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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
Bismarck.Osaia
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 367
By Bismarck.Osaia 2013-02-18 18:17:12
This thread made me sad to have made Gungnir...
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 430
By Odin.Registry 2013-02-18 18:26:06
Quite possibly a stupid question...
Why Yoichi in Legion over Koga?
VIP
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-18 18:27:35
Quite possibly a stupid question...
Why Yoichi in Legion over Koga?
Cause yoichi is cheaper
Cerberus.Detzu
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 869
By Cerberus.Detzu 2013-02-18 18:29:37
I guess you're out of TP moves range when you use a bow, less MP wasted for healers, constant damages etc...
VIP
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-18 18:32:25
I guess you're out of TP moves range when you use a bow, less MP wasted for healers, constant damages etc...
Anni rng does ranged infinitely better than Sam, though there is something to be said for versatility.
Asura.Ccl
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1997
By Asura.Ccl 2013-02-18 18:33:20
Quite possibly a stupid question...
Why Yoichi in Legion over Koga?
Cause mainting am3 in legion can be annoying, I don't have a mythic, but everyone I know with a mythic complain about it.
Namas is a better ws than shoha when used propperly, you can WS with mob being 22 from you(while thf pulling, IC running away etc) 2 mob in there a weak to piercing (both harpy).
You can tp in amano and have no acc issue in an hybrid set.
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1925
By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-02-18 19:03:59
Although I don't know how much of a factor this is, ranged attacks also have less lvl correction than melee attacks so even at uncapped ratio on higher level mobs, it has a slight advantage.
Bismarck.Llewelyn
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1029
By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2013-02-18 21:26:33
Not needing to worry about Overwhelm on the Ironclad is nice as well.
Edit: Well. All the mobs, really!
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1285
By Phoenix.Dramatica 2013-02-18 21:41:26
It's a niche use, but pretty cool to see amano/yoichi actually excel at something.
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By Gimp 2013-02-18 22:34:13
Relic and empy staves? Dafuq
Honestly, if I were a pretty serious Summoner, I'd concider Claustrum(assuming I'd make a melee set, which I probably would) :P
to make use of either you'd "need" a melee set the refresh conversion to mp for just 100 tp is horrible 8mp ever tic for 20 seconds...or 400 mp for every myrkr. I'm still going over any factors but by the looks of it you're making claustrum possibly for the 2.5 perma aftermath chance versus hvergelmir's aftermath. But I haven't really done any sort of math to assume that claustrum is better in that respect. They both end up with the same base damage and delay at 99 but claustrum gets base damage at easier tiers sooner than hvergelmir.
You could also spirit taker for more mp than Gate of Tartarus.
That's kind of a short and skinny but i'll put something together tomorrow also.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-02-19 12:11:17
Yeah, but GoT actually does damage.
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 411
By Siren.Mcclane 2013-02-19 12:17:16
So the best DD staff is a waste of currency, but the best DD club isn't a waste?
There's some bias in the description of these weapons!
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Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-19 12:18:35
Whm with club is boss, blm/smn with staff is ***.
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 411
By Siren.Mcclane 2013-02-19 12:19:40
From the way I see it, they're both very similar in usefulness. Which is very little other than having fun just dicking around
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-19 12:22:02
Effectiveness though isn't the same!
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2215
By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-19 12:22:34
Staff gives 8/tic refresh, what does Mjollnir do?
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Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-19 12:23:47
Awesome attack with Realmrazer! Plus you can dualwield a kclub for tp spammage.
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2215
By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-19 12:25:42
Plus you can dualwield a kclub for tp spammage. For the mob or you?
And a whm sacrificing sub job for anything other than "having fun just dicking around" seems detrimental.
Fenrir.Sylow
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-19 12:26:13
So the best DD staff is a waste of currency, but the best DD club isn't a waste?
There's some bias in the description of these weapons!
There are situations where WHM is a good choice for content and going WHM/NIN or WHM/DNC with Mjollnir / Kraken Club would be the best way to handle the situation.
There are no situations where whipping out a Claustrum is optimal because content where SMN or BLM are good choices tend to be extremely disfavorable to SMN or BLM meleeing.
That, and the only way Mjollnir really functions is by offhanding a Kraken club. I suppose Claustrum would be good if you could offhand a Kclub with it.
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Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-19 12:28:10
Plus you can dualwield a kclub for tp spammage. For the mob or you?
