IiPunch - Monk Guide

If he'd argue with facts, I'd be more than happy to rebuke them. He's doing nothing but state the same thing over and over again, with essentially no support besides his own conviction.

If asking for facts, numbers, or support is condescending, then any unequal debate is by definition going to be so. The majority of his posts attack wording or search for any miniscule thing to attack instead of defending his standpoint. That's not an insult, it's not condescension by intent, it's simply an observation.

If you were masochistic enough to reread this whole shitshow, you can find at least a dozen examples where I backed up my points with the mathematics behind it and illustrated why my statements are true. He hasn't made a single point that's defensible by more than opinion.

If that isn't condescension then what is?
Also the first time you and me ever even had any exchange at all you literally initiated the exchange by calling me clueless. I had never even said a word to you. And I've seen you do it other people as well.

All it is saying to anyone who knows anything about people is you have issues irl. you're exposing yourself, and those issues.

That's certainly not condescension either, now is it?

I won't deny that I frequently make condescending posts. My forum name even implies a penchant for argument. I've got no problem admitting it, I've posted similarly for over a decade(Thorny on BG, another name indicating my abrasion). If someone is open to contrary opinion and acknowledges points made, I would certainly not be rude to them. If they argue like a wall while presenting no information, it makes me frustrated which results in less than polite posts.

That doesn't mean anything about my life, though. Internet interactions strongly vary from real ones, but if you want to think I'm some sort of malcontent you're more than welcome to your opinion.

I am under the impression he's incapable of using a spreadsheet or sim, because despite being presented with numbers dozens of times and having both tools readily available he's remained unwilling to provide any to support his argument. He states that it's right, repeatedly and adamantly, but is unwilling to make the most basic efforts to support it. If he were able to use those tools, one would strongly suspect that he would have done so to support his argument. Otherwise, he's wasting all this time when he could have simply ended it pages ago by using numbers to support his case. It's much easier to argue opinion than it is to argue fact.

If this argument were based on facts, it would have been over in 1 page.

For this debate, I've generally accepted your numbers and held to my position.

For example, this 2% DPS gain we've been debating--I'm pretty sure you picked that number, whether from a simulator or from the air. For you, a 2% increase in DPS is never worth it. For me, it often is.

You're ignoring the fact that a difference in damage that small doesn't necessarily correlate to any difference in time. Both sets have the same amount of time between attack rounds, for a 2% difference to change the effective length of an encounter it would have to change the number of attack rounds.

This means that on most smaller mobs, you will not observe a difference in killspeed by changing your DPS 2%. This is where the simulation excels and the spreadsheet falls behind: The spreadsheet assumes you are constantly engaged and calculates how much damage you'll do per second while engaged. The simulation calculates your actual delay and mob's hp as it goes, painting a real picture of what would happen. That is used to calculate your damage.

If you were looking at solely that single apex crab example, my guess is neither set would actually have the highest DPS. Regardless of losses in TP phase, the final skillchain will overkill the mob. Thus, the set with the fastest TP gain will likely win despite all other variables. This is why, not only is a simulation more accurate, but a DPS value doesn't necessarily correlate to an increase in speed. (As a side note, that means adding skillchains to the simulation, which I will mention to Austar.)

If you understand all of this, and still believe a 2% increase to be worth more than the m.eva difference, I'm shocked. I can't understand why you'd have that viewpoint, but it's certainly your choice to do so.

Out of curiosity, how little would the DPS increase have to be for you to support the defensive option? Do you feel that making your party members' jobs easier is entirely irrelevant?

Directly - yes. But it's not to escalate but to hopefully get things back into normalcy. Best way to stop someone from swinging is to swing back.
You know your ***, so just debate it without getting personal.

Now on topic, question is - does cherrywhine's proposed set indeed result in 2% increase in DPS? if so.. then how is that not arguing facts? If it doesn't please correct.

+1. nicely explained.
the rest didn't need to be posted though lol

With the Ken+1 stuff costing 300m each, why not start comparing DM augs? I mean 3 QA MIN on herc is not hard to obtain, should easily see one or more in 100 DM, which is still a fraction of the cost. I bet that would be winning by more than 2%?

696 DM augments into my herc set and you wouldn't believe how stupid silly the augments I've gotten are...
SE really needs to take Pet augments out of the game.

Several pages ago, I stated that I was using 2% as an example. It is more generous than the actual numbers indicate on either spreadsheet or simulation. I generally do my math with a slight favor to the person arguing against me, to invalidate any minor nitpicks.

At the time I picked the example, using the most current simulation that was posted in public, I was seeing a difference of 1.2%. I don't want to state numbers I can't support and Austar seems afk, so waiting until he returns so I can get a list of latest changes as well as the latest version of the simulation to produce a revised number.

