Koga Chainmail+2

been too busy to get ninja chainmail. would this be a workable solution?

just recently came back to game and took over a friends alt account. not sure how to post pic, but this is current tp set. http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/104227 advice?

Doesn't take long to get Ninja Chainmail, I'd suggest dedicating an hour or two getting it as it is superior to both Ningi/Koga +2 save for a few niche situations.

Your set looks fine otherwise.

Eventually, you'll want Thaumus Coat for body if you get the opportunity.

If you don't have access to Thaumus gear, just get the Ninja Chainmail. If you do have access to Thaumus, I GUESS you could get away with Koga for a little... But it really is a worthless piece(unless you like throwing?).

Speaking of throwing, koga chainmail +2 @ Tunnel worm, go~

Only with Sange augment and Sange 5/5... >.>

You know, I was about to throw away my Koga chainmail the other night and something kept bugging not to, so I didn't. I ended up making myself learn how the math works by reading a few forums and I was surprised with what I came up with.

After putting everythign together, I only see a 0.09 second different between the speed of Koga vs Ninja. Sure, Ninja is ahead, but 0.09 second's of a difference doesn't speak superiority to me, nor does 0.09 less speak noobish "throw this at a tunnel worm" gear to me either.

I would think that w/the +20acc/att or w/e on Koga, it might even parse pretty darn close within a couple tenth's of damage between the two pieces of gear, so.... my advice, before listening to the bandwagon, is DO NOT THROW IT AWAY. It's actually just as good as Ninja Chainmail.

IF there's anything I dislike more than intellectual bullying, it's being misinformed thru bandwagoning lol. We should be alot more careful about what we say instead of just blurting out the first thing that we think of lol.

If someone has more to add to this, by all means~. Kindly and constructively if you would.

I hold on to my Koga Chainmail +2 in hopes of some new bad *** shurikens. But for now it sits on my Mannequin.

I really do hope that they introduce some new shurikens as promised, I would carry a few stacks with me and Sange if the situation called for it.

*edit* I would also like to note that there has been plenty of constructive discussion on the reasoning behind Koga Chainmail +2 being the inferior piece between Iga Ningi +2 and Ninja chainmail for given situations.(I know it's around here somewhere xD

I think that many times, when figuring gear out, it's easy to forget different people's perspective/playstyle/ability/whatever, and how they say something doesn't quite compute with how another person hears it.

What I mean is, if I was choosing between two pieces of gear that are something like 0.3% apart damage wise, and the better one costs 12mil but the lesser one costs 50k, I would go for the cheaper one. Some people might not consider 12mil a big deal at all, and just buy the other one. Even other people might consider 12mil to be A LOT, but, will work hard to obtain it anyway.

So you're right when you say that it's close. Other people are right when they say "X > Y, use X." Just have to remember what's important to you - and that what's important to other people is also valid.

*well, sometimes people are wrong, but when they are accurate it's valid

Hunting thru to find more info about that. Nytefyre seemed to be saying it was inferior; I'm comparing the two pieces of gear straight side by side, but maybe there is dDEX or PDIF invovled that puts Ninja up above Koga. Anywho, forgive me as I should've taken a grain of salt before took everything verbatim from this thread. Hehe.... you know the ONE TIME I Don't... lol.

Nothing to do with dDEX or PDIF as far as I know. It's fairly simple. One of them has DW +3%, one of them has DW +5%. You don't need the accuracy (if you do, use food) from Koga and the attack<delay reduction and lolrangedattackonnin....there's just not a use, other than Sange, for Koga.

don't you people use thaumas body now?

No no, you're good. If anything, that sort of thing should be said more often, not less. Plenty of threads get trashed because of things like, "your item is stupid," and "OMFG STFU LEET GO AFK IN JEUNO LOLOLZ1"

This would make it even easier, given that Koga +2 is 2 million or so given forgotten hope prices and Ninja is free. Substantively, Koga might be better if we were making the comparison for pretty much any other job besides NIN, but NIN has so much DW right out of the gate that 2% more ends up being Huge Like Xbox.

