactly this will be obtained yet, but it's probably related to Morimar Delve. Obviously we know how to get them now. Rigors: Quote: An augment path requires nearly 6000 points to max out. At 100k per 10 points given the price of Airlixirs, you're looking at 60M to max out a weapon if you wanted to power through it, which obviously isn't very reasonable for the general population. The drop in the price of airlixirs makes this statement outdated. Current prices (on my server, at least) is about 20k per NQ airlixir, or 1/5 the price you estimated, putting the total cost at 12 million gil. Still expensive, but vaguely more reasonable. Of course it's more efficient to use Airlixir +2s. Three of them at 3.5 mil each is 10.5 million gil. Quote: especially given MNK's ease in capping fSTR. Not quite so easy anymore, actually. With Rigors, you need +72 dStr to cap fStr (+92 with Oatixurs). With mobs getting ever higher base stats (mobs right outside Adoulin having ~110 vit; mobs in delve fractures having ~136 vit; some boss stats pushing 200+), +72 str becomes a rather significant stretch. While that may be becoming less of an issue with some of the newest gear being introduced (eg: Uk'uxkac hat), you still need substantial amounts over current top-end gear sets -- on the order of 50-70, though somewhat alleviated by things like Boost-Str and AF3-boosted Minuets.
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So, defense vs PDT.
We have a lot of PDT available as mnk, but there's one bit that bugs me -- some the PDT gear we have has significantly lower defense than some of the newer gear coming out. PDT is obviously vs physical attacks, which means that defense should also apply in any situation you're considering PDT. So how much defense does it take to provide the equivalent of a given amount of PDT? When figuring this out, the results depend on your existing defense, not on the mob's attack. Going from 400 to 440 defense (10% increase) will have exactly the same percent reduction in damage taken if the mob has 500 attack as if the mob has 1000 attack. The only times it wouldn't would be if the mobs is reaching the attack cap (eg: you're using Counterstance). So then it's a question of scaling across your possible defense values to see what sort of range of impact a given defense increase amounts to. Code
1% 2% 3% 4% 5% 6% 7% 8% 9%
350 4 8 11 15 19 23 27 31 35
375 4 8 12 16 20 24 29 33 38
400 5 9 13 17 22 26 31 35 40
425 5 9 14 18 23 28 32 37 43
450 5 10 14 19 24 29 34 40 45
475 5 10 15 20 26 31 36 42 47
500 6 11 16 21 27 32 38 44 50
525 6 11 17 22 28 34 40 46 52
550 6 12 18 23 29 36 42 48 55
575 6 12 18 24 31 37 44 51 57
600 7 13 19 26 32 39 46 53 60
625 7 13 20 27 33 40 48 55 62
650 7 14 21 28 35 42 49 57 65
675 7 14 21 29 36 44 51 59 67
700 8 15 22 30 37 45 53 61 70
725 8 15 23 31 39 47 55 64 72
750 8 16 24 32 40 48 57 66 75
775 8 16 24 33 41 50 59 68 77
800 9 17 25 34 43 52 61 70 80
For the above table, for a given amount of starting defense on the left, you'd need to add the provided defense values (which are conservatively rounded) to match the PDT value at the top. Probably looking at roughly 375 (no Protect) or 550 (Protect V) for most scenarios. However, for a bit of buffer on the expectation, I'll consider 400 and 600 as the starting values. Gear: Arhat's Jinpachi: 4% PDT, 19 defense. Need 17 to 26 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 45 def or better is probably worth using instead. Options: Uk'uxkaj Cap: 60 defense, 22 vit (71 total defense, extra fStr reduction). Whirlpool Mask: 72 defense. Chocaliztli Mask: 50 defense. Arhat's Jinpachi +1: 6% PDT, 20 defense. Need 26 to 39 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 60 def or better is probably worth using instead. Options: Uk'uxkaj Cap: 60 defense, 22 vit (71 total defense, extra fStr reduction). Whirlpool Mask: 72 defense. Chocaliztli Mask: 50 defense. Adequate if no Protect. Arhat's Gi: 6% PDT, 38 defense. Need 26 to 39 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 77 def or better is probably worth using instead. Options: Matanca Harness: 77 defense, 15 vit (84-85 total defense). Arhat's Gi +1: 9% PDT, 39 defense. Need 40 to 60 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 100 def or better is probably worth using instead. Options: Matanca Harness: 77 defense, 15 vit (84-85 total defense). -- 15 vit is ~4 fStr. It would need to compensate for 2% damage taken to be worth using over Arhat's, which would be for mobs with 200 base damage attacks or lower. Anything significant enough to want to use PDT gear on probably has a higher base damage than that, so this is probably not a good swap. Denali Wristbands: 2% DT, 17 defense. Need 9 to 13 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 30 def or better is probably worth using instead. Options: Manibozho Gloves: 40 defense. Leoht Gloves: 38 defense. Usukane Gote +1: 32 defense. Omodaka Gote: 31 defense. Tenryu Tekko +1: 30 defense. Khepri Wristbands: 30 defense. Melaco Mittens: 3% PDT, 19 defense. Need 13 to 19 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 38 def or better is probably worth using instead. Options: Manibozho Gloves: 40 defense. Aside: The two highest defense hand options (and legs, for that matter) are both designed for ranged attacks. Meh. Buremte Gloves would have trounced any other option, if mnk could wear them :( Darksteel Subligar +1: 3% PDT, 29 defense. Need 13 to 19 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 49 def or better is probably worth using instead. Options: Nahtirah Trousers: 80 defense. Xux Trousers: 58 defense. Manibozho Brais: 51 defense. Abatteur Subligar: 50 defense. Usukane Hizayoroi +1: 50 defense. Thurandaut Boots: 3% PDT, 27 defense, 14 vit (34 effective defense). Need 13 to 19 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 54 def or better is probably worth using instead. (That doesn't count the reduced fStr from the Vit, which should give you roughly 0.5% to 1% more -PDT.) Options: Plumb Boots: 46 defense, 5% PDT. These are the highest def feet mnk can wear (which doesn't beat the Thurandaut threshold), and if you have them you'd use for the PDT anyway. Other gear slots don't tend to have high def options available right now. Not many changes at the moment, but some things to consider for the future as new gear is added. This is about as maxed out a set as I can come up with for pure defense: ItemSet 308396 48% PDT (49% with Wiglen Gorget, or capped in Legion) 7 Vit 341 defense (344-345 with the Vit) 19% haste The more accessible Thurandaut Boots would put it at 22% haste, and you could cap haste with one of the haste hands which are roughly equivalent to Denali. Mollusca Mantle is nearly the same as Shadow Mantle for long-term averages of physical damage, and you may want to have it for the MDT option in one slot as well. However, in doing this we've changed our baseline. With Protect V, we'd be at somewhere in the 680-700 defense range (depending on race and a couple gear choices and day of week), which bumps up the required defense differential to match a given PDT value. We can also consider the possibility of food such as Rabbit Pie, which adds another 100 defense to the picture. In general, if listed options are borderline they probably start falling slightly behind. However most of the top gear is far enough ahead that it stays viable even at a higher base defense.
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pchan said: » Cerberus.Taint said: » pchan said: » I'd say natenn and taint coming here to troll my month's only post is proof that there is nothing to do ingame. Reread my first post. I agreed with you about gearing. Your 2nd post is HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE. There are plenty of good drops from Delve and Tojil is the best way to Plasma farm. Whirlpool Mask best Max ACC TP head best SS WS piece. Tsurumaru is the best weapon in game. Upukirex for DRG (angon/Surge Jump and pierce weak modes) Hurch'lan Sash for Max ACC TP. Even if you just want Oat, you might have to kill Tojil 3 times. MNK is not the best DD right now btw. It is extremely rare for MNK to win a parse on any of the Delve bosses.  I count 43% PDT in that set, perhaps you were counting Mollusca Mantle in?
Woops, yep. I had Mollusca Mantle in there first, then changed it later. I'll put it back just for simplicity.
Also edited the Thurandaut Boots note, since I forgot to account for the Vit on them. Edit 2: Also updated notes on Uk'uxkaj Cap Further notes: The model is incomplete, and probably wrong in at least some of its conclusions. I'll write up a revised version later.
Think like whoa oatixur will become d126 +228 skill coming soon >.>
OK.
