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Overall Battle System Adjustments for the Future
By daemun 2013-01-11 18:32:53
Now, all they have to do it make ***weak to magic and enfeebles and we have ourselves a game again. MB would bring me back.
[+]
By Xenshi 2013-01-11 18:35:22
Let's hope they roll these out them out sooner rather than later. Let's all pray not to have another caithsith situation.
By Kimble2013 2013-01-11 18:39:59
Seems like nothing all that huge and won't really know how much of a difference it will make till its able to be tested.
At least they are trying though.
Fenrir.Sylow
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Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-11 18:42:29
Let's hope they roll these out them out sooner rather than later. Let's all pray not to have another caithsith situation.
In fact, these adjustments will be further delaying Cait Sith and Atomos.
Fenrir.Camiie
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By Fenrir.Camiie 2013-01-11 18:44:59
SE: We never promised you Cait Sith and Atomos.
Leviathan.Vaudianx
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By Leviathan.Vaudianx 2013-01-11 18:49:56
Lovin' the Merit WS adjustment!
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-01-11 18:57:55
Leviathan.Vaudianx said: »Lovin' the Merit WS adjustment!
loving? why so much praise?
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Game: FFXI
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By Valefor.Applebottoms 2013-01-11 19:02:48
The Elemental Magic is going to be interesting.. looking at the chart (based on the INT+100 stat), Stone V will do about 100 less damage than Thunder V.. for half the MP and same recast time.
....Oh my.
Cerberus.Cahlum
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By Cerberus.Cahlum 2013-01-11 19:06:49
Interesting stuff. Not sure why they want to give every job access to even more haste, should be limiting amount of haste people can get.
BLM stuff looks promising.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-11 19:08:48
Interesting stuff. Not sure why they want to give every job access to even more haste, should be limiting amount of haste people can get.
BLM stuff looks promising.
Why?
[+]
By Kimble2013 2013-01-11 19:09:18
Why not?
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-11 19:12:26
They said should implying that there is some reason that this (limiting) in fact needs to be happening.
I asked "why" for clarification because I don't see any reason they need to limit access to attack speed beyond the current 80% cap.
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By Sylph.Wardeniii 2013-01-11 19:12:28
These potential modifications demonstrate a very attentive level of investigation regarding a handful of the game's most glaring issues.
I don't often break this one out but...
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By Valefor.Applebottoms 2013-01-11 19:46:17
What they should be doing is increasing the length of haste from 3 minutes to based on your Enhancing Magic. If SMN can have it everyone else can ; ; /sad
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-01-11 19:47:41
Valefor.Applebottoms said: »What they should be doing is increasing the length of haste from 3 minutes to based on your Enhancing Magic. If SMN can have it everyone else can ; ; /sad
Dat animating wail?
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-11 19:48:07
Valefor.Applebottoms said: »What they should be doing is increasing the length of haste from 3 minutes to based on your Enhancing Magic. If SMN can have it everyone else can ; ; /sad
Acording to JP Wiki, SMN Hastega also offers a (slightly) stronger Haste effect.
Asura.Vishna
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By Asura.Vishna 2013-01-11 20:01:18
It's nice to see they haven't forgotten about Red Mage even after the 4 month break I took from the game and are making an effort assist in making this job one of their concerns in the long run.
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2013-01-11 20:21:28
Anyone else mildly concerned with the changes to defense and how it effects how much damage we take?... This is SE we are talking about.
I like the idea that def actually works, but it concerns me that the bonuses of high defense will not make up for the (rape you in the ***) that will come from having low defense.
IE back to the days of mnks being terrified of counterstance, LR or zerk actually getting you killed.
[+]
サーバ: Valefor
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By Valefor.Applebottoms 2013-01-11 20:25:25
Valefor.Applebottoms said: »What they should be doing is increasing the length of haste from 3 minutes to based on your Enhancing Magic. If SMN can have it everyone else can ; ; /sad
Acording to JP Wiki, SMN Hastega also offers a (slightly) stronger Haste effect. That's pretty cool though.
