Cerberus.Deadplaything said: »
so 4 blues 2 schs embrava infinite mp to spam blue dd spells I think we may have something.
Blue Mage In Neo Nyzul
Blue Mage in Neo Nyzul
Embrava doesn't last long enough anymore to be viable method that your run would depend on nor to make 2 schs worth it. You'd have to have like... 4 schs to keep it up for the full 30 mins and that's maximizing the way the sch 2 hour works and extending duration buffs.
There is already a discussion for some ideal setups in the Assult forums.
Consensus right now is the same as before except sub one SCH for a BRD (not sure on bard subjob... probably doesn't matter).
Consensus right now is the same as before except sub one SCH for a BRD (not sure on bard subjob... probably doesn't matter).
Leviathan.Dragonlord said: »
I've been thinking about swapping a sch with brd post-patch as well. However, i think leaving 1 sch is a good idea. They can still regen5ga, enspell-ga, storms and debuff the party quickly with accession. I'm sure bringing blu/wars is ok, but really any high end DD will do. War/drk will outdamage blu/war if they're good (and brd keeps haste songs up), having multiple blus reduces the utility of the individual blus (since others can cover it).
As for cor, i feel they would fall short. Their buffs are pretty useless because you rarely have the group together for more than 2 seconds (on floor jumps). So no time to build up to 11 rolls. They would however add some utility through quickdraw, mainly sleep. I think another job would outdo a cor.
Also why diffusion animating wail when everyone can cast it themselves? Use the merits for something else.
Edit: afterthought - brd and cor can both use movement speed+ buffs. This might warrant the use of both of these jobs since movement is so important here(assuming no fleehack stuff). Interesting idea for post-patch nyzul
As for cor, i feel they would fall short. Their buffs are pretty useless because you rarely have the group together for more than 2 seconds (on floor jumps). So no time to build up to 11 rolls. They would however add some utility through quickdraw, mainly sleep. I think another job would outdo a cor.
Also why diffusion animating wail when everyone can cast it themselves? Use the merits for something else.
Edit: afterthought - brd and cor can both use movement speed+ buffs. This might warrant the use of both of these jobs since movement is so important here(assuming no fleehack stuff). Interesting idea for post-patch nyzul
Having more BLU's doesn't diminish the benefits of them. HP will be more of a concern when you aren't rocking over a 100hp per tick full time. BLU lost the least DD potential out of all the jobs in NNI. Having all DDs capable of Req is nice for the Flan NMs. Sudden Lunge save HP/MP and time.
That WAR/DRK isn't as appealing as it was prenerf. They require far more maintenance in comparison to BLU now. Without Regain, Spell Spam better than or equal to TP+WS.
Having other pt members not suck against Flans and not require nearly as much healing isn't hurting BLU at all.
COR/WHM is there for AoE buffs including movement, -na spells, and quick magical damage.
Diffusion because you can save a little bit of time and mp and you should have one merit into Diffusion anyway.
Eh, you have to set animating wail anyway for DW3 and there is plenty of time to quickly cast it where it won't cut in to your run time especially since you only have to do it once every 5 mins. You can cast it at the rune every few floors while you have to pause for buffs or when waiting for a zone up. Also, while I personally have a merit, it's a play style choice, it's actually not really optimal to have as enchainment 5/5 and assimilation 5/5 would actually give you better damage. I just think it's better to handle it yourself unless your sch is bored and can keep it up consistently.
Be careful about spell spam on floor leaders and remember that Almace is still superior you don't want to be spamming unstacked spells hurt your ODD enhanced dot/ws frequency.
Parsing/mathing will give you definitive actions for the best balance of using them; however it's a general rule of thumb to leave out spells that are unstacked for more DOT. That's not to say it's not necessary to spam spells on nq mobs since you will kill faster with spells that waiting for regain tips/tp but it's something to keep in mind for floor bosses.