Defense and PDT, as factors of damage reduction, scale differently. With defense, the more you have, the less valuable additional defense is. With PDT, the more you have, the more valuable additional PDT is. That's because defense acts as a divisor in the calculation, while PDT acts as a subtraction. The order of operations doesn't matter, between the two. +25% defense is -20% damage. Apply that alongside -25% PDT and you either go 100 > 80 > 60, or 100 > 75 > 60, depending on which is applied first. As they both end up in the same spot, we can ignore that factor. So, the analysis I did earlier has one major flaw: it assumes PDT starts from 0. Since there are a number of slots where there are no relevant defense items to compete against direct PDT, obviously you're going to be starting with -some- amount, which increases the value of any additional PDT that gets added. So, a few additional charts to give an idea of the progression based on starting PDT values (spoilered for size): Next we need to figure out where we're starting from. Black Belt - Pretty much guaranteed a spot, given PDT and high haste. Dark Ring x2 - Figure this at a minimum. Will use two 6% rings. Twilight Torque - Will use this to avoid the +MDT on the Wiglen. Thurandaut Boots - Easily accessible, with extra haste and vit. That gives 25%. 30% if we add in a Mollusca Mantle. Will use that as the baseline. So our def differences need to win on the 30% base chart. I'll pull out just the 400/600/800 base defense numbers. Code
Start: 30%
1% 2% 3% 4% 5% 6% 7% 8% 9%
400 6 12 18 25 31 38 45 52 60
600 9 18 27 37 47 57 67 78 89
800 12 24 36 49 62 76 89 104 119
Our main three pieces to consider are head, hands and legs, which have 6%, 3% and 2% PDT options. Legs needs at most 36 defense over Darksteel Subligar to be better, which means 65 defense. Nahtirah still easily beats that. Denali Wristbands would need at least 18 more defense, which is 35 total. Manibozho is still ahead of that. However in high def situations, it's mostly a tie, where you'd need 41 defense to match, and Manibozho has 40. Melaco Mittens need at least a 45 defense alternative to replace them, which isn't availble to mnk, so they could stay. Arhat's Jinpachi +1 needs at least +57 def (77 total) to replace it. Whirlpool Mask doesn't quite cut it, though Uk'uxkaj should still be better at the 600 def level (the extra vit, which lowers mob fStr, compensates for the small difference in def). Now we iterate again. We'd already judged that there are no current options to displace the Arhat's Gi +1. If we add that, and bump Twilight to Wiglen just to make it an even 40%, we'll look at those three slots again. Code
Start: 40%
1% 2% 3% 4% 5% 6% 7% 8% 9%
400 7 14 22 29 37 45 53 62 71
600 11 21 32 43 55 67 80 93 106
800 14 28 43 58 73 89 106 124 142
Nahtirah still easily wins vs Darksteel Subligar +1. Manibozho hands is still a small bit ahead of Denali at the 600 def level, but is insufficient vs Melaco Mittens. Uk'uxkaj appears to be basically tied with Arhat's if the 22 vit reduces the mob's base damage by 2% (ie: mob has a base damage of ~250). Whirlpool Mask is a weaker option now, only worth maybe the equivalent of a 5% PDT headpiece (or 4% as you push towards the PDT cap), though it's probably worth using in a hybrid set if you don't have Uk'uxkaj. So, the margins are much smaller that previously considered, and previously marginal items are discarded. Competitive items: Nahtirah legs - Always worth using vs the PDT options. Uk'uxkaj - Probably worth using as a replacement for Arhat's. The marginal difference in damage is compensated for by the large offensive bonuses. Manibozho hands - Probably not worth using. They don't beat Melaco Mittens, and if you're using Denali you probably have to consider the MDT side as well, which these wouldn't affect. So in the end, we have two pieces of gear that seem to be worth using as defensive replacements for previous PDT options, and one optional hybrid piece. Also, for non-mnk jobs, Buremte hands easily beats any PDT options as well.
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Seems alot of the def values on 100+ gear is changing on the test server today. For example, Whirlpool Mask now has DEF:102, Manibozho gloves jumped up to DEF:63 (and gained 4% Haste!).
(Thanks to Slycer on BG forums for translating the stats.) Additional note: It looks like there will be a pretty significant bump in armor defense in the next patch, based on what's on the test server. For example, Manibozho Beret going up to 80 defense, 4 vit, 25 HP. As such, a more detailed look at things will be necessary once more info is available.
Edit: Heh, beaten. Worth noting that these all are getting enhanced stats whenever the test server stuff his real servers, so I'd bet it kills most of the PDT options that are still superior/on the fence.
edit: beaten, by a lot. Had this up from earlier and just now refreshed it. So, there's a pretty massive increase in stats on gear in the next update. Going to crawl through and see what I can find. Only dealing with main armor slots, and only stats relevant to this discussion.
