BLU's got tools at its disposal for damage reduction as well. Most irrelevant difference between the two. Regardless, this is a damage comparison which is what I was calling into question. Overall worth of job vs job hinges on many factors, BLU offering several things that MNK can't while MNK has, well, higher HP I guess.
As a sidenote, Penance isn't too fantastic when you've got lots of people beating on things. It'll get TP ridiculously fast either way, and one could make a case for Reaving Wind.
Also your Taru/death thing is confusing. Either would affect both jobs equally, or if anything would hurt MNK even more due to diminishing its STR edge.
Is A Mythic Even Feasible Anymore For A Newbie?
Is a Mythic even feasible anymore for a newbie?
When your HP hits 0, your DPS drops drastically. I'm not disagreeing that BLU should be welcome anywhere MNK is, nor am I saying MNK is better(in fact, I'd say BLU is a better overall job due to the aforementioned utility and wide proc spread). I just can't see how you can call them equal as DD.
Explain to me how your HP hitting 0 on BLU is affecting it more than your HP hitting 0 on MNK? The values are expressed in average percentages, those won't change as long as both jobs remain equal in terms of conditions theyre put under.
I may just be missing something here but I don't see how dying is increasing MNK's advantage unless you're assuming the BLU is for some reason dying far more frequently than the MNK, which would be incorrect.
I may just be missing something here but I don't see how dying is increasing MNK's advantage unless you're assuming the BLU is for some reason dying far more frequently than the MNK, which would be incorrect.
If your brds and cors are as perfect as they are supposed to be for the simulation let's just assume your whm can cure.
Valefor.Applebottoms said: »
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
The majority of our White Mages never learned Haste, either. What really annoys me, though, is when I notice that they only learned the self-target version of Haste.
I mean, keeping a three person Haste order... Is it really that hard?
I mean, keeping a three person Haste order... Is it really that hard?
You'd be surprised when some ask me why I'm casting Barspells on Qilin or other NMs. -.-
Idk, most of the time I feel far more vulnerable on MNK than I do on BLU. On BLU I have Occultation, cures, Cocoon, Sudden Lunge, sleeps, Delta Thrust...
On MNK I get Chakra, Perfect Counter, and Counterstance.
Perfect Counter, Counterstance, Sleeps, and Delta Thrust are irrelevant for most of the targets of this simulation. Occultation is irrelevant on some of them as well, however works more effectively for damage mitigation than counterstance will.
On MNK I get Chakra, Perfect Counter, and Counterstance.
Perfect Counter, Counterstance, Sleeps, and Delta Thrust are irrelevant for most of the targets of this simulation. Occultation is irrelevant on some of them as well, however works more effectively for damage mitigation than counterstance will.
if BLU is casting occultation, their damage is dropping
if BLU is casting cures on themselves, their damage is dropping
if BLU is casting cocoon, sleeps, delta thrust, their damage is dropping
if your simulation is going to assume you spend all your time meleeing(and casting dd spells maybe? idk since i cant see it), then you're going to need to consider the survivability difference because there clearly is one
if you're going to compare blu using defensive spells to mnk then you need to account for the time the spells take to cast
if BLU is casting cures on themselves, their damage is dropping
if BLU is casting cocoon, sleeps, delta thrust, their damage is dropping
if your simulation is going to assume you spend all your time meleeing(and casting dd spells maybe? idk since i cant see it), then you're going to need to consider the survivability difference because there clearly is one
if you're going to compare blu using defensive spells to mnk then you need to account for the time the spells take to cast
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
if BLU is casting occultation, their damage is dropping
if BLU is casting cures on themselves, their damage is dropping
if BLU is casting cocoon, sleeps, delta thrust, their damage is dropping
if your simulation is going to assume you spend all your time meleeing(and casting dd spells maybe? idk since i cant see it), then you're going to need to consider the survivability difference because there clearly is one
if you're going to compare blu using defensive spells to mnk then you need to account for the time the spells take to cast
if BLU is casting cures on themselves, their damage is dropping
if BLU is casting cocoon, sleeps, delta thrust, their damage is dropping
if your simulation is going to assume you spend all your time meleeing(and casting dd spells maybe? idk since i cant see it), then you're going to need to consider the survivability difference because there clearly is one
if you're going to compare blu using defensive spells to mnk then you need to account for the time the spells take to cast
yes because blu spell damage just sucks sooooooo badly right...? LOL
You're not taking into account the fact that BLU doesn't need to use those things any more than MNK does, with the exception of cocoon and occultation being a more efficient use of time than losing a couple of sword swings due to their low casting time.