Peldin: Since blue falls under Atma of the Onehanded and there are no external buffs (well drinks which would cancel void roar) it's probrably going to benefit from attack boosts on leaders.
Parsing/mathing will give you definitive actions for the best balance of using them; however it's a general rule of thumb to leave out spells that are unstacked for more DOT. That's not to say it's not necessary to spam spells on nq mobs since you will kill faster with spells that waiting for regain tips/tp but it's something to keep in mind for floor bosses.
Peldin: Since blue falls under Atma of the Onehanded and there are no external buffs (well drinks which would cancel void roar) it's probrably going to benefit from attack boosts on leaders.
I'm speaking of spell spam on weaker mobs, along with using common sense on when you use a spell obviously.
Delta and Heavy do amazing DMG/MP and have short recasts, so I would say spam the crap out of those on weaker fodder.
Leaders any one of the BLUs could handle extremely fast with a quick SC and heavy spells.
I have diffusion for versatility. Over the years I'd say Diffusion 1/5 and Enchainment 4/5 has done more for me than Enchainment 5/5 ever could have. Used to use Diffusion for hate or emergency AoE erase. Now I can pair it with Harden Shell, Magic Barrier, or Pyric Bulwark. When low manning Diffusing a buff on mobs with predictable HP triggered TP moves can be very handy. Since we already have it, why not use it?
Also, no SCH.
Delta and Heavy do amazing DMG/MP and have short recasts, so I would say spam the crap out of those on weaker fodder.
Leaders any one of the BLUs could handle extremely fast with a quick SC and heavy spells.
I have diffusion for versatility. Over the years I'd say Diffusion 1/5 and Enchainment 4/5 has done more for me than Enchainment 5/5 ever could have. Used to use Diffusion for hate or emergency AoE erase. Now I can pair it with Harden Shell, Magic Barrier, or Pyric Bulwark. When low manning Diffusing a buff on mobs with predictable HP triggered TP moves can be very handy. Since we already have it, why not use it?
Also, no SCH.
What situations in particular are you using those for diffusion that warrant it? And situations you needed hate with it?
Bilge for aoe def for kill speed or an emergency cure with bloodrake are your best uses usually for UL.
Promy winds for aoe erase also.
Bilge for aoe def for kill speed or an emergency cure with bloodrake are your best uses usually for UL.
Promy winds for aoe erase also.
He was talking about historical uses as well as those outside of nyzul, though I agree, going defensive in nyzul is the wrong way to use UL.
While I prefer the utility of having a merit in diff, I've not really found it that useful in nyzul. The limited buffs as well as duration issues with those that are useful limit it's utility and for certain it's necessity. It's either a minor improvement, or can already be taken care of by someone else so you can do your job, kill ***.
While I prefer the utility of having a merit in diff, I've not really found it that useful in nyzul. The limited buffs as well as duration issues with those that are useful limit it's utility and for certain it's necessity. It's either a minor improvement, or can already be taken care of by someone else so you can do your job, kill ***.
I knew he was, i figured that he had to be referring to some sort of particular low man tanking to justify what he was saying and does frequently.
I figure it's a mostly historical mention as there are few(note I say few, not none) reasons to gather hate with anything but damage.
I'm not saying to use UL with Diffusion in Nyzul. I'm saying since we already have it, for stuff outside NNI, why not use it for a cheap hastega?
it's an option but it's trivial since you can get stronger duration hastes or more efficient hastega from sch.
Or even smn with proper skill can do this, although I'm sure it wont hit 5 mins but it's 3 min cap and can be used every 39seconds (time it goes off in max bp gear).
If you want to it's fine but it's not the end of the world if you don't have it. I have it merited but even I forget to use it.
Or even smn with proper skill can do this, although I'm sure it wont hit 5 mins but it's 3 min cap and can be used every 39seconds (time it goes off in max bp gear).
If you want to it's fine but it's not the end of the world if you don't have it. I have it merited but even I forget to use it.