Given his calculations several pages ago were on point, the difference between NQ kendatsuba legs/feet and Bhikku Hose+1 / Anchorite's gaiters+3 is:

Spharai: 0.268%
Vereth: 0.857%
Godhands: 0.327%
Jolt: -0.070%

(Rounding to whole number on dps and 5th decimal place on ratio).

Given that information, using an approximation of the value of HQ's extra TA and critrate, I am inclined to believe HQ handily beat the mixed set. However, as stated, I am waiting to receive the latest version of the simulation and won't state solid numbers without supporting evidence.

Best is best. Which is what we, or at least I, aspire to work towards, or, at the very least, work out with the help of everyone else here on this guide.
Interestingly, DM augments might begin to fall away from BiS, like they have due to the Ken. set for SAM.


If my job is to DPS, even 1 more would have value to me. I'm not making my party members' jobs easier by holding back from my main function.
With the exception of fights which require a more defensive approach, of which I can't think of any I've fought. We've beaten everything we've aspired to with exhilaration and relief, but not really the overwhelming stress you are describing that would require this gear.

And that is why we'll never agree. From a practical point of view, having been responsible for every role in every fight in the game, I see much more value in reliability than I do in damage. Maybe other group dynamics see it differently, maybe your WHMs even enjoy being busier. Might be more fun to try to top parse. As a pragmatist, it makes no sense to me.

As far as I'm concerned, unless I'm fighting something that's completely castrated and unable to damage me, I would have no second thoughts about sacrificing damage up to perhaps 10% for that amount of magic evasion. The only fights in the game that have below 25% leeway in terms of buff duration or fight duration when properly prepared are the master trials. I wouldn't even be surprised if MTs could be done 25% faster than the time limit.

Not an argument or an attempt to change your mind, simply an explanation of my mindset and observations on the game as a whole.

apex crabs highest level have 1163 evasion and 1310 defense. with bard and geo support, artificially capping fstr and ddex (which favors not ken sets):



first is ken+1 x3 with hose and gaiters
second is ken+1 x5
last is cherry set but with same accessories used in the other two

it should be even lower for that one since i made a typo when adding the gear and its acc instead of attack on its stats

Having spent upwards of 600mil on dark matter augs, I have to call you out on this one. To get quad 2 is rare, to get quad 3 is likely in the 1~2% range. Saying QA 3 is not hard to obtain is absolutely false and misleading.

Just silly how good jolt are in the program. We are sure its working correctly?

5 more base dmg, 10 more delay, 10 more str, 10 more vit, 3 less accuracy, 90 less attack vs spharai

13% triple damage on first hit of mainhand only sounds big, but when you consider MNK is sitting on nearly 50% triple attack and has kick attacks as well you realize that it's only actually proccing on roughly 3% of melee hits

geo buffs presumably includes fury/frailty/dia2, which should cap pdif on apex mobs and throws out all of spharai's attack

napkin math doesn't seem very far off from what it's showing, i trust it

high base damage, chunk of accuracy, bonus str for wsc. relic and empyrean damage only applies to main hand and only the first hit so relic triple damage is not that amazing. attack is one of the easiest things you can do without, i'm not surprised it is that good at all.

If QA3 is 1-2%... thats 50-100 DM augs @ 1mil each is 50-100m.... Kinda what I said. I would lean more to the 1% side though and put DM at high end of 1500k and your still looking at 150m/QA3 aug. Thats MUCH cheaper overall, also gives you 99 chances at other very cool augs such as FC8, WSD10% etc that all are BiS too. A much better gil/usability ratio than 300m on kenda stuff.

I have a QA3 set for my drk/war (fing overwrote body one sleepy distracted night ><) and I found its about that too. Hell QA3 is a walk in the park compared to the damn 8 stp 30+ acc Im a year trying to get on body.

When we are talking about a 2 BILLION gil set.... lets realize that gil is not an issue nor is the persons time really. You arent getting that set without living on ffxi.

i don't think just having 3 QA on a herc piece is going to make it better than kendatsuba or anything really, you still need a decent chunk of accuracy or another fern stat

maybe you could get it with the 300m, maybe you couldn't, but either way it has 0 resale value and a chance you just threw out all of the gil.. the kendatsuba can be resold anytime which makes it a much less painful purchase than abjuration gear or dark matters

and even if you come up with same damage, you lost all the defensives.. so you need significantly better damage for the DM augs to be worthwhile

Well lets get real then because I have read what like 3 pages of strait ***storming on Cherry for saying a 2% increase is worth it and other saying its not....

Why even get a REAM now? Jolt is only ~6% less dps but has a massive 15 counter (18 HQ) so toss out them vere/godhands/glanz...

jolt+full ken mnks, or gtfo.

