For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

BiS options are:

Aeonic / Twashtar

Twashtar / Taming Sari

Vajra I'd consider the 2nd best mainhand, but it's a useless offhand, and as such aeonic will replace it and make it almost entirely useless.

The 4 big daggers are really well balanced right now. Mandau is generally considered the worst, but not tremendously so, and it's still way better than using other knives. The disparity between these 4 will depend on your playstyle and situational stuff (taking advantage of SCs, Amnesia, how your gear is, etc).

MANDAU: Actually the most effective if you can't WS or use AM, but has the least overall potential since it doesn't really excel at anything. Mercy Stroke is not bad for a strong Grav closer. AM1 is just as potent as AM3, so you don't have to build to 3000% for Mercy Stroke.

VAJRA: The real power of this weapon isn't Aftermath, but rather the boost to SA/TA and Mandalic (which will regularly overtake Rudra's). Highest WS/SC potential, especially for closing Light with Mandalic. Its power is greatly diminished if you can't utilize SA or TA.

TWASHTAR: The only one worth offhanding, for which it's the best choice. Its potential relies entirely on getting AM3 and multihits. Doesn't offer as much WS damage though, and becomes the worst if you for some reason never bothered to use AM.

AENEAS: Best for spamming WSs. The Aftermath and Ultimate Skillchain are best used if you're actually coordinating SCs. Exenterator still sucks though, so getting AM is kind of a compromise. Weaker than Vajra for SA/TA, but stronger for unstacked Rudra's. Least expensive to make, at least.

For stacked RS, NQ Lustratio vs Darraigner's? Cerberus seems to have a distinct lack of HQ options.

Lustratio.

Yes.

The one where I have 10% DA 47% TA without AM3.

Can anyone share a current Mercy Stroke set? Thanks!

You're missing the point that Vajra's power comes from boosting Mandalic and getting SA/TA bonuses. Unless you're getting BoG Idris Frailty full-time or fighting trivial enemies, a low TP Vajra Mandalic is comparable a low TP Aeneas Rudra's. The difference between the two daggers then falls onto their other bonuses.

Even when defense is minimal and you're using Rudra's, Vajra will always outperform Aeneas on SA/TA WSs. Vajra has greater potential if your playstyle consists of more than just spamming Rudra's.

Aeneas is a great dagger, though I wouldn't call it cheap since merc price is 400 mil, and even if you do it, can take up to two months of showing to every ls event to get one. 4 step solo skillchain is ridiculous damage, thing is most things never live through it being able to unleash 99k umbral is nasty.

On the flipside, I agree with Jean about the merits of Vajra. I've also said before, replacing a lot of multihit with STP can get another 250 dps or so on the spreadsheet if you have am3 up. So an AM3 focused set can do a lot for Vajra.

Adding 30% or 60% crit damage to your SA or SATA is amazing, especially with the 60% attack boost Mandalic offers. I've farmed umbral marrow with my Vajra friend, and it's very easy to kill the shadow lord now this way, he applies TH and builds up TP, then I Volt Strike for the long stun and to setup his close of bully SA Mandalic. He goes from about 70% hp to dead no worrying about clones, 100% of the time. He tries soloing it on DNC and said he ends up wiping sometimes still due to having to deal with the death chance and clones, plus it's the shadow lord, darkness won't do as much as a light skillchain. Maybe if you put idris geo mule on it, you can get the same results, but this was without any frailty/fury etc.

The only thing I wish is that crit damage wasn't limited to 100%, if you SATA on thief with Vajra you prob are able to hit cap, most the time on THF you don't want to stack both anyway though, wastes a lot of damage potential but having the ability to do big spike damage at the cost of damage over time is also useful.

The bonus damage to SA/TA from Vajra is actually calculated independently from Crit Damage and WSD. The only other piece of gear with the same bonus is Toutatis's Cape. Likewise, the bonus to Mandalic (or Mandau's Mercy Stroke bonus) are unique and multiplied separately.

Aeneas is an extremely powerful dagger, and for more than just THF, but Vajra has greater potential. Even for SCs, Vajra is likely going to hit the damage cap under the same circumstances that Aeneas will, and more so if you use Mandalic. Also, using Exenterator is quite a hit to your damage.

Ah ok Jean, the wiki was changed a while back to state it was crit damage bonus on the SA and TA boost, I didn't look to see who changed it but assumed it was based on testing, if it's wrong go ahead and change it to what you stated, it'd be great if it were a different term.

On Exenterator, I've been meaning to make a set for it, it can't crit and has low ftp, the only thing it has going for it is high ws stat modifier from agi and multiple hits, it definitely will rank behind evisc, rudra and mandalic though. It is easier to hit dmg cap with Aeneas 4 step self chain your base damage only needs to be about 30k from the ws to achieve it, but you're right in many situations you can do capped damage w/ Vajra too.

I disagree with the generalizations you're making. I'd argue that the circumstances where you can make use of Vajra's aftermath are rare. The SATA boosts are good but you also need to consider that the TP Bonus from Aeneas can achieve the same affect to some capacity. Less TP saved for a SATA WS means more WS to recover that damage. The 10 Store TP on Aeneas is huge and also often overlooked. I don't bother with Exenterator because I never use THF for anything that isn't dead in less than 4 WS or where skillchains get resisted.

I think what this boils down is what nearly every RMEA discussion boils down to - people preach about the weapon they have. We don't have the analytical tools to objectively determine with RMEA is best in most specific situations. Even if we did, each weapon will perform differently depending on the situation. I think the best we conclude is that Mandau is the least useful of them all and after that it becomes very difficult to say.

I'm largely the only DD I run with, the fights where I rely on SA/TA for damage is few and far between. I WS 10+ times in a minute each fight, two of which get boosted by Vajra, all of which get boosted by Aeneas. Only the rare fights where I'd consider the SA/TA bonus significant you have:

Maju: Since you don't WANT to SC you're more focused on SA/TA WS spikes, I usually swap over to Twash/Taming for the higher ACC though. But Vajra > Aeneas for this fight.

Enriys: Honestly, only gotten to do this fight once. But if you're able to balance SA and TA with sleeps you're able to balance it at low TP, so Aeneas is pretty significant as well, but this is pretty much the ultimate Vajra fight.

Old Shuck: When it's leveled up damage is almost exclusively from SA and TA WS. But this comes when I'm lowmanning this and things don't go well (sleepga/breakga lands through vex).

Almost every other fight I'd give to Aeneas. Vajra has a niche role, sure, but as an overall Aeneas is certainly superior to it. Like I said in my ranking, Vajra is the 2nd best mainhand in the game, it just sucks for offhand, so if you're aiming for your best daggers it's going to be Aeneas/Twashtar. Vajra is a more accessible dagger though, so that also helps it out.

For Erinys, I think there are two parts of the fight. When you have a lot of TP wings in the beginning and WS at 2000 TP or more (assuming you have a good Store TP build.) Vajra performs better for those WS. Eventually you run out of wings (or don't, depending on how many THFs you have and wing cycling). If using Rudra's Storm with less than 1662~ TP (1412~ with Moonshade) then the boost from TP Bonus +500 adds more damage than Vajra's SATA bonus. With an optimal set up (fast kill) Vajra will be better I think it's entirely possible for Aeneas to outperform it in that fight depending on how long it takes.

Edit: I forgot about offhanding the magian dagger. If you have that, then Vajra is going to win every time.

You're forgetting this part:
And maybe you are full-timing Idris Frailty, I don't know how if you roll with multiple GEOs or if you use Revitalizers a lot or something. Point is that Aeneas's main strength over Vajra is boosting low TP Rudra's. Using Mandalic at 3000% for AM3 isn't a big damage hit (or none at all if defense is very high), and you're probably making Light with it too.

There is a lot of that, I suppose, which is why I prefaced my list above with the fact that the daggers are overall well balanced and that the difference in performance depends largely on playstyle/strategy. I do think it's worth noting that both Vajra and Aeneas rely on WS damage/frequency, especially when used with skillchains. This is in contrast to a more white damage dependent build with Twashtar or Mandau.

Not crit damage (though that's already been pointed out), and I believe it caps at either 40% or 50%.


And AF3 hands.


https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108199-Random-Facts-Thread-Other?p=6702639&viewfull=1#post6702639

You can try bugging him again if you want a more definitive answer. I stopped caring.


I chuckled. It's not even close.



Aeneas for mindless Rudra spamming (something good is on tv/youtube), Vajra for everything else, because store tp and acc gear and mandalic stab usage.