The most important factor, of course, is that Koga Chainmail is holy ***ugly.

No way! Koga looks cool. Ninja is cool, too, of course... actually a lot of NIN bodies look pretty good. Idk. :)

0.9 seconds of what? How did you arrive at this number?

Two major errors here:

-You're looking at the numerical difference rather than the percentage difference. This is misleading if you don't consider the inherently low values you're already working with. Ninja +1 is nearly 5% faster per-hit if using Suppa, Iga Zukin +2, and Koga Hakama +2. More on this later.

-There's more to this than just the numbers involved. Getting a Ninja Chainmail (even NQ is sufficient here) takes a few quick quests. The longest potential holdup is farming the Kuftal key. Koga Chainmail +2, by contrast, involves gathering either 50 Forgotten Hopes or 30 Hopes and a -1. Even if you already have the -1, 30 Hopes is going to run you about a million gil that you could have spent on something else. Thinking of farming it yourself? You could have sold them instead or even opted to do a zone other than Tav, given that it's the worst of the four CoP zones for farming. Point being, unless somebody actively uses 5/5 Sange (all two of you), using Koga +2 involves expending more effort to obtain an inferior piece. It's true that some obtained it before we established it as 3% DW, but Ninja Chainmail has a significant lead regardless so it's moreso icing on the cake for those who didn't.

It's really not even close. The attack is going to add about 3-3.5% to your white damage if uncapped, whereas AF1 contributes at least double that in white damage. AF1 also improves WS frequency, offsetting the loss in white damage, so it's still going to be a good 3% ahead or more. If the accuracy is a concern, other easily-obtained bodies are better than either option (hello Iga +2).

Going to stop you right here. Why is bandwagon automatically a bad thing? People "bandwagon" to AF1 because it's demonstrably better.

This is an interesting quote given the surrounding context of your post.

I would add that you should get off your high horse.

NQ AF1 has no DEX, attack, or critrate, so no. It's just better.

EDIT: For clarification's sake... To question for the sake of understanding is commendable, merely striving to be different is not. Your apparent desire to rise above the "bandwagon" will in some ways put you beneath it. It is true that things are often too easily taken at face value here, but there is a wealth of information available that is based on a very thorough understanding of FFXI's mechanics. Certainly not perfect, but there is a very reasonable expectation that you furnish proper evidence when challenging claims given the substantial data that has been collected over the years. Gut instinct and raging against the machine do not constitute such data.

YOU GOT SERVED

Nightfyre is to logic what Liela is to lol pics.

I'm sure he was refering to the +1 as you were, that has 5 dex.

edit; agree with everything else.

Force of habit, I had the NQ for maybe two weeks. I think that's the only time I slipped in that post, all the other references should be to the NQ as that's what was named in the OP. AF+1 is obviously better than Koga +2 if the NQ is better though, since the +1 is at worst equal to the NQ.

EDIT: For the sake of completeness, dDEX varies by target. It will obviously impact one's output and can affect which build is preferable in a given situation (Iga Hakama +2 + Usukane Sune-ate vs Byakko's Haidate + Iga Kyahan +2 was a good example of this prior to Dyna revamp), but here it only serves to potentially enhance a lead that is already present.

That said, NIN doesn't TP in a whole lot of DEX nowadays. I have 128 with AF+1 (Hume, DEX merits), which means the monster would have to have less than 78 AGI for me to even have a hope of getting 1% crit out of it barring outside buffs. That's just a hair higher than Greater Colibri AGI and their AGI is pretty low for their level. The only buff I can think of that would improve my DEX without making this comparison irrelevant (ie not DEX+ from marches since you wouldn't use either body with marches) is Boost-DEX, and a decently geared Boost-DEX is likely to cap you for most current non-alliance content regardless of which body you're using. As such, expecting large dDEX returns anywhere the attack on Koga +2 is relevant is impractical, except maybe for Mithras.