I have a second pair of legs and hands +1 I've been trying to sell forever.. if anyone wants..let me know ; ;
Also have a pair of Ratri Feat+1 going.

*** yeah Az! Keeping it real!

that's vs apex mobs, if attack is uncapped the difference is going to be a ton larger.. counter isn't the universal defensive boost that it used to be with so much of damage taken being TP moves and 'special' melee

does appear that MNK RMEA have lost quite a bit of their luster though, and could potentially be worse gil:improvement than HQ ken pieces at this point.. lol

given the update notes specifically mention updating dmg/delay on weapons though, probably best not to make any big decisions for the next week since it's a pretty solid guess it'll be h2h weapons getting adjusted

Azagarth-
-our server dark matters are 1.3-1.5m. Upwards of 2m if there's no campaign.
-I'm referencing your statement "QA 3 is not hard to obtain".

I'm not here to question gear choice, simply starting it's misleading to suggest QA3 is "not hard to obtain".

except he wasn't even talking about a 2% increase. he's talking about less than half of a percent increase or in some situations a loss of dps

Ya lately they have been higher, I did 50 last month when I bought 4 stacks at 1m/per.... and got 5 yesterday at 1.2m lol. Just got to hunt the bargains! There are also a few people that farm it regularly for gil too, I am sure just find who they are and cust a deal buying in bulk. Oftentimes Its better to sell 25% discount fast, then hold up your ah slotts for a week to sell a stack. Like any business :D

6% is actually pretty massive in FFXI :p. I've seen people hinting COR offhanding degen +1 or odium is gimp/lazy/terrible and blurred +1 or bust, and yet blurred +1 is only 2% ahead of odium, 1.5% ahead of degen +1 with buffs.

If 1.5% increase is the indication of gimp/lazy/terrible, then 6% dps gap is as wide as pacific ocean!

kinda the point.... plus thats NQ, HQ will be that much closer :D

At this point in the game everything is so easy anyhow, idc much what people use IF they know how to use what they got. Let people go all nuts over stuff like HQ adhemar before too, but when you get down to it that stuff is same 1-2% increases over NQ too at top buffs.

Theres always a difference in what's best and whats acceptable. Less than 5 ppl per server really have "the best" on jobs right now, so its more a question of what work best for the least resources used.

I personally wouldn't be spamming 2 billion gil in DM augs like I mentioned, but I also wouldnt be getting 5/5 on the +1 su3 sets either. For those that are in the position to do so, I think gil/dps is better spent on DM though. regardless both are great and id not deny a party with someone because they had Ken+1 lol.

Would be more interesting to 99% of the playerbase to do these tests with NQ ken set, and normal mnk sets like what the guides gear posts have. I suggest running those numbers to see what the new bandwagon mnks should be jumping on and aiming for.

Yep, I totally understand that position. And I 100% respect and agree with your last sentence there.


I'm surprised by these results and would like to learn as much about and from it as possible.
I wish my full-set, accessories and all, were used in the test, but we can all agree those shouldn't play a big role.
The TA across the HQ Ken. and HQ Adhemar/Samnuha used are roughly the same. HQ Ken. legs have two more TA but Samnuha have three more DA.
So, one of two things must be happening in the simulation--Either accuracy isn't being capped in the Adhemar/Samnuha set or the 18% Crit. rate is overpowering 6% Crit. damage/ 14 STP.
This is a very interesting conclusion, and one I haven't seen before!
I suspect that doing some/all of the below would shift things around more to where I expected them to be:
Adding COR rolls (SAM/Rogue if one COR, WAR/Allies' or Chaos [or something defensive, if needed] if two CORs)
Adding BoG Fraility, as, against Apex Crabs, the bubble would last until BoG was up again, so it could be full-timed.

If that party set-up sounds crazy, it's just to really see what any DPS could do... Tank to skill chain with said DPS plus COR, COR, BRD, and GEO. The GEO could use Indi-Refresh, and, with Ballads, handle curing CP mobs no problem.

I had changed my esteem of Achorite gaiters +3 based upon recent discussion on this forum. With HQ Ken. feet coming ahead, I wonder if Herculean boots with above average Acc/Attk and TA 4 are better.


I'll be perfectly honest and admit I'm not really sure what "Attack during "Counter" varies in proportion to Attack of target" does, but, without its Aftermath, the only thing Spharai has going for it is the 13% chance of triple damage on the first main-hand swing.
Jolt Counters actually have a higher increased Counter rate than even AG Spharai.
The enhanced counter damage is bound to occur more often than the triple damage. That's my thinking anyway.

your acc is definitely not capped. and that's the lowest evasion apex mob with evasion listed on bg so you won't cap on harder things eithe. the only accessory i changed was dediton. and that particular run i had an extra 36 acc on your set instead of 36 attack.