Remora.Brain said: »
I need to get on the nyzul train soon. I know the nerf will hurt most, but I feel a stand a better chance at hitting 80 consistently without embrava than I do hitting 100 with embrava. Only needing 5 80 clears to get 100 armor is far more appealing to me.
The embrava nerf seems to favor BLUs far more for the event now. I was thinking of a COR/WHM, BRD/WHM, BLU/WARx3, BLU/WHM setup.
AoE buffs to cut time with BRD COR and Diffusion Wail rotation. Leave the BRD at the lamp, split to BLU/WARx2 + COR/WHM and BLU/WAR + BLU/WHM.
All BLUs have Almace, our BRD has horn and harp songs, and the COR has the laser gun.
Anyone think this will work?
The embrava nerf seems to favor BLUs far more for the event now. I was thinking of a COR/WHM, BRD/WHM, BLU/WARx3, BLU/WHM setup.
AoE buffs to cut time with BRD COR and Diffusion Wail rotation. Leave the BRD at the lamp, split to BLU/WARx2 + COR/WHM and BLU/WAR + BLU/WHM.
All BLUs have Almace, our BRD has horn and harp songs, and the COR has the laser gun.
Anyone think this will work?
COR/DNC is probably superior to COR/WHM, and DD with Exen or last stand. You get DW and instant sneak/invis. You also generate TP faster than MP on COR if you need cure and -na.
I think you're confusing your arguments.
I have Diffusion for means outside of NNI
I'd use Diffusion Animating Wail because we have it.
It saves a little time and mp in NNI. You wouldn't bring a SMN to NNI. A SCH will be busy and split off with one of your 2 DD groups, that and the group I outlined wouldn't have a SCH.
The idea is the SCH isn't needed. A BLU/SCH (forgot SCH got na spells) can do all the heavy healing needed and contribute to quickly killing mobs. The kill speed difference on fodder mobs post embrava nerf isn't much different between WAR/DRK and BLU. 4 BLUs 1 BRD 1 COR would kill just as fast, if not faster than 4 2hander DD and a SCH and BRD. They also get Bolter's.
I have Diffusion for means outside of NNI
I'd use Diffusion Animating Wail because we have it.
It saves a little time and mp in NNI. You wouldn't bring a SMN to NNI. A SCH will be busy and split off with one of your 2 DD groups, that and the group I outlined wouldn't have a SCH.
The idea is the SCH isn't needed. A BLU/SCH (forgot SCH got na spells) can do all the heavy healing needed and contribute to quickly killing mobs. The kill speed difference on fodder mobs post embrava nerf isn't much different between WAR/DRK and BLU. 4 BLUs 1 BRD 1 COR would kill just as fast, if not faster than 4 2hander DD and a SCH and BRD. They also get Bolter's.
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
COR/DNC is probably superior to COR/WHM, and DD with Exen or last stand. You get DW and instant sneak/invis. You also generate TP faster than MP on COR if you need cure and -na.
That could work. I was thinking the COR would be busy trying to roll and keeping TP for blasting flans to death with Shots/Wildfire, so you'd want a staff on. MP isn't hard to come by and should only be spent on Erase and certain -na spells. Again /SCH could serve the same purpose better than /WHM.
Remora.Brain said: »
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
COR/DNC is probably superior to COR/WHM, and DD with Exen or last stand. You get DW and instant sneak/invis. You also generate TP faster than MP on COR if you need cure and -na.
That could work. I was thinking the COR would be busy trying to roll and keeping TP for blasting flans to death with Shots/Wildfire, so you'd want a staff on. MP isn't hard to come by and should only be spent on Erase and certain -na spells. Again /SCH could serve the same purpose better than /WHM.
Why'd you use a staff in Nyzul, you're just gimping your output. For ANY EP/DC mob with haste and no risk from AoE, staff is never ideal. With march from BRD melee weapon is way superior for both dmg dealing and generating TP, on top of getting TP from regain. And why'd you want to try to roll more than once when most of the time you should be killing mobs?