Conversely, waiting to use Chi Blast for a mostly useless debuff and/or Counterstance/Chakra will cause equal or greater time cost for the MNK. This goes both ways, not just toward BLU.
The survivability difference isn't there. Your extra couple hundred HP won't very often be a significant difference in damage gains/loss compared to whatever a BLU is doing.
If I stop to cast a spell, it will be for a more efficient damage output, not a loss. For example, Bilgestorm or Tourbillion, Bilgestorm right now since Tourbillion is broken being a 25% Attack and Defense penalty on the monster, increasing overall damage and damage taken efficiency of my alliance by far more than anything a MNK will be putting out, all for about 5~6s or so of my attack time. I won't be stopping to cast Magic Fruit on myself often due to the fact that I expect my WHM will be capable of doing their job on me just as well as they do for a MNK.
MNK does not have close to the same defensive options that BLU does. I didn't even mention Magic Barrier, whose short recast and casting time will absorb several hundred magic damage that a MNK won't be able to mitigate, possibly saving the BLU's life and letting the MNK die. Chances are that if something is deadly enough to warrant the use of Cocoon or Occultation, the MNK is not going to survive all that well as it has no bonus mitigation to deal with it that a BLU does not have access to.
This argument goes both ways, it can't be used as a positive case for either job, and is thus irrelevant.
Conversely, waiting to use Chi Blast for a mostly useless debuff and/or Counterstance/Chakra will cause equal or greater time cost for the MNK. This goes both ways, not just toward BLU.
The survivability difference isn't there. Your extra couple hundred HP won't very often be a significant difference in damage gains/loss compared to whatever a BLU is doing.
If I stop to cast a spell, it will be for a more efficient damage output, not a loss. For example, Bilgestorm or Tourbillion, Bilgestorm right now since Tourbillion is broken being a 25% Attack and Defense penalty on the monster, increasing overall damage and damage taken efficiency of my alliance by far more than anything a MNK will be putting out, all for about 5~6s or so of my attack time. I won't be stopping to cast Magic Fruit on myself often due to the fact that I expect my WHM will be capable of doing their job on me just as well as they do for a MNK.
MNK does not have close to the same defensive options that BLU does. I didn't even mention Magic Barrier, whose short recast and casting time will absorb several hundred magic damage that a MNK won't be able to mitigate, possibly saving the BLU's life and letting the MNK die. Chances are that if something is deadly enough to warrant the use of Cocoon or Occultation, the MNK is not going to survive all that well as it has no bonus mitigation to deal with it that a BLU does not have access to.
This argument goes both ways, it can't be used as a positive case for either job, and is thus irrelevant.
[+]
yeah occultation damage is pretty bad
[+]
I have mnk at 655 hp more than blu when both /war(if blu uses diff sub, my apologies please correct me) for galka, 505 for hume. This increases if you have HP+% atmacite(Valiant is a common choice for MNK, imagine for BLU as well).
If we're talking about perfect, every bad TP move stunned, attentive mages situations.. change to DRK because both MNK and BLU are notably behind.
If we're talking about PUG vw, 500 HP is a pretty large chunk. If procs come up short on any higher tier, there's a good probability of death. This is the reason my friend and I generally use MNKs as our DD when doing VW with low #s/duo despite having 5 rag99s between us. It's pretty noticable.
I know you're buttmad about FFXIV thread, but every spell I listed does no damage except for Delta Thrust, which is less than stellar. They're defensive spells.
If we're talking about perfect, every bad TP move stunned, attentive mages situations.. change to DRK because both MNK and BLU are notably behind.