Head: Whirlpool Mask: Def 102, Vit 22, HP 38 Manibozho Beret: Def 80, Vit 4, HP 25 Uk'uxkaj Cap: Def 60, 22 vit (no current changes noted yet) Body: Manibozho Jerkin: Def 93, Vit 16, HP 31 Hands: Manibozho Gloves: Def 63, Vit 14, HP 13 Thurandaut Gloves: Def 40, Vit 10 Legs: Nahtirah Trousers: Def 114, Vit 16, HP 47 Manibozho Brais: Def 80, Vit 4, HP 25 Xux Trousers: Def 72, Vit 8, HP 15 Feet: Manibozho Boots: Def 51, HP 7 Thurandaut Boots: Def 32, Vit 14, PDT 3% Conclusions: Manibozho Beret is about on par with Arhat's +1, and definitely a worthwhile replacement due to the other stats gained. Whirlpool Mask completely trumps it. Arhat's Gi +1 still seems the best choice for body. Thurandaut Gloves seem to be about on par with Melaco Mittens. Manibozho Gloves appear to be the best defensive option, though. Any of the above legs beats Darksteel Subligar +1, though Nahtirah remains the best. Thurandaut Boots remain the best foot option, aside from Plumb. Both Manibozho Gloves and Nahtirah Trousers also get some nice offensive stats that aren't ranger-only, so they gain additional value over the raw defense consideration. For example, Manibozho Gloves get 4% haste, giving Whirlpool Mask + Manibozho Gloves + Black Belt + Thurandaut Boots = 26% haste, so using Arhat's Gi +1 and Nahtirah Trousers isn't an impediment there. Note that with the defense on all the newer gear increasing, that also impacts the value of the defense difference. However there's enough of a margin with the above that the conclusions still seem valid.
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Sorry to derail, but I assume I want to use Yaoyotl Gloves over spurrina gages -3% pdt?
29 Def PDT -3% spell intterupt 20% vs. 84 Def VIT 25 Right? For just the defense, yes, I'd go with Yaoyotl.
How about Desultor Tassets (A.S.A. pants)
Def: 34 Physical Dmg. Taken -4% Where do you have these placed? Ragnarok.Goldnboy said: » How about Desultor Tassets (A.S.A. pants) Def: 34 Physical Dmg. Taken -4% Where do you have these placed? 99 def pants should always beat Desultors (46% base PDT, 800 base def), not counting fStr considerations. 77 def pants should beat them in the more general case (600 base def, comparing at the 30%-40% base PDT level). It looks like Xux and Manibozho should be roughly on par with them, while Nahtirah should beat them. Fenrir.Motenten said: » OK. Defense and PDT, as factors of damage reduction, scale differently. With defense, the more you have, the less valuable additional defense is. With PDT, the more you have, the more valuable additional PDT is. That's because defense acts as a divisor in the calculation, while PDT acts as a subtraction. PDT is not more valuable if you stack it, it has constant effect regardless of how much you stacked. And unless we are talking about hundred of defense difference, the defense effect cannot be considered as negative returns. pchan said: » Fenrir.Motenten said: » OK. Defense and PDT, as factors of damage reduction, scale differently. With defense, the more you have, the less valuable additional defense is. With PDT, the more you have, the more valuable additional PDT is. That's because defense acts as a divisor in the calculation, while PDT acts as a subtraction. PDT is not more valuable if you stack it, it has constant effect regardless of how much you stacked. And unless we are talking about hundred of defense difference, the defense effect cannot be considered as negative returns. 
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pchan said: » Fenrir.Motenten said: » OK. Defense and PDT, as factors of damage reduction, scale differently. With defense, the more you have, the less valuable additional defense is. With PDT, the more you have, the more valuable additional PDT is. That's because defense acts as a divisor in the calculation, while PDT acts as a subtraction. PDT is not more valuable if you stack it, it has constant effect regardless of how much you stacked. And unless we are talking about hundred of defense difference, the defense effect cannot be considered as negative returns. If a move does 1k and you have 25% PDT, you take 750. If you add 5% PDT, you take 700, which is actually a 6.66% reduction from the 750 you would have taken. I never liked this way of thinking about it, but it becomes relevant when you are doing piece-by-piece comparisons.
It always removes a fixed amount of damage. Going from 50% to 25% removes 250 damage just like going from 1K to 750. Let's say it this way : it has "increasing" returns on the % of damage taken but not on the damage taken. Let's put it this way : if you take 4 damage per hit, 25% pdt makes it 3 and 50% pdt makes it 2. You are saying that your your% damage taken skyrockets ; sure ; but you still took 1 less damage.
And no it has nothing to do with haste. Haste as a constant return on delay but an increasing return on DPS. Natenn being stupide as usual haha. |
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