Ok cool thanks NF. I still don't understand what you're saying in terms of the difference between the gear, but hey, not a problem. I'll continue to look and get more info as I've already clearly stated.

You have miss-understood what I said about people making comments about gear. I don't think I'm on a high horse what so ever, far from it; at the moment, it seemed as though this thread was being sophomoric and a waste of time, so I did vent. Afterwards, I apologized for not taking what I read in here "with a grain of salt." That's clearly mentioned.

So, could you drop your witch hunt? I did several posts ago haha.

On a side note: why is there always this one guy that has 2-3 posts of history that comes in a chat forum and says something inane like "you got served?" It's like, some kind of nerd's gratuitous banner of trolldom. lol OH WELL, thank you, I have to move on haha.

I really am a cool guy. So, don't think I'm coming from some nasty attitude-place.

Could you clarify? This isn't the first time I've gotten this impression from you.

This makes no sense. If anything, this is contradictory because you evidently took the previous posts with a rather substantial grain of salt and decided (initially) that the two items were in fact equivalent whereas the posts above yours state that AF1 is well ahead of AF2+2.

What witch hunt? Criticizing your use of the word "bandwagon" and asserting that you're on a high horse is not a witch hunt.

I don't think you have a bad attitude, I just think you're trying too hard to be a unique snowflake in an environment dictated by well-understood equations.

Well, I'm sorry if you somehow got a bad impression from me. Let's call a truce. More importantly, would you be able to help me make some sense of these calcs? I'd appreciate it.

So, my DW on my current NIN gear is 52. (Using Ninja Chainmail)
My Haste Eq and Magical Haste together is 39.

Here's the math I used according to ffxiwiki:

407 delay
52 DW
39 M/EH

(407 * .48) *.61 = 119.17
119.17/60 = 1.99 seconds

In game, when I count the number of attacks I do, it's 4 every 4 seconds. So, if you do 2 at 1.99 seconds, that would match up.

I assumed that if I had 2% less DW by wearing Koga CM+2 instead, then:

(407 * .50) * .61 = 124.14
124.14/60 = 2.07

That's a difference between the two pieces of gear of .08 sec. But, I'd be glad to know exactly how you calculate the DW/Haste and in what order. I did read haste caps at uh... 256/1024 or something... would I instead use that as a quotient instead for more exact amounts? Or does DW cap out at some point or have diminishing returns, etc etc.

:D Thanks

Your calculations are ok, and it seems like you understand the concept.

But you need to stop looking at it in terms of 1 attack round. The quicker you get to your next attack round, the quicker you get to the next. And the next, and the next, ad infinitum. Which means you get to your weaponskill quicker.

5 delay doesn't at all seem like much by itself. But you brushing it off as inconsequential hurts you the longer you're engaged.

You stated 0.9 seconds previously. I'm guessing it was a misplaced decimal.

Still, going from 2.07 seconds to 1.99 seconds is a 4% difference in attack speed.

Gear haste does cap at 256/1024. The exact amount per-item varies somewhat since whole numbers don't translate perfectly to /1024. Generally, 1% and values greater than 5% have slightly more than their stated value while middling values are slightly less than stated. There are different caps for each type of haste plus a total delay reduction cap. This is all outlined here.

DW and haste are combined before the total 80% delay reduction cap. This is important to bear in mind if you're getting buffs, since NIN can easily exceed that cap due to DW and doing so only results in you sacrificing TP/hit.

Both stats are subtractive from your total delay, with the net result that increasing your delay reduction will result in progressively greater percentage gains in DPS. If we add whichever 5% item you're missing, your DW becomes 57%. (0.57-0.55)/(1-0.57)=4.65% greater attack speed from that same 2% difference in DW in the body slot that previously net you 4%.