What gear differences would you make between standard/aeneas usage and Vajra?

How about tweak my gear:

ItemSet 344092

What do I switch to make Vajra the superior weapon for me?

You sure? Raider's Hands +1/+2 were said to give a boost to the DEX base damage formula, not a straight % boost. Would be weird if the ilevel versions deviated from that, but I'd believe it if that was verified.

Sorry, you're right, my mistake. Shouldn't have made such a hastey post.

I thought Toutatis's Cape but now I can't even remember what the results are.

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/128484-Triple-Attack-Damage

At the end, if someone wants to work through the math.

Point is, it allows more flexibility in different fights. For instance, since you lowman, you understand that sometimes, your acc comes up short. Aeneas basically locks you into using one WS, at a specific TP range, in specific gear set, or else it'd be wasteful and its primary strength would be cut into.

Thanks for the link, but he basically says it could be either so how can you say for sure? I'd rather it's not crit damage since that caps, I'd just like to know what it is though. Also if it's 30% boost, why would SA + TA be a 40 or 50% boost?

That link shows testing for triple attack damage. What he means is the sneak attack +10, which I don't know if was tested or not on if it's is a % to sneak attack and how that works out in the end. As far as I can tell there's not solid testing to confirm whether vajra or toutatis's cape works as crit dmg or as it's own term and testing that I was linked is confused that it could be either if you give them different values.

The only one I'm relatively sure on is the sneak attack damage hands add to base damage and it's pretty terrible, but that vajra is definitely a % boost and I'm pretty sure Toutatis's cape is as well, the question is if it's applied in it's own term, or crit damage as the wiki, what was said here, what was priorly said on the wiki all conflict. The only testing I was linked said "it could be either", so unless someone has conclusive testing the answer is "we don't know".

I don't have a Vajra but a very easy test to know if it's crit damage or not, you can cap crit damage in abyssea. You'd still have to setup the test properly, but if you can show that you are at 100% crit damage and not able to get more out of SA or TA boosted Vajra then it's crit damage, if you still do get more out of it, then it's not.

What? Vajra is the one that locks you into a certain WS, as it is vastly inferior at everything but Mandalic.

Aeneas is built around making a multi-step SC, I have far more flexibility with the dagger.

Also, on this vs that, I'm gonna sit out >.> tell me when math and testing comes back lol

This vs that is the application of math and testing, Verda!

The link I posted was in regards to asking about why bgwiki's vajra entry was changed to crit damage. Byrth answered, but I couldn't make heads or tails of it. I'm just linking it so you know questions have been asked, even if it didn't lead to anything

As for the cap, it was brought up by whats-his-face who was in love with his spreadsheet. He brought it up, I tested it for 5 minutes and didn't find anything contrary, so it is what it is. I could always do a more thorough test if anyone cares enough.


Locking yourself to one WS only pertains to the Aeneas, not the Vajra.

The Vajra's flexibility comes from having multiple strengths, whether aftermath (which adds flexibility to gear selection), or propping up mandalic stab or SA/TA bonus. If you find yourself falling short on one of its legs, the other two are still there.

Aeneas has practically one strength, because no one seriously takes advantage of the aeonic aftermath. I can't remember the last time I timed Exenterator going off at 2900 so my Rudra->Rudra =>Darkness skillchain would do an extra 9% damage. Alternatively, you could pop off Exen at 1900TP, and your Evis > Rudra (or vice versa) > Rudra skillchain would do more damage.

If you want to go that far, why not just use the Vajra, then do something like MStab > Evis > Rudra > SARudra, then repeat closing with TARudra. You'll do more damage, without having to close with MStab (going back to the dagger having multiple strengths), and you won't have to put up aftermath again because aeonic aftermath wears off after triggering once. And you can do it in acc/pdt/mostly whatever gear.

While we're on the subject, I'm finding demeriting TA and having two low timers in SA/TA quite fun.

Just because you do not execute the weapon properly does not mean the weapon is the issue.

If you're in a situation where you want to utilize aeonic aftermath (yes, it happens) the easy solution is:

Exenterator > Rudra > Evisc > Rudra. Depending on defense of the target and if you can stack the 2nd Rudra this can easily net you a 99999 SC damage. This wrecks things, and I don't know why you would call this an inconsequential thing that nobody possibly does.