And a whm sacrificing sub job for anything other than "having fun just dicking around" seems detrimental. Why do you care about the subjob? If you're meleeing on mage means that it doesn't matter regardless.
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Fenrir.Sylow
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-19 12:29:19
Spamming Mystic Boon with Mjollnir is also orders of magnitude more potent than the refresh from Claustrum.
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サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 411
By Siren.Mcclane 2013-02-19 12:30:04
If it doesn't matter, then why can't a BLM/SMN melee against things that don't matter either? I'm not saying Claustrum is a must have, it's one of the poorer choices, but if someone wants to make one because they want to *** around, it's certainly not a waste of currency.
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2215
By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-19 12:30:16
Plus you can dualwield a kclub for tp spammage. For the mob or you?
And a whm sacrificing sub job for anything other than "having fun just dicking around" seems detrimental. Why do you care about the subjob? If you're meleeing on mage means that it doesn't matter regardless.ie Whm dding is akin to a Smn meleeing with its avatar on stuff that doesn't matter
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-19 12:30:49
Didn't say it can't, but it's considerably less effective than mjollnir/kclub.
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サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2006
By Asura.Lokimaru 2013-02-19 12:31:29
Except that WHM melee has more applications than SMN melee ever could.
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Fenrir.Sylow
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-19 12:31:57
OK, fine, but one of them has to be the waste of currency, so I'll get a new name for Claustrum and sux2bu Gungnir.
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サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2215
By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-19 12:33:29
Didn't say it can't, but it's considerably less effective than mjollnir/kclub. Amano is less effective than Ragnarok, does that make it a waste of currency as well?
(Sorry to all Sams out there, I needed an example, Sam is still a good dd, blah blah blah)
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-19 12:33:56
That's a very stupid comparison.
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2215
By Siren.Thoraeon 2013-02-19 12:35:24
How so? One is being labeled a waste of currency because it is not as good as a weapon on another job. Seems very similar.
Claustrum is still the best DD weapon for the jobs that can equip it.
Valefor.Sehachan
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-19 12:36:18
It has next to no use and it sucks at that too.
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Dafuq Relic Shud I Maek?
Because every argument has already been made
Now with 30% less Comic Sans!
So, liek, you've burned your Beastmaster to 99 and you're ready to go fight over nightmare mobs in dreamlands Dynamis with the rest of your server. But, you don't know which relic to make? Fortunately, 50 other people made a thread before you and contrary to what you may believe, your situation is not unique.
Aegis
The creepiest relic of them all!
Stuff regarding Aegis goes here.
Amanomurakumo
Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven
Amanomurakumo analysis goes here.
Annihilator
Soon to be banned by Obama
Annihilator analysis goes here.
Apocalypse
The End of the World
Apocalypse analysis goes here.
Bravura
The Virtuoso
Bravura analysis goes here.
Claustrum
The Waste of Currency
Claustrum analysis goes here.
Excalibur
The sword of King Arthur
Excalibur analysis goes here.
Gjallarhorn
The Yelling Horn
Gjallarhorn analysis goes here.
Gungnir
The Swaying One
Luvdisc analysis goes here.
Guttler
The Relic-Maker
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER by Scaevola
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER
Overview Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be situationally better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Strengths and Weaknesses Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect (VIT down) that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game considered independently of weapon type.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job? The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used? You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise? These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur? In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors? Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because fuck you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors? ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is or isn't this the weapon for you? Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the shit out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Are there any other considerations? Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
Kikoku
Demon Wail
Kikoku analysis goes here.
Mandau
The Headhunter
Mandau Analysis provided by Byrth
(1.) Overview
Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
When offhanding with 27% DA (/WAR) and 14% TA:
Mercy Stroke - 2 hits base, 1.4*(4 fTP + 0.1 Gorget + MultiAttack Rate*2) = 7.17 fTP - Gets about D+85 from 60% STR
(55+85+14)*7.17 = 1082.6
Exenterator - 5 hits base, 5 fTP + MultiAttack Rate*2 = 6.02 fTP - Gets about D+140 from 100% AGI
(55+140+14)*6.02 = 1258.2
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
Mjöllnir
The Crusher
Mjöllnir analysis goes here.
Ragnarok
The Fate of the Divine
Ragnarok analysis goes here.
Spharai
The Spheres
Spharai analysis goes here.
Yoichinoyumi
The Fan-Splitter
Yoichinoyumi analysis goes here.[/div]
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