Gains in WS frequency will vary a bit - you appear to be using a relatively high delay combination, so your results are depreciated somewhat. TP/hit is not linear with delay, both due to truncation in TP/hit itself (truncated to first decimal) and the piecewise nature of the TP equation itself. TP gain over time increases significantly below 180 delay per hand, which is calculated post-DW:



This is why low-delay weapons are desirable for NIN.

Thank you.


4% increase in speed on Ninja Chaimail, over Koga Chainmail +2, in my current gear. Hmm.... This is where initially, my gut instinct said that this was not a vastly superior margin, like some have claimed.

So, hypothetically speaking of course, if I know I am going to do 100 damage during one attack round, and all other factors are equal, what about the following:

407delay
39haste
52DW
damage in 1 round = 100
attacks per round 2
time per attack round 1.99 (wearing NC).
time per attack round 2.07 (wearing Koga)

My current gear / push Kakka:Ichi nets 100TP in 10 attack rounds at 10TP per round. That is the same as 20 swings per rounds to 100TP.
100TP * 10 rounds = 100TP after 10 rounds
10 rounds * 2 attacks/rd = 20 attacks

So after 10 attack rounds, wearing NC, I have done 1000 damage in 19.9 seconds.
10 attack rounds * 100 damage = 1000 damage over 10 rounds
1.99 seconds = 1 attack round
1.99 * 10 = 19.9 seconds to 100TP

After 10 attack rounds, wearing Koga, I have done 1000 damage in 20.7 seconds.
10 attack rounds * 100 damage = 1000 damage over 10 rounds
2.07 seconds = 1 attack round
2.07 * 10 = 20.70 seconds to 100TP

The time difference between NC vs Koga is 0.08 seconds to hit 100TP respectively.

The average damage over 19.9 seconds is 50.2513 on Ninja CM.
The average damage over 20.7 seconds is 48.3092 on Koga CM+2.

So if I put the average damage of Koga CM+2 on Ninja CM's time scale at 19.9 seconds, then:
48.3092 x 1.19 = 961.3527

But by the time NC has reached 100TP and completed 1000 damage at 19.9 seconds, Koga is only at 961.3527 damage completed at 19.9 seconds. I've lost out on 38.65 damage full-timing Koga CM+2 on the trip to 100TP vs Ninja CM.

When I figured this, I originally didn't seem to be flaberghasted like I was being lead to do so when someone said "throw your Koga at a Kuftal worm-go." (Albeit, I mentally gave that person credit for making a poignant statement in jest after my initial frustration.)



So, in order to provide a larger scale, I sat down and figured up the following:
Let's say a mob has 10,000HP for a real-world comparison.
If all other factors were equal and:
100 damage per round occurred, no interruptions
Mob HP = 10000
10,000 / 100 = 100 rounds to defeat the mob.

If wearing NC, 1.99 seconds = 1 round, then 199 seconds would need to pass to defeat the mob, or 3.3767 minutes.
1.99 x 100 = 199
199/60 = 3.38

If wearing Koga, 2.07 seconds = 1 round, then 207 seconds would need to pass to defeat the mob, or 3.45 minutes.
2.07 x 100 = 207
207/60 = 3.45

To reitterate, 0.08 seconds still occur between times, gear vs gear:
207 seconds - 199 seconds = 8 seconds.
The average damage of 10,000 over 199 seconds = 50.25 in Ninja CM.
The average damage of 10,000 over 207 seconds = 48.31 in Koga CM+2.

Therefore, when Ninja CM has completed its 10,000 over 199 seconds, Koga CM+2 is still catching up, but at 199 seconds, it has completed 9613.69, a difference of 386.31.
48.31 * 199 = 9613.69

So at the end of this summary/hypothetical, it takes 8 seconds more to kill a mob in Koga Chainmail+2, than it would to kill it in Ninja Chainmail NQ/+1, if the mob had 10,000 HP and you always did 100 per attack round if you had 407 delay, 39 Haste (Eq/Magical), 52DW.

