For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

OAT & Multi-attack math.

Curtesy of Sylow

thanks^^

The simple explanation is triple attacks cover up your double attack procs so it becomes less desirable to add gear with double attack in mind if your triple attack rate is sufficiently high, i.e. thf.

I've had triple attack proc 3x in a row with 20% ta, and I've had da proc twice back to back with 10% da rate.

Da and ta don't proc specifically every x hit. If you have 20% trip atk it's not going to ONLY proc on every 20th round, it's, from what I've seen, random. If it's not completely random I'd like to see the formula so I can figure out exactly when it all procs to set up gear appropriately.

The oat/oa2-4x weapons are good, until you get something better. Offhanding one when there's better options is intentionally gimping yourself.

Like anything else, build what you want and use it to get better items.

Regardless of your numbers being wrong (20% is 1/5 not 1/20) we know procs are random. The point is if you have both a double attack proc and triple attack proc on the same hand you won't see the double attack because you will be triple attacking. Thus devaluing the addition of double attack when you have sufficiently high triple attack rate. Over 1000 attack rounds you should get a triple attack proc number very close to your triple attack % (assuming no qa) but the number of double attacks you see will be lower than your double attack %.

And occasionally 2-4 weapons are bad when paired with multi-hit gear (da gear more specifically) because the gear will take precedence over the 2-4. That's why being a war devalues Conqueror's aftermath with their high native da %, etc.

Does this logic still hold true if you own a 99 twas instead of mandau?

So confused on gear at the moment. Things are so very situational anymore.

What target are you using? That will majorly change what you should be wearing.

Edit to your edit -

Something likes this for outside delve:
ItemSet 301437

and the posted delve set inside fractures because you need the accuracy.

yeah sorry for the ninja edit there, I just try things in the spreadsheet and get strange results, like the Delve NQ and Delve HQ set's listed in the guide if you use the same weapons for them the NQ keeps coming up with higher melee dps.

My current setup for the NQ and HQ Delve Comparison is:

Mithra Thf/War
Red Curry Bun

Target: Delve Fodder

As Malizia says, it's going to vary as you enter/exit the dDEX sweet spot so you may be there with the nq set (esp. using twash and being mithra) and you're adding more multi-attack than the hq set offers. I look at the hq set as being best for delve bosses and not necessarily fodder outside of Izhiikoh.

So I was in Adoulin tonight, and saw a thf with delve dagger in main hand, and delve sword in offhand. It got me curious, though I almost imediately dismissed it after viewing the rest of his gear, but I digress. The combined delay does suck, but it does have a huge jump in damage per hit, so I wondered if it might be a plausible option for non mandau thfs. Assuming current offhand is something like a str thokcha or Aluh, is this combo at all worth considering?

I was kind of wondering about that too...

THF has a D in sword.

That's a deficit of 83 skill.

Take a wild guess whether using a sword at 99 is a good idea or not.

Fair enough. That's why I asked.

Was thinking about something similar, but I'm confused. something like:

Head to Skadi +1

Waist to Nusku's sash(same dw as Patentia and 5.4m for 8 attack is out of the question for me right now)

Are the new earrings better than brutal/suppa for outside delve fodder/general messing around?

How do Sigyn feet stack up to at least rank 2 Manibozho feet?

Asperity neck better than rancor or nefarious collar/rancorous mantle combo?

Earrings are better if you need the acc. Brutal/Supp is still better if you don't.

Yeah I thought so too, thanks.

According to the setup I got on spreadsheet, even when I don't need the accuracy, the earrings are doing better than Brutal/Suppa in every situation.

As for Asperity neck, I can not get it to beat Nef/Ranc mantle.

Manibozho feet depend entirely on the rest of your set and the mob you're fighting it seems when it competes with Sigyn's. Right now with everything up in the air, it pretty much is best to just use the spreadsheets yourself, all the upgrades change things up too much at different ranks.

Yeah, I was asked to re-check the earring set last night to compare with Brutal/Suppa, and it didn't match my original comparisons. It gains about 0.5% from the DW (compared to DA/DW of Brutal/Suppa) and about 0.5% from the 8 attack, for about 1% gain overall in most cases (more if the acc matters).

So I retract the "not being worth it" assessment, and put it in the "generally minor upgrade" category.

Interesting find guys, thanks.

How does Manibozho not stomp all over Sigyn's?
At Lv2 Augment you're comparing: 20 Attack 4 Acc 2 DA vs 7 Str 7 Dex.
At Lv15 Augment it becomes: 27 Attack 7 Str 10 Acc 2 DA vs 7 Dex.

The dDEX sweet spot. Sigyn's provides DEX, which under the right conditions provides a HUGE DPS boost thanks to the crit hit rate gain.

This, honestly, is one of the biggest issues I have with spreadsheets. It's not that the spreadsheet is wrong - it isn't - but that unless you're paying particularly close attention, you won't know why certain pieces of gear are better than others. Crit hit rate makes a big difference, as well as accuracy, attack capping, set bonuses, etc. but unless you know that these things are happening, you won't get full understanding out of what you're doing.

Also, these things are very ephemeral and mob-dependent, which is why you can never have a "best for all possible situations" set, and which is why I have to put so many disclaimers on the gear section of my guide. Sigyn's may put you in your dDEX sweet spot now and give you a 7% crit hit rate bonus against fodder, but against a Delve boss or in Dynamis it may be significantly worse than the Mani feet. It's entirely dependent on your stats, your gear, and your enemy.

In general suggesting an item that is only better when in that sweet dDex spot is not a good idea because all mobs have different AGI values. Similarly, it will differ player to player depending on race and if they have dex merits or not.

The only times I would ever suggest something because of the DEX would be either because both pieces in question are pretty equal before counting the dex, or if the dex was so significant that for the majority of cases it will have an effect on your crit rate.

Unless you're gearing for a specific event where you know the AGI value of the mobs (eg Colibri parties at 75), I would never suggest a piece that is only better because of dDex and would otherwise be inferior.

Oh, also forgot to add to the person who said to use Nusku's because not spending 5mil for 8 attack - You're also paying for the 5 STP which actually pushes you over 5TP/hit with Aphotic/Mandau. (At least it does with Xbow, I'm not sure with Boomarang).

What path are you guys going on Aphotic? I was thinking of doing B, but not sure. Consider I also only use thf in mostly non Adoulin events(dyna, salvage).

I'm doing path A (STR/ATK). You still get plenty of accuracy for delve, and STR and ATK are the most common things we stack for our gear for overall damage output.

For your case, Sehachan, I might consider the evasion path, so you have to worry less about hybrid evasion gear for your content. The B path (accuracy) doesn't make any sense outside Adoulin because it's so easy to be accuracy capped, and the A path might be less useful for Dynamis if you're attack capped.

Ignoring everything you say, k.

And fyi, the doubt was mainly between str and dex, the acc/atk difference is only 5 points, I wasn't aiming path b for 5 accuracy, but 10 dex if anything.

I didn't really say to use it, I said that's what I was thinking/am going to use because I'm poor. I didn't know it pushed you over the 5 tp/hit, thanks.

Nusku's has Subtle Blow D: