SMN BURNS

~Unlurks~

In my honest opinion, it doesn't matter how one XPs, everyone has their method of XPing, and you shouldn't fault one for another. Like previous posters have mentioned before, people have played the game for a while and want to enjoy something else, some are just zerging for Maat Cap, etc...

My only complaint is that if you're going to zerg the class up, please, for the love of cake!, learn to play your class at the high end tiers! Not to say everyone won't learn to play your class, but you can tell who learned and who didn't.

How you learn is up to you. I'm still pretty new to this game, so I don't intend to take any fast XP parties so I can learn to play my classes while leveling it up. If you can learn while doing fast XP, good for you! Just LEARN TO PLAY.

Thank you for listening to my rant. Broke my posting virginity, wooohoo, lol.

~Relurks~

Who ever mentioned anything about having a LS that those this, you obvious are just judging. You have no idea what other ppl have accomplish so you can go play kill ur self if need to. I agree with what the previous player posted and obvious you are one of those that have never touched smn. Most ppl want them in pt to be main healers, um... boring all that power to waste no thanks! So regroup yourself buddy and if you consider yourself a crawler than I see why. And again, don't hate. Stay off the haterade and just do gatorade.

lol my smn is lvl 30 with a summoning magic of 19 =D

Sooooo... It's ok that Minidragon dupes salvage to get full sets, relics, absurd amounts of gil, etc. but... It's not ok for someone to Astral Burn. Oh.. Wait... Minidragon burned a significant portion of his jobs to 75 AS WELL AS a VERY large amount of his merits.

Hold on a second here... So wait... If Minidragon does it, it's cool, right? O.oa

Let me quote you with a couple edits here for grammar...

NEWS FLASH! We have another synonym for hypocrite! It's Temeraire.

"Your post reads like another flame from someone envious of another's accomplishments."

No one here is rationalizing to make your or anyone else's game experience less enjoyable. The only reason it would be less enjoyable would be if you were jealous. As for people not playing their jobs well, it has nothing to do with summoner burning. As Tbest says, most ppl who do summoner burns are more advanced in the game and understand the mechanics of the jobs even though they never played them. If you have multiple 75 jobs, you have grinded numerous times through parties and know well what other people's jobs encompass. For the rest you can go to ffxiclopedia.org and research it. If you still fail to grasp some of the concepts afterwards, join some skill up parties in Kuftal Tunnel or The Boyahda Tree. It isn't that difficult to understand your job, and what is expected. Another benefit is that all those sub jobs that you were dreading leveling to 37 can now be 37 and can be tested in your skill up parties/besieged/campaign/merit parties/etc...

If you feel people are being defensive toward your comments, you should recognized the defensiveness in your own statements telling these people to crawl in a hole, and calling them a gimp *** is extremely defensive.

There are plenty of opportunities to learn a job, and leveling the "old-fashioned way" is not the only way. There is a famous quote that says "There is more than one way to skin a cat" :-) Good luck to you.

1. You obviously can't be bothered to click on my name and see what I have or don't have. That means any reply you make is 100% subjective, and therefore judgmental. Don't tell someone else to stay off the haterade purely so you can drain it to the dregs.

2. I, on the other hand, DO check posters' credentials when they launch into poorly worded criticisms of my views. Get a job to 75 and grab a few years' experience doing endgame events and putting up with endgame drama before you criticize my judgments of how SMN burned jobs play in endgame.

3. You obviously haven't read previous posts in this thread. In particular, ones that don't say exactly what you want them to say from the first sentence. If you had read such posts, then you would already know that I don't disagree with SMN burn in principle, and that my judgments are based on my experience with those who have SMN burned jobs all the way to 75, and now expect to use them and lot gear for them and be given all the priveleges of someone who bothered to learn their job while XPing it in the first place.

4. There are obvious references to close knit groups of friends doing SMN burns sprinkled throughout the thread. If you are doing pickup groups, have fun. I hope its worth your time. Having done SMN burns myself, I can tell you that those pickup groups are probably making up for lack of communication and rapport by using more mules and more time...two things that further reduce the gap in experience points (per person...not just for you) between SMN burning and traditional grinding.

Well put, Drizilu. Except... Her comments are more on the offensive side than the defensive side.

*sigh* I suppose it wouldn't do any good to point out that you are qutoing me from an old thread, and are entirely out of context.

1. In most of those posts, I was replying to someone who was endlessly flaming away while providing almost zero context for any of his arguments. I was imploring him to explain WHY he felt that way. This would probably be obvious to anyone who read the thread with a neutral point of view.

2. I don't know a damn thing about Minidragon. I also don't know where you get that I am supporting him from those statements.

3. There is absolutely nothing in those quotes to suggest that I think duping is OK.

4. The statement about hard work and a vagina is sarcasm. I'm sorry you missed it.

5. Please give me your definition of hypocrite. I need a good laugh today.

6. Where am I displaying envy? In neither case is anyone throwing a party I haven't already been invited to before.

Whether it's from an "old" thread or not is irrelevant. You clearly stated that Minidragon did nothing wrong. Even though you weren't "condoning" cheating in a game.



You do pretty much the exact same thing that anyone who was "flaming" about Minidragon. You use the excuse that people don't know their jobs when they AB for xp, but... It's pretty clear from your posts that you just don't like people being able to get easy xp outside the traditional xp parties.

From your quote above it's pretty easy to reason that if you don't think something is wrong or immoral, then you obviously think it's ok at least in the moral sense.

Hypocrite (n): a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

You think that duping and other means of getting ahead with little effort whether they are against the game's TOS or are perfectly within the rules (such as AB'ing) are not wrong on one day. And yet you're here speaking out against them on another.

You appear envious because you're here throwing a tantrum when people are getting easy xp and not doing it the 'hard' or 'traditional' way that you prefer.

@Tbest:

Not only do you fail to grasp the context of the word, "defensive" in the above quote, but you fail to grasp the context of the same word in the statement of mine that he is referring to.

@Drizilu:

Let me use a real life example to illustrate a point here:

I have a CDL. I have driven a truck OTR before. Let's say you wanted to get a CDL and drive a truck. You could learn the basics through driving school. You could then ride along with someone of experience (not me...I am not level 75 on that job yet) who lets you drive the truck and willingly and patiently points out the things you need to know.

Or you could say, "well, it's not all that much different from driving a car", read a few books on the subject, spend a few hours driving in circles in the parking lot, then strap on your seat belt and head off into the sunset.

Which of the above drivers would you rather share the road with? I am not advocating the total abolition of SMN burn. I am merely saying that its best to go down that road when you aren't sharing it with anyone or when you are only sharing it with friends. At least until you have more experience behind the wheel, anyway.

If you are doing it with friends, and are willing to take the time to make the job worth others' time, then by all means, enjoy your SMN burn.

If you are looking for a quick way to 75, quit rationalizing about how its the same or you already know what you need to know.

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for EXPERIENCE.

lol... I know what defensive means and how it was used in that context. I was taking a stab at the methods you use when posting and saying that you were OFFENSIVE.
*Rolls his eyes.*

Nice analogy there... However... Playing a video game is a 'little' bit different from driving a semi (If that's even what you meant with your CDL reference since to drive most larger vehicles (ex. bus/semi/etc.) someone needs a CDL. Even driving a larger vehicle that you need a CDL for isn't all that difficult imo. The hardest part from my experience is being aware of your surroundings and knowing how to maneuver a larger vehicle in a small area with precision. You actually need to experience "most" tasks irl to perform them with any amount of efficiency.

However, in FFXI with filters off you can easily observe what someone does and then emulate them to a pretty high degree if you're a half decent player to begin with.

So...is this what the post looked like when ppl started to TP burn ONRY?

ZOMG!!! urdoinitwrong!! No skillchain wtf???

Different folks, different strokes.

Enjoy your xp however you may get it imo.

Hahaha, I think mine is somewhere around the same lines, I'm 25 with the skill cap of maybe 15 lol. Although with that new Kupower, maybe it might be worth it to stand outside and summon/dismiss until my fingers bleed... {thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass}

1. Look up the word "condone". Remember that I put a "not" in front of it.

2. Give a single example of where I condone Minidragon's behavior. Not condoning the behavior of his critics is not the same as condoning his behavior.

3. Since you like reading my old posts so much, why don't you produce the statement where I so clearly state that Minidragon did nothing wrong?

4. There has been a consistent theme to the points I make: If you SMN burn, you are missing out on an opportunity to learn how to play a job well. If playing a job OK is fine with you and the people you play with, that's your business. I happen to be drawing a line in the sand when it comes to others whom circumstance might dictate that they have to rely on you and your freshly burned job whether they want to or not. If that doesn't affect you, then shut up...I'm not talking to you in the first place.

5. How is it clear that I don't like people getting easy XP? I've consistently stated that I have no problem with XP exploits so long as your lack of skill doesn't affect others outside your inner circle. Again, you are trying to take certain of my statements out of their context so they will give you a soapbox to stand on.

6. Again, my statements on the Minidragon thread that you keep quoting refer to a specific individual whom you did not quote who decided to engage in mindless flaming while providing no context for his arguements. You are attempting to use old statements about a specific person to prop up your own position. You could come up with an actual arguement in support of SMN burning, but I guess it satiates the ego more to try to tear someone else down over months old statements referring to someone else.

7. By definition, if something is not immoral then it is either amoral or moral. To put things back in the orginal perspective, I wanted the guy I was actually talking to to tell me what his objectifiable reason was for mindless flaming. I quit posting in that thread when it became obvious that I was only fanning his flames.

8. Since you are so intent on forcing me to elaborate, I think hurting someone's business model because you are too lazy to play within the rules is sad, but not necessarily wrong or immoral. Cue the discourse on Sloth, Gluttony, Pride, etc. here.

9. Again, just because something isn't immoral doesn't make it moral. Neither does not being entirely wrong instantly make you entirely right. Cue the discourse on shade of gray, areas of overlap, etc here.

10. You can't dupe because SE will ban you. You can SMN burn because SE won't ban you. Cue the discourse on apples and oranges, etc. here.

11. Were it to be the other way around, with duping legal according to SE and SMN burning illegal according to SE, you would be presenting the same arguements in reverse. Duping is only illegal because SE said so. SMN burning is only legal because SE said so. My views on duping and SMN burning do not change merely on the whims of SE, as yours seem to (please correct me if I am wrong there, as I am assuming). There is a word for standing by your beliefs: integrity.

few quick questions:

1. Why do you feel the need to experience things in real life to do them properly, but don't feel the need to experience things in a game to do them properly? No flames intended...just curious as to the thought process here.

2. How do you know if a given player is doing something right in the first place? Is it possibly because an online guide said to do it that way or because a friend influenced you? How do you know the guide or friend is correct (not that one should be doubting friends)? The best answer I can come up with there is to try it for myself and see what works.

Temeraire, its their life, let them live it the way they want. If they want to gimp themselves, let them.

People will see that they aren't the best at their jobs, and won't invite them to any of the good ***. We have jobs that doesn't require thinking at all, its called Bard, let that be the job they are best at.

QFT

You guys debating on whats right or wrong lol

Go ask a GM if SMN burn is legit

If he says its Fine

Then have a good day your Opinion matters not because its LEGAL

I dont care for your "accomplishment"

I play to enjoy my game >.> not waiting 3~4hours for a merit pt and when your invited as SMN "Main healer {Yes, Please}" is pretty boring and sad since people don't lvl SMN to Heal but to actually DD! but oh noes TP burn pt don't tolerate that o.o SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM RDM or gtfo right o.o

Well SMNs got a way to exp and its better Then your way Q.Q more

I fully plan on smn burning mine to 66+ for Maat's cap. I've already done the main healing thing with WHM and RDM and the solo thing with BLM and BST I don't need to do it again. I have all the avatars except fenrir and diabolos. I can watch a movie or something and spam macros to increase my skill *shrug*. I can be gimp on smn because I never plan on playing the job ever again once I defeat maat on it.

The thing it all boils down to this

SMN burn will make your job under skilled~ so you go and skill wtv you missed out (probably take longer varies per job)

You missed out on some important "learning curves" Go out and {Level Sync} and play around with your job. Go in Camps and learn, die tons of time if you need to

But in the end some jobs play 100% Different when you do Endgame. Like what? 1st thing that comes to mind is rdm >.> from healing to enfeebling

When the last time you enfeeb something on birds o.o wait thats a bad thing :O!

In the end it depends who is playing the job. Ive seen Ninjas, PLD, RDM, BRD, SAM, RNG, etc Suck *** in exp pts and never learn from their mistakes if you like your job you will go out and read up about it, if you want to put effort in it! You will learn how to play it. So SMN burn isn't the cause for HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE players

Thats my 2cents

SMN burns isn't the cause for HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE players, we get those everyday.

They create HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE players, most likely though.

Most people only level a job thru the burn just for Maat's Cap, which is completely silly cause they can't kill him without the skill needed to....well....kill him. Point: SAM. What other job besides NIN uses GK? NIN can't even use GK that well, and any party that allows a NIN use GK outside of skillup parties is just asking for that party to fail.

But you can't kill Maat without the GK. Unless you got Polearm merits, but even then, thats pushing it (kindof need to self SC alot on Maat).

BLM needs Elemental Magic to kill Maat. You can get Elemental Magic skill from RDM and SCH, but most parties won't allow you to use Elemental Magic on ***.

SMN needs Summoning Magic skill to kill Maat. You can't expect to have an unmissed PC or anything on Maat if your magic skill is at 10.

DRG needs Polearm skill to kill Maat. NIN needs Ninja skill to kill Maat. RDM needs Enfeebling Magic to kill Maat. DRK needs emo skill to kill Maat. You get the picture?

But, if they want to gimp their way to 75, then have to spend weeks/months in skillup parties to skill up the needed skills to kill Maat, then thats ineffective way to level a job. But its their lives, let them gimp themselves, because in the end, its not gimping me at all.

1. You say right there that he wasn't wrong.

2. See above.

3. See above.

4. Yeah, you're missing out... But.. Unless it's your VERY FIRST job to 75, you should have a firm grasp on how any job does things and how to do that same job with decent efficiency. The only exceptions to this would be Summoner and Black Mage of course. We all know they're not invited to xp parties.

5. You're continually saying "DON'T DO IT!" in regards to AB'ing. Yeah, you use the excuse that people need to 'experience' the job to be able to play it, but we all know that most jobs require minimal experience to do the job well and execute their tasks required at an effective level.

6. I've stated my position for AB'ing more than once. Yes, it is a great way to get xp for subs. Yes, it is a great way to get merits.
Do you need to know how to play a job from 1-37 if you're going to use it as a sub? Most jobs are FAR different when used as a sub than when used as the main job. Dark Knight for example as a main job from 1-37 is more or less another big delay DD. Sure, you have a bit of MP, but most of that MP isn't going to be used and you're relegated to mindlessly swinging away with the occasional stun. As a sub at 75 you're pretty much just using it for Souleater zerging or chainspell stunning. How are those even remotely similar? How does playing the job from 1-37 actually affect what you'll be using it for as a sub on a lvl 75 job?
Also, you often state that you prefer to merit on Mamools (or elsewhere as long as it's a traditional xp pt) and don't like AB'ing for quick merits.
How does doing the same thing over and over in a merit party differ from doing the same thing over and over AB'ing? You need 1+ members outside the party to pull mobs and the Summoners in the party use their AF to get xp from many mobs at once instead of killing many mobs individually?

7. Yes, there are shades of gray to everything. But you 'have' said that Minidragon wasn't wrong or immoral in his actions.

8. See above.

9. See above.

10. Yes, you CAN AB because SE says it's ok and clearly within the mechanics of the game. So, why are you still here telling people they shouldn't do it? Oh, right.. Experience that you can't in any way get from any other source.

11. Yes, duping is against the rules. No, AB'ing is not. No one said any differently. There is no legal/illegal here... lol SE doesn't make laws, they make rules. :P Yeah, my views on whether something is in accordance with the rules ARE influenced by the person/people making the rules. I never questioned the 'morality' of the subject, that was you.

The reason why I state that you need to actually experience most things irl to do them properly is because often times real life situations are subjective and change depending on the person. Unless you're in a relatively controlled environment, similar actions could produce different results with many ever-changing variables. Doing the same fight 100x in FFXI will often produce VERY similar results. Because of this, you can read someone else's experiences as well as background information to know what you're doing and what to expect.

How do I know if someone is doing something right? If someone does something and it produces the desired results, they did it right. Let's throw in a real-life analogy for you, since you're so fond of them. If you attempt to bake a cake and it comes out charred and tastes like dirt, you obviously did something wrong. If, however, you bake a cake and it comes out of the oven looking appealing and tastes good, you did something right.

No, you don't have to do something to KNOW HOW to do it. But, by doing something you PROVE that you CAN to do it.

Korpg, some people 'enjoy' going out and lazily killing mobs in a skill-up party with friends. I for one, abhor experience points parties though. Also... As for the Summoner part, you don't really need that great of skill to kill Maat. He's so ridiculously weak for Summoners...

@Korpg:

I don't agree with anything you have said in this thread.

@Thunderz:

I agree with everything you say, but want to point 1-2 things out rq:

1. In practice, people won't go out and level sync or do any of the things that might challenge them to be a better player on a given job. They do SMN burn specifically to avoid any form of traditional party.

2. RDM is still a valuable healer in endgame IMHO. Just because you need to know more and new stuff, it doesn't negate what you already have learned.

3. SMN burn certainly doesn't cause HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE players. However, the optimist inside me demands that poor players be given a chance to learn and grow, and I don't feel like that happens with SMN burn in the game. You are either stunting whatever room for growth and learning there is by inviting poor players to do nothing (or nearly so) for easy XP, or you are forcing them into ever poorer PTs because you and your friends are decent players who don't XP traditionally anymore.

@Hypnotizd:

It is my view that leveling a job for ego purposes is the wrong reason to level a job. We can agree to disagree on that, tho...it's your 12.95.

That's funny. I don't recall having an ego about it at all. It's simply a job I do not like and a requirement for the item I want. It's not like I'm going to be screaming to the FFXI community that I'm the best at every job and here's my hat to prove it. Its just simply a goal I set for myself and there is an easier way to obtain it on SMN than LFP all day long. I'm not burning every job to 75 in an astral burn. Just SMN. Every other job I've gone through the standard party experience.

Ah. Didn't know, haven't bothered to kill Maat as SMN yet.



Care to elaborate?



Now, this is where I have to put my foot down. You are one *** step away from RMTing. You are going to give them the *** idea (if they haven't figured it out already, but it doesn't seem like they have) that to "powerlevel" a job to 75 really quickly would be here. You shouldn't have to buy exp, you should earn it.

People who use this for free are doing it for gimping themselves, people who are buying it buy it because they are already doing something illegal (botting, RMTing, being a scumbag), have been deleted 1+ times for it, and instead of learning from their mistakes, they wish to get back to 75 to do it all over again (so they can get deleted again, and its a stupid cycle that never ends until this game does). You are promoting the second part of that last run-on sentence.

Korpg, I always liked you, but just sayin, I love SMN burning lol. =)

Go for it. Its your character, not mine.

I'm not going to change people's minds on how they should live their lives. If I could, you honestly think we would be in the current global economic crisis we are at now? I would have fixed that ***in '02 when the signs first started showing.

It's never to late to get into politics, not to mention it's a statistic that the taller you are, the more successful you are at certain careers..

wait, how do you know how tall I am?

I don't remember mentioning how tall I am to people, but I could be mistaken.

Besides, I don't feel that I can be a good politician. I have ethics and morals, so I doubt I could get elected into anything higher than Texas State Governor.

There is no exploit on Level sync systems, this thing is following ALL GAME MECHANICS, Level Sync: you need to get a syncer who is not always avaliable, Astral flow: is AoE and You can only do this every 2hrs, unless a COR resets it and that follows the game mechanics also, Link all mobs: w/o words but you know what i mean.

So where is the exploit on this? you need to work on them anyways is not free XP, you take like 1 hour between pull etc, so you need a High Level, at elast 3 SMNs a sync and 2 leechers if you want.

Another thing, the skills, thats the bad side efects, ppl who lvl whit this method is going to skill up forever, so whatever.

Btw, SMN43 whit 40 summoning magic skill wwww