What I meant was casting it as a WHM RDM or any mage and it lasting only three minutes without Perpetuance is just.. lame.
Just want it to last longer so you have a bit of breathing room to cast between you and probably several DDs. :|
[+]
Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2013-01-11 20:26:15
Quote: Anyone else mildly concerned with the changes to defense and how it effects how much damage we take?... This is SE we are talking about.
I like the idea that def actually works, but it concerns me that the bonuses of high defense will not make up for the (rape you in the ***) that will come from having low defense.
IE back to the days of mnks being terrified of counterstance, LR or zerk actually getting you killed.
Currently whenever you get curbstomped by a monster because of low def (like when you have counterstance etc) it's because their ratio is capped. If they don't touch the ratio cap, the defense adjustments will be nothing but beneficial to the players, because it will result in one of two scenarios:
1. Normal defense without berserk up is enough to make a noticeable difference in damage compared to now, under which case berserk will just drop you down to pre-patch damage taken
2. Normal defense without berserk up still isn't enough defense to affect capped ratio so nothing changes
Now, if they touch monster ratio caps though...yeah, that'll definately make fighting with full time berserk and stuff a bad idea. But I prefer a change like that to the game just being "push offensive stats as high as possible because defense doesn't matter, at all".
By Yamoto 2013-01-11 20:50:05
There's probably no one that cares about this, but the new magic damage calculations sure do make things messier...instead of M values 1/1/1.5/2/2.29 for tier 1/2/3/4/5 respectively we now have a different value for each spell of each tier...
V
Spell |
Earth |
Water |
Wind |
Fire |
Blizzard |
Thunder |
I |
10 |
25 |
40 |
55 |
70 |
85 |
II |
100 |
120 |
140 |
160 |
180 |
200 |
III |
200 |
230 |
260 |
290 |
320 |
350 |
IV |
400 |
440 |
480 |
520 |
560 |
600 |
V |
650 |
700 |
750 |
800 |
850 |
900 |
M
Spell |
Earth |
Water |
Wind |
Fire |
Blizzard |
Thunder |
I |
1.5 |
1.4 |
1.3 |
1.2 |
1.1 |
1 |
II |
2.5 |
2.35 |
2.2 |
2.05 |
1.9 |
1.75 |
III |
3.5 |
3.3 |
3.1 |
2.9 |
2.7 |
2.5 |
IV |
4.5 |
4.25 |
4 |
3.75 |
3.5 |
3.25 |
V |
5.5 |
5.2 |
4.9 |
4.6 |
4.3 |
4 |
These work to give the values they listed, not taking into account any caps. Though I do like these normal V values instead of the random ones from before...
</nerdpost>
<lurk>
サーバ: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Badboybetran 2013-01-11 21:08:26
Sounds like propaganda for the new expansion.
SE has the habit of nerfing something when it becomes fun to do or to have.
[+]
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-01-11 21:10:07
Fenrir.Badboybetran said: »Sounds like propaganda for the new expansion.
lolwut?
Leviathan.Heam
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13
By Leviathan.Heam 2013-01-11 21:15:16
"This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about dark knight being too powerful."
Who the hell are these people that's crying and bitching about this??
[+]
Valefor.Esdain
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1154
By Valefor.Esdain 2013-01-11 21:32:36
"This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about dark knight being too powerful."
Who the hell are these people that's crying and bitching about this??
Fenrir.Sylow
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-11 21:33:26
It's not surprising, they said at Vanafest they thought DRK was becoming overpowered. DRK has always been a powerful job missing a powerful weapon skill.
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-01-11 21:36:25
It's not surprising, they said at Vanafest they thought DRK was becoming overpowered. DRK has always been a powerful job missing a powerful weapon skill.
And once they got it, you all saw what they could do. Reso was too much of a boost, like original ukko's was too much for war.
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2013-01-11 22:12:30
I'm not seeing how this would be a nerf to drk at all. Other than they admitted it's becoming powerful and they are being careful with future adjustments to it.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-11 22:20:29
It's not a nerf to DRK at all.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-11 22:21:18
01-11-2013 03:58 PM | Akihiko Matsui | Dev Team | |
| | Overall Battle System Adjustments for the Future
Hello.
Thank you for the vast amount of feedback regarding battle.
We’ve received a variety of different adjustment suggestions and amongst them a suggestion for enfeebling. However, instead of thinking about this in terms of individual points, I’ve been reading over everything from the viewpoint of battle overall.
Towards the end of last year I made a series of posts about the plans we have; however, this raised the issue of requests for more specific, concrete details, which in turn made it difficult for all of you to hold discussions. With that said, from an overall battle system perspective, I would like to share a couple of ideas the development team is currently thinking about.
Please note that all of these ideas have not been finalized. Also, please know that the below is not the entirety of the overall battle adjustments.
We’d appreciate it greatly if you took the content listed here to not represent the cure-all solution, and see it more as things we will be doing while working to solve the issues.
Balance between two-handed and single-handed weapons
This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about making adjustments to single-handed weapons, and we would like to perform adjustments.
As has been mentioned, food and other choices are quite limited due to the fact that status modifiers are far greater for two-handed weapons and there is a higher need for accuracy when using single-handed weapons.
For example, we are currently looking into the possibility of adding some form of merit that would enhance the modifiers for the single-handed weapon main weapon slot.
Regarding Dark Knight
This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about dark knight being too powerful. As was commented during VanaFest, we feel dark knight is becoming powerful, and at the same time decided to put off the adjustments we had looked into at that time. I believe there are many who remember this.
We are currently looking to adjust Desperate Blows and Last Resort.
Currently, the haste cap for equipment and magic is the same for all jobs, but haste from abilities is a separate category outside of this cap, and Desperate Blows is the ability with the highest value of haste.
However, simply reducing the value of Desperate Blows would only cause dark knight to become weaker, so we are considering giving a portion of the total haste effect granted from Desperate Blows to Last Resort, and giving the remaining amount back to Desperate Blows.
Current
Post-adjustment - Desperate Blows +10% (*Value with 5 merit points)
- Last Resort +15%
Simply put, this adjustment will allow you to gain this effect in the case you use dark knight as your support job.
While currently, it might be difficult to imagine the situations where a front-line job would select dark knight for their support job, we would like to look into this based on this possibility.
Regarding Defense
This is a topic that we have received feedback on asking to increase the boons of defense. Due to the attack/defense ratio, the meaning behind adding defense past a certain value starts to become pointless, and we would like to make it have meaning.
As a merit, for example, the more you increase your defense, the lower the damage taken will be and the boons for Defender would become large.
On the other hand, while under the effects of abilities that decrease defense such as Berserk or Last Resort, the damage you take would become higher than what it is currently.
Merit Point Weapon Skills
This is a topic we have seen in threads asking to increase the cap on the merit point weapon skill category.
Instead of adjusting the cap value, we are currently looking into adjusting the modifier values so that these weapon skills can be used with a single merit point.
We are envisioning to make it so 1 merit point will yield a 65% status modifier, and each point afterwards will grant an addition 5% for a maximum of 85% (no changes to the max value).
Elemental Magic
We have received a variety of feedback on elemental magic.
The first thing I’m thinking of doing is making adjustments to the damage calculations.
Here’s my current image of how elemental magic is going to work:
The damage output on earth element spells will initially be lower compared to the rest of the elements, but have the best cost performance overall. Also, INT will have an even larger impact on the damage output. As a result, players will basically try to raise their INT and magic attack to get closer to the damage output done by lightning element spells.
Breakdown by element - MP Efficiency: Earth > Water > Wind > Fire > Ice > Lightning
- INT Offset: Earth > Water > Wind > Fire > Ice > Lightning
- Initial Damage Output: Lightning > Ice > Fire > Wind > Water > Earth
- Maximum Damage Output: Lightning > Ice > Fire > Wind > Water > Earth
Breakdown by spell tier - MP Efficiency: I > II > III > IV > V
- INT Offset: V > IV > III > II > I
- Initial Damage Output: V > IV > III > II > I
- Maximum Damage Output: V > IV > III > II > I
The charts below explain my idea in detail.
* The magic attack does not include any offsets.
* “INT+0” and “INT+100” represents the INT difference between the caster and the target.
Tier I |
INT+0 |
INT+100 |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
10 |
10 |
42 |
160 |
Water |
16 |
25 |
66 |
165 |
Wind |
25 |
40 |
92 |
170 |
Fire |
35 |
55 |
108 |
175 |
Ice |
46 |
70 |
126 |
180 |
Lightning |
60 |
85 |
149 |
185 |
|
Tier II |
INT+0 |
INT+100 |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
78 |
100 |
175 |
350 |
Water |
95 |
120 |
195 |
355 |
Wind |
113 |
140 |
213 |
360 |
Fire |
133 |
160 |
233 |
365 |
Ice |
155 |
180 |
255 |
370 |
Lightning |
178 |
200 |
278 |
375 |
|
Tier III |
INT+0 |
INT+100 |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
210 |
200 |
360 |
550 |
Water |
236 |
230 |
386 |
560 |
Wind |
265 |
260 |
415 |
570 |
Fire |
295 |
290 |
445 |
580 |
Ice |
320 |
320 |
470 |
590 |
Lightning |
345 |
350 |
495 |
600 |
|
Tier IV |
INT+0 |
INT+100 |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
381 |
400 |
581 |
850 |
Water |
410 |
440 |
610 |
865 |
Wind |
440 |
480 |
640 |
880 |
Fire |
472 |
520 |
672 |
895 |
Ice |
506 |
560 |
706 |
910 |
Lightning |
541 |
600 |
741 |
925 |
|
Tier V |
INT+0 |
INT+100 |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
626 |
650 |
855 |
1200 |
Water |
680 |
700 |
909 |
1220 |
Wind |
734 |
750 |
967 |
1240 |
Fire |
785 |
800 |
1014 |
1260 |
Ice |
829 |
850 |
1058 |
1280 |
Lightning |
874 |
900 |
1103 |
1300 |
|
As far as casting time and recast time goes, here’s my current idea:
- Tier I~V spells will all have same casting time / recast time.
For example, Tier I spells will have a casting time of 0.5 seconds and recast time of 2 seconds. Therefore, both Thunder I and Stone I will have the casting time of 0.5 seconds and recast time of 2 seconds.
The charts below explain my idea in detail.
Tier I |
MP Cost |
Casting Time |
Recast Time |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
9 |
4 |
1.5 |
0.5 |
6.5 |
2 |
Water |
13 |
10 |
1.75 |
0.5 |
7.75 |
2 |
Wind |
18 |
16 |
2 |
0.5 |
9 |
2 |
Fire |
24 |
22 |
2.25 |
0.5 |
10.25 |
2 |
Ice |
30 |
28 |
2.5 |
0.5 |
11.5 |
2 |
Lightning |
37 |
34 |
3 |
0.5 |
13 |
2 |
|
Tier II |
MP Cost |
Casting Time |
Recast Time |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
43 |
36 |
3.25 |
1.5 |
14.5 |
6 |
Water |
51 |
43 |
3.5 |
1.5 |
15.75 |
6 |
Wind |
59 |
51 |
3.75 |
1.5 |
17 |
6 |
Fire |
68 |
60 |
4.25 |
1.5 |
18.5 |
6 |
Ice |
77 |
68 |
4.5 |
1.5 |
19.75 |
6 |
Lightning |
86 |
77 |
4.75 |
1.5 |
21 |
6 |
|
Tier III |
MP Cost |
Casting Time |
Recast Time |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
92 |
64 |
5.25 |
3 |
22.5 |
15 |
Water |
98 |
75 |
5.5 |
3 |
24 |
15 |
Wind |
106 |
88 |
5.75 |
3 |
25.25 |
15 |
Fire |
113 |
101 |
6 |
3 |
26.5 |
15 |
Ice |
120 |
115 |
6.25 |
3 |
27.75 |
15 |
Lightning |
128 |
129 |
6.75 |
3 |
29.25 |
15 |
|
Tier IV |
MP Cost |
Casting Time |
Recast Time |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
138 |
112 |
7 |
6 |
30.75 |
30 |
Water |
144 |
129 |
7.25 |
6 |
32 |
30 |
Wind |
150 |
148 |
7.5 |
6 |
33.25 |
30 |
Fire |
157 |
169 |
8 |
6 |
34.75 |
30 |
Ice |
164 |
190 |
8.25 |
6 |
36 |
30 |
Lightning |
171 |
213 |
8.5 |
6 |
37.25 |
30 |
|
Tier V |
MP Cost |
Casting Time |