Exen or last stand on bird type mob, Wildfire on flans. Physical WS should be superior to WF on most of the mobs with RCB though. Have BLU's self -na it's faster than having a COR running to them and -na them.
Your BLUs shouldn't be using a subjob that's allowing them to self -na
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Your BLUs shouldn't be using a subjob that's allowing them to self -na
Oops, I thought he meant erase.
I sure hope not D: that'd be silly
Gimp said: »
it's an option but it's trivial since you can get stronger duration hastes or more efficient hastega from sch.
Also giving haste longer duration is eating up SCH charges, which they don't have any charges for at least 48 seconds after buffing on Floor 1. I could be wrong, but I don't think SCH's use perpetuance for haste unless they're sitting on 4-5 charges.
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
While I prefer the utility of having a merit in diff, I've not really found it that useful in nyzul. The limited buffs as well as duration issues with those that are useful limit it's utility and for certain it's necessity. It's either a minor improvement, or can already be taken care of by someone else so you can do your job, kill ***.
I responded in context to the question which was outside of NNI because it was because it was the question Brain asked.
Didn't know sch couldn't hastega but they can give better haste. There's nothing wrong with expecting more from your mages. I am aware (lol) because people that can't keep up haste on DD that it affects performance greatly and it's something I enjoy having as Blu. Not saying blu doesn't help with that but the sch could be doing a better job even without charges.
Didn't know sch couldn't hastega but they can give better haste. There's nothing wrong with expecting more from your mages. I am aware (lol) because people that can't keep up haste on DD that it affects performance greatly and it's something I enjoy having as Blu. Not saying blu doesn't help with that but the sch could be doing a better job even without charges.
Gimp said: »
I responded in context to the question which was outside of NNI because it was because it was the question Brain asked.
Didn't know sch couldn't hastega but they can give better haste. There's nothing wrong with expecting more from your mages. I am aware (lol) because people that can't keep up haste on DD that it affects performance greatly and it's something I enjoy having as Blu. Not saying blu doesn't help with that but the sch could be doing better even without charges.
Didn't know sch couldn't hastega but they can give better haste. There's nothing wrong with expecting more from your mages. I am aware (lol) because people that can't keep up haste on DD that it affects performance greatly and it's something I enjoy having as Blu. Not saying blu doesn't help with that but the sch could be doing better even without charges.
Haste is 15%. Duration is 3 minutes. Cast time is 6 seconds. Recast is 20 seconds.
With no charges, this is what Scholar gives to a single person.
Animating Wail is 15%. Duration is 5 minutes. Cast time is 2 seconds. Recast time doesn't matter.
BLU can give this 3 times in a NINI run to the entire group.
First time - while SCHs are putting up embrava, phalanx, shell, and regen5. IE - no additional waiting.
When it wears off, SCHs will re-haste the other 3 DD. BLU will re-haste himself.
Second time - the floor after BLU's self haste wears off. DD wait time is the time it takes BLU to hit diffusion and the 2-sec cast time.
Third time - the floor after you get the 5-min warning, or floor 80+
This insures everyone has haste for the most important floors
Again, Diffusion/Animating Wail is not just a small convenience.
How's a SCH going to be doing better without charges? Just using quick ideal numbers, to give a glimpse of how it is:
If you use a Diffusion Wail rotation you can keep all DD hasted for the duration of the run for 318mp divided between the BLUs.
A SCH without charges would spend 1600mp keeping haste up for 30minutes on 4 DD. Not only that, but the SCH wouldn't be able to keep it up full time for obvious reasons.
As for the COR: sticking with the staff and /mage for Wildfire is the plan in our group. You'll contribute more by rolling when you can, Shot/WFing melee resistant mobs, and being able to -na faster and more accurately. Cures are more potent, not that you'd need em, and you can easily recover MP. Engaging and disengaging constantly seems like a waste of your time.
If you use a Diffusion Wail rotation you can keep all DD hasted for the duration of the run for 318mp divided between the BLUs.
A SCH without charges would spend 1600mp keeping haste up for 30minutes on 4 DD. Not only that, but the SCH wouldn't be able to keep it up full time for obvious reasons.
As for the COR: sticking with the staff and /mage for Wildfire is the plan in our group. You'll contribute more by rolling when you can, Shot/WFing melee resistant mobs, and being able to -na faster and more accurately. Cures are more potent, not that you'd need em, and you can easily recover MP. Engaging and disengaging constantly seems like a waste of your time.
Your cast and recast times are naked without FC/haste.
You still have one of the scholars following the dds to give them cures, dia II on nms, and able to provide haste regardless. You also have on the boss floors both of the scholars there to do haste with no consequence. You do half of the haste casting for haste overall but it's not realistic to say that you can't do a haste cycle on your dd in NNI. It's not hard and you can alternate which teams your sch goes with on each floor jump because no one person should need constant attention all the time because of having so many buffs on them.
I'm not denying that the way you're using is a very good way to use diffusion but it can be worked without.
You still have one of the scholars following the dds to give them cures, dia II on nms, and able to provide haste regardless. You also have on the boss floors both of the scholars there to do haste with no consequence. You do half of the haste casting for haste overall but it's not realistic to say that you can't do a haste cycle on your dd in NNI. It's not hard and you can alternate which teams your sch goes with on each floor jump because no one person should need constant attention all the time because of having so many buffs on them.
I'm not denying that the way you're using is a very good way to use diffusion but it can be worked without.
I feel like we're having two different conversations.
There is no SCH in my group post Embrava nerf. At that point they're just a waste of a PT slot.
There is no SCH in my group post Embrava nerf. At that point they're just a waste of a PT slot.
I'm talking about Embrava as it is now and have been in the times I was talking about NNI.
Your numbers are at a glance aren't enough.
You're not excluding the blue mage that hastes himself all the time(which would be 3 DD, assuming that both of the scholars are riding the recast for charges)
How much mp both of the sch(yes both because each spends time at the lamp) are dividing that mp and how much mp they are getting back through idle/sublimation and/or temps? The 1600/2 sch the amount assuming that the 3 DD (not 4 because that's what you were accounting for so it's less mp) isn't going to be accurate either.
Your numbers are at a glance aren't enough.
You're not excluding the blue mage that hastes himself all the time(which would be 3 DD, assuming that both of the scholars are riding the recast for charges)
How much mp both of the sch(yes both because each spends time at the lamp) are dividing that mp and how much mp they are getting back through idle/sublimation and/or temps? The 1600/2 sch the amount assuming that the 3 DD (not 4 because that's what you were accounting for so it's less mp) isn't going to be accurate either.
So you're talking about a situation that has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about?
dafuq
dafuq
Remora.Brain said: »
So you're talking about a situation that has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about?
dafuq
dafuq
No. Your situation is inaccurate and skewed to prove one point of view. I adjusted it and gave the other side of what you weren't accounting for.
It's still very relevant to what you're talking about.
No it isn't you tard.
What part of BRD/SCH, COR/SCH, BLU/SCH, BLU/WAR x3 post embrava nerf haven't you gotten?
My situation is very accurate, you're just not following.
What part of BRD/SCH, COR/SCH, BLU/SCH, BLU/WAR x3 post embrava nerf haven't you gotten?
My situation is very accurate, you're just not following.
Remora.Brain said: »
As for the COR: sticking with the staff and /mage for Wildfire is the plan in our group. You'll contribute more by rolling when you can, Shot/WFing melee resistant mobs, and being able to -na faster and more accurately. Cures are more potent, not that you'd need em, and you can easily recover MP. Engaging and disengaging constantly seems like a waste of your time.
I gave you my input about it, if you don't believe me then I have nothing to say. You sound like you're can't shot/WF/roll if you don't use a staff though. And everyone engages, fail to see why COR can't.
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