BRD/NIN Tanking

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2010-06-21
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BRD/NIN Tanking
 Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2012-07-14 23:50:09  
Fenrir.Minjo said: »
Until paladin became the paladin we know and ignore. There's really no competition anymore. There's no job that doesn't look like a sheet of glass juxtaposed to a reasonably equipped paladin at this point.

Square could undo the enmity adjustment on pertinent spells tomorrow, and red mage would still be an absolutely atrocious tank by comparison.
CSB, game is different 2 years later
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-07-14 23:51:44  
Cerberus.Eugene said: »
Fenrir.Minjo said: »
Until paladin became the paladin we know and ignore. There's really no competition anymore. There's no job that doesn't look like a sheet of glass juxtaposed to a reasonably equipped paladin at this point.

Square could undo the enmity adjustment on pertinent spells tomorrow, and red mage would still be an absolutely atrocious tank by comparison.
CSB, game is different 2 years later
Considering we didn't have Ochain back then, yes, it has.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-07-14 23:54:23  
I still say that the easiest way to fix Paladin would be to give it the ability to actively reduce the enmity of nearby party members, either through an enmity-draining "aura" effect or an EX-weapon skill that has an additional effect of reducing the enmity of nearby party members.

Would kind of kill Collaborator/Acccomplice, but who the *** cares anyway.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2012-07-15 00:04:59  
Hate management has always been one of the key elements to major large-scale fights. That kind of implementation would pretty much wreck the part of the game that goes beyond dd+whm'ing stuff.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-07-15 00:08:59  
It still wouldn't help mages (unless they were standing by you), and since it's reduction, not reset, you'd still have to play under the radar of the abilit(ies).

The strength could easily be set to the point where it's possible to play intelligently and remain under the paladin's enmity cover, but aggressive tactics would generate hate faster than the paladin could compensate.
 Bismarck.Helel
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By Bismarck.Helel 2012-07-15 00:09:26  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
So, lets start this post out by recognizing three things:
1) There are at most a handful of fights in the game right now that would suit a BRD/NIN tank.
2) This would be competitive with level 75 era "holding" tanks like NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN, not with level 99 "tanks" that are basically DDs with some form of substantial damage mitigation/negation.
3) I'm mostly making this post to collect feedback from others before I try to do it. I think it could be fun to tank things on bard and my LS has two excellent bards (but not many people total).

Advantages:
Horde Lullaby/Foe Lullaby/Foe Lullaby II - 240 CE, 24 second recast
Horde Lullaby II - 320 CE (for some reason), 24 second recast
Any Threnody, Elegy, etc. - 240 VE, 100 CE

I haven't actually tested the VE values of Lullabies, because it would require me to find a low level monster that resists my lullabies (like Light Elementals in Qufim, which means waiting for an Aurora).

Now, you might look at the above and be all "okay, wat? How will that let me tank?" Well, Bard can get 80% Casting time reduction with a good build, making these songs almost instant. Also, using a set like this should effectively eliminate their recast:

Assuming 2 seconds per song, Bard could cap Enmity with the above build in approximately a minute. This is, you'll note, not even considering Nightingale, which could be used to let the bards cast even faster.

An aside on damage mitigation:
Sentinel's Scherzo and Earthen Armor with BRD/NIN HP pretty much take care of TP moves and spells (95% damage reduction for TP moves that would take >75% of your max HP), but you could also do the 50% PDT/MDT route if you didn't have Earthen Armor or for "oh ***" moments. Utsusemi recast is a non-issue.


Competition:
Currently the only tanks in the game are Paladins with Aegis and Ochain. For events where shield blocking is useful (like holding a bunch of monsters in Voidwatch), Paladin will still be the clearly superior option because they don't actually need to cap hate and their durability advantages against autoattacks will win the day. However, the game's recent lowman shift has led me to look for lower-man alternatives. If we need to do a fight (like Arch-Omega) with PLD, WHM, and BRD already, what if we could have the BRD tank and switch the PLD to RNG or SMN? Excalibur is less impressive than it was at 75. Many monsters currently resist Atonement. It's perfectly reasonable to think that a RNG could outdamage a Paladin against many new monsters.

Strategically, Paladin's weakness is still their lack of any way to generate substantial CE other than their sword or MP inefficient cure-force sets. Take Arch-Omega as an example again. He starts out in Four-Legged mode (physically resistant), which means that any successful magic DD (except Summoner) is going to rip hate off a PLD quickly by capping VE and CE. BRD/NIN doesn't have this problem. Flying Wyrms. Kited fights. Doesn't matter. Spam Spam Spam.

Anyway, that's all I've got. The promise of new wyrms with Seekers is bringing my attention back to Paladin's weaknesses.

Arch-omega probably isn't the greatest example to use. Requiescat bypasses the physical resistance. Assuming you have embrava up, hate isn't usually an issue with 2 melees. BLUx2 + SCH is an easy win. Definitely don't need a PLD.

I would think BLU would fare better as a tank than a BRD too. All they have to do is spam fantod and stand there (at the very least). You do lose march though.

I know people used to use BRD tank way back when mazurka gave a shitload of hate. Not sure it's so practical anymore when there are better options out there like BLU (dismissing PLD for the moment).
 Shiva.Cziella
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By Shiva.Cziella 2012-07-15 15:51:24  
Pretty sure the point of the post is not about BRD being a better tank than the other classes, but a reliable option if it was needed at some point in some situation.
 Bismarck.Helel
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By Bismarck.Helel 2012-07-15 16:02:00  
Shiva.Cziella said: »
Pretty sure the point of the post is not about BRD being a better tank than the other classes, but a reliable option if it was needed at some point in some situation.

Then you clearly didn't read because byrth was making the point that versus flying mobs (wyrms) or arch-omega (mobs that resist physical) BRD could perform better than PLD.

My point is that yes, I do believe BRD could excel on mobs like those, however BLU would be a better choice. If the person doesn't have BLU leveled, then by all means go BRD. I just don't see the point in arguing for an inferior job choice (if you agree with my assessment). If you don't agree then I'm happy to debate the pro/cons.
 Shiva.Cziella
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By Shiva.Cziella 2012-07-15 16:08:27  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
So, lets start this post out by recognizing three things:
1) There are at most a handful of fights in the game right now that would suit a BRD/NIN tank.
2) This would be competitive with level 75 era "holding" tanks like NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN, not with level 99 "tanks" that are basically DDs with some form of substantial damage mitigation/negation.
3) I'm mostly making this post to collect feedback from others before I try to do it. I think it could be fun to tank things on bard and my LS has two excellent bards (but not many people total).

I did read, or at least tried, did you? Just because he made an example of a scenario doesn't means it applies to everything, or that he stated that BRD is better than PLD on every single fight/content.
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2012-07-15 16:33:09  
SE should really atleast raise the current cap on CE\VE, if not rework the whole system.
It was a very solid system that worked well at 75, but we've really outgrown it now that it takes 1 good weaponskill to pretty much cap hate >_>
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2012-07-15 16:35:35  
And on the topic of different tanks, does'nt absorb spells still give decent hate?
If so, gogo DRK\NIN again :P
Would need a solid source of refresh to make those spamable though ;;
 Siren.Buddah
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By Siren.Buddah 2012-07-15 17:07:01  
Just wondering, as im far from a real BRD; If u were to lowman an NM (any), what actions would be taken if your pt pulls hate (eg, rng)? Keep dancing?
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By Latifah 2012-07-15 17:12:06  
That was a nice brd solo video on the first page, would be nice if they buff brd like crazy. @ Next expan and make it bad *** like ff14 brd.
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