According to what I equated (subject to other factors withstanding another person's input), I struggled to believe that Koga was vastly inferior to AF/AF+1. While not greatly quicker, Koga is worth wearing, TP'ing in if you want to, or putting in on your Mog manequin. If you like the looks and get sick of Ninja Chainmail, you can still wear this and do fine. I wouldn't call someone who wore this armor a NOOB or an idiot for doing so. Nor would I offer advice to toss it. I'm glad I didn't. Besides, they may make throwing something wonderful in the future (thanks to Hotsoups for pointing that out.)

It would be interesting to determine how the accuaracy and attack play into the situation, but I am not adept at discerning or attempting that math just yet. But the extra acc and attk on Koga+2, in a lowbuffs sit, would help close the gap by X amount and would lower the amount of time to complete damage on par w/NCM. I'd take a wild guess and say if NCM did 100 dmg, all other factors equal, Koga+2 would prolly be like 108 dmg. I'll figure out those equations sometime later on. I'm still learning how pDIF, dDEX, and bBLAH work, eETC.

Open to thoughts: but kindly please.

EDIT: corrected some errors

Update: After further thinking, I wondered what it would be like if I fought a Megaboss who had 100,000HP and I was doing 100 damage per round at my current rates and my Koga+2 rates.

But you could make the same argument for being naked versus using koga+2:

Using the same math/logic you have, except gearing Koga+2 versus naked body nin. Naked would be 21.9 seconds to 100 tp, which gives 45.6 "average damage." Put that on Koga+2's time scale, and you get 45.6*2.07 = 943.9. That's a 56 damage gap (compared to the 38.65 gap between ninja+1/koga+2). So it takes 12 seconds longer to kill a mob naked than with Koga+2. But I wouldn't say event gear is "just as good" as Koga+2?

Koga+2 takes some effort to get. Ninja NQ takes less effort to get. So why not use ninja (or better gear) when it does more dmg and is easier to get?

Math:Also 38.65 will increase when you put in ws dmg and use something more realistic than 100 total dmg a round (seems low to me). Nin spreadsheet with my gear has Ninja+1 about 5 DPS over Koga+2 for mobs. So over this ~20 second period, that 38.65 would be ~100. This is why Nightfyre mentioned using percent difference rather than numerical difference.

The usefulness debate seems to have been beaten to death already, but I feel obligated to point out that if you're skipping AF you're also missing out on the feet. That said, I disagree that koga is more effort.. the quest lines take a fair amount of running around and with porter moogles a good portion of the population already has koga sitting around. Amounts to like a mil in hopes vs 3 hours running around.

Suck it up and do AF though, at least for feet.

I just want to add something with your calculations too. I agree if you look at 1K and 10K HP it doesn't seem like a big difference. When you used the example of 100,000HP mob you see the difference increases.

You have to think though too not just 1 mob but multiple mobs.

In a worm party if you kill 250 worms solo, and each worm has 4,000hp, that's 1,000,000 HP you've taken down. So that would mean that would be 13 minutes longer using Koga every couple of hours of an exp party. That margin of difference will increase any time you're engaged and hitting a mob.

I think most people over exaggerate when they say "Toss It." I think situationally it's worth having, and overall it's not a bad TP piece, but there is a clear difference between the two.

Coolness. Thanks yall. I am going to go find a spreadsheet and check it out myself. I'd like to see the DPS thing in action.

Glad for the education though, and that there are still people around here willing to provide feedback.

I won't toss out Koga, like I said before; I really like the look of it. I definitely see the merits of just wearing NCM for XP or Aby; but I really only built NIN to proc RED in Aby or for the occasional NM that needs defeating becuz of how great NIN/DNC is. I'll probably wear my Koga for those situations simply out of the fun of it.

CYA!