Recast Time |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Before |
After |
Earth |
222 |
156 |
8.75 |
10 |
39 |
45 |
Water |
239 |
182 |
9.25 |
10 |
40.25 |
45 |
Wind |
255 |
210 |
9.5 |
10 |
41.5 |
45 |
Fire |
270 |
240 |
9.75 |
10 |
42.75 |
45 |
Ice |
282 |
272 |
10 |
10 |
44 |
45 |
Lightning |
294 |
306 |
10.25 |
10 |
45.5 |
45 |
|
Please note that we will be making additional adjustments on elemental magic using this change as the foundation.
Regarding Content
To start off, we are looking into adjustments for new Nyzul, Legion, Odin's Chamber II, Voidwatch (up to Provenance Watcher), Salvage, and in the event there is further necessity, new Salvage as well.
Below is what we are looking into for adjustments.
New Nyzul - Adjustments to the warp range of floors
Legion - Adjustments to monster levels
- Adjustments to attack power and defense
Odin's Chamber II - Adjustments to monster levels
Voidwatch - Expand the usage range of the void clusters to Provenance (Provenance Watcher)
Salvage - Re-examine the drop rate of level 35 equipment
- Make a change so that monsters other than the NMs that spawn from ramparts in Bhaflau Remnants drop the same equipment
Walk of Echoes - Adjustments to monster levels
- Remove EX status from each type of coin
- Add sacks that contain multiple Trick Dice and Liminal Residue
Past this, we will continue to make adjustments as necessary, and we will be making it so strategy and play style variations can be developed instead of having to win with a huge amount of fire power in a short amount of time.
While I am repeating myself, the above are by no means finalized. There are many other topics we are looking into at the moment (enmity, TP given to enemies, etc.), so I would appreciate it if you could read over all of this on the basis that there is a possibility that the implementation order and adjustment method changes.
Thank you very much. | |
01-16-2013 08:09 AM | Slycer | BG Translator | |
| | Hello!
Thanks for your feedback.
We've taken a look at the feedback we've received about the possible adjustments and we'd like to address a few of the questions that have been raised.
Even though the proposal mentions that the adjustment is specifically for DRK, assuming the Haste from Last Resort will apply to one-handed weapons, I think the combination of the one-handed weapon correction you mention in the post plus strengthening Last Resort will be enoug for one-handed weapons to catch up with two-handed weapons. |
Hold on a minute...because of Dual Wield I have close to 80% delay reduction... does this mean I can cut some of the Dual Wield for one-handed weapons? |
The Haste effect planned to be granted to Last Resort will, along with that of Desperate Blows, only be applicable to two-handed weapons. The overlap of the effects would be too significant if the delay reduction applied to one-handed weapons (because of Dual Wield) or to hand-to-hand weapons (because of Martial Arts).
I'm afraid that adjustments to hand-to-hand weapons are going to get lost in the mix between one-handed and two-handed adjustments. |
In the adjustments regarding balancing one-handed and two-handed melee weapons, hand-to-hand weapons will also be included and considered along with one-handed weapons.
However, since the performance of one-handed and hand-to-hand weapons differ significantly, they won't be treated uniformly (for example, the adjustment of "increasing the correction value of the one-handed weapon in the main weapon slot" which was talked about previously will be significantly different for hand-to-hand weapons).
Considering the unique circumstances around hand-to-hand, we will continue to make the adjustments separately.
Regarding elemental magic, would this also hold true for magic casted by automatons? |
The elemental magic adjustment does also apply to magic used by the automaton. [[edited:]] While stats can be raised on the automaton, it's easy to Overload while doing so, and we will take this into account when we look at the balance of the adjustment.
Translated by: Slycer | |
01-18-2013 10:39 AM | Slycer | BG Translator | |
| | Defense (Attack/Defense Ratio)
Regarding the contents of the post above [[Matsui's original post]], we are considering adjustments to the attack/defense ratio as follows.
| At very low defense, damage taken does not increase.
At present, there is an upper limit on the offense/defense ratio.
Depending on the opponent's attack value, if the player's defense value is 50% or higher, the damage reduction will increase. If the player's defense value is less than 50%, the damage reduction will be the same as if it was 50%.
Because of this, even though combining Last Resort and Berserk greatly reduces defense, for example, the damage reduction does not fall as significantly. |
| ----New Proposal
The maximum reduction will be calculated from the attack/defense ratio, and the upper limit of the calculated ratio will be increased such that when defense is very low, damage taken will continue to increase. |
| When defense is raised, damage taken is not reduced
This is mainly against higher level enemies and occurs because of something called level difference correction. The attack/defense ratio is calculated and impacted by each one level difference, reducing the calculated defensive power by some extent. |
| ----New Proposals
For new monsters created, starting with Seekers of Adoulin, create them such that the level difference correction will not apply. We would compensate for this by adjusting monsters' attack values, defense values, and stats.
Eliminate level difference correction. By eliminating the level difference correction, you will be able to more significantly reduce damage taken by increasing defense as expected.
|
The text above was what I was able to confirm directly with the person in charge of the team discussion. The information included has not been finalized.
Since this post is about content in development, the information is not confirmed and information included may change. It is possible that there is a lack of information or clarity, or errors included, and, if so, the content will be edited at a later date.
Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.
Translated by: Slycer | |
01-18-2013 10:51 AM | Slycer | BG Translator | |
| | Content Adjustments
Regarding the contents of the post above [[Matsui's original post]], we are considering adjustments as follows.
New Nyzul
The reasoning behind using Embrava is to greatly increase the speed of defeating enemies. Rather than adjusting the random warp pattern any further, we have decided to modify the strength of enemies.
Defense Adjustment
For enemies with certain weaknesses, allow attacks against those weaknesses to do further increased damage.
Level Adjustment (further adjustments may be needed)
- Floors 1~20: Reduce enemy levels by 10
- Floors 21~40: Reduce enemy levels by 7
- Floors 41~60: Reduce enemy levels by 4
- Floors 61~80: Reduce enemy levels by 2
- Floors 80~100: No change
Legion
Adjustment of HP, defense, and attack strength.
As mentioned previously, we are considering eliminating the level difference correction values for the attack/defense ratio. If we move in this direction, adjusting the level of the monsters at the same time will make the monsters that appear too weak, so we would not adjust their levels. We are still considering HP adjustments along with the attack/defense adjustments.
Odin's Chamber II
Adjustment of HP, defense, and attack strength.
Similarly to Legion, if we adjust the attack/defense ratio by eliminating level correction and level at the same time, the monsters would become too weak, so we would not adjust their levels. We are still considering HP adjustments along with the attack/defense adjustments.
The text above was what I was able to confirm directly with the person in charge of the team discussion. The information included has not been finalized.
Since this post is about content in development, the information is not confirmed and information included may change. It is possible that there is a lack of information or clarity, or errors included, and, if so, the content will be edited at a later date.
Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.
Translated by: Slycer | |
Long post, just going to link to it.
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