If we're talking about PUG vw, 500 HP is a pretty large chunk. If procs come up short on any higher tier, there's a good probability of death. This is the reason my friend and I generally use MNKs as our DD when doing VW with low #s/duo despite having 5 rag99s between us. It's pretty noticable.
Eike said:
yes because blu spell damage just sucks sooooooo badly right...? LOL
Ya know what's hilarious about your argument though? The fact you list occultation as being a spell that limits dmg.. yet it's blink, but you list having more hp as being positive for mnk.... So me blinking saves hp, thus negating the hp difference between the two jobs (save being one-shotted). So where is your logic behind this?
Number's wrong, 2127 - 1622 = you've got a 505 HP advantage over BLU as a Galka before gear/merits. It's still 505 for Hume vs Hume.
In VW HP is irrelevant, you shouldn't be taking damage to begin with, and when you do, that 500~HP isn't saving your life any more than my own natural mechanisms on BLU (my spells will cost me a small amount of DPS, but will boost my effective HP by far more than 505), Fanatics/Fools, or a Potion. Not sure why you're even bringing it up. What if my Blink or Flash absorbs an attack that'd Amnesia or Slow me otherwise? Whose got the higher ground now? It's irrelevant, and your points are all ignoring factors that would neutralize them.
If I'm going to die on BLU, you're just as liable to die on MNK.
Anyways, my main point: BLU is no less valuable than a MNK, and both jobs are irrelevant for things like Legion, and my entire issue was with MNK being so far ahead of BLU on byrth's list and in other's minds despite the fact that the difference is minute or nonexistent. I've done all I can to prove that at this point.
Also as an addendum to that, Spharai MNK doesn't deserve to be anywhere near either a Vere MNK or an Almace BLU.
In VW HP is irrelevant, you shouldn't be taking damage to begin with, and when you do, that 500~HP isn't saving your life any more than my own natural mechanisms on BLU (my spells will cost me a small amount of DPS, but will boost my effective HP by far more than 505), Fanatics/Fools, or a Potion. Not sure why you're even bringing it up. What if my Blink or Flash absorbs an attack that'd Amnesia or Slow me otherwise? Whose got the higher ground now? It's irrelevant, and your points are all ignoring factors that would neutralize them.
If I'm going to die on BLU, you're just as liable to die on MNK.
Anyways, my main point: BLU is no less valuable than a MNK, and both jobs are irrelevant for things like Legion, and my entire issue was with MNK being so far ahead of BLU on byrth's list and in other's minds despite the fact that the difference is minute or nonexistent. I've done all I can to prove that at this point.
Also as an addendum to that, Spharai MNK doesn't deserve to be anywhere near either a Vere MNK or an Almace BLU.
[+]
You're stating that BLU fully focused on offense is only slightly behind MNK in DPS, which is true. They're notably behind in defense under those circumstances.. I don't know how you can call 500 HP irrelevant. When calculating probability of staying alive, HP has drastically increasing returns and you're already looking at a gain of ~30%. In that case, MNK wins notably in survivability and slightly in DPS.
If you're going to use defensive spells, your damage difference increases. In that case, MNK wins notably in survivability and loses notably in defense.
In an ideal group with decent luck, the mob will be procced enough that fanatics stays up and defense doesn't matter, so MNK is only slightly ahead. If you get a pop with a lot of procs you don't have covered, BLU is going to have to spend a lot of time casting defensive spells and lowering their damage while MNK is going to be safe enough without lowering their damage.
Survivability can be expressed as probability of death, and prevention is measured in seconds of alive without intervention. 500 HP is almost always 4 more seconds to react(an additional TP move or melee swing). That's a significant difference. If you choose to ignore this as a benefit, that's your perogative and there's nothing further I can say to convince you otherwise.
If you're going to use defensive spells, your damage difference increases. In that case, MNK wins notably in survivability and loses notably in defense.
In an ideal group with decent luck, the mob will be procced enough that fanatics stays up and defense doesn't matter, so MNK is only slightly ahead. If you get a pop with a lot of procs you don't have covered, BLU is going to have to spend a lot of time casting defensive spells and lowering their damage while MNK is going to be safe enough without lowering their damage.
Survivability can be expressed as probability of death, and prevention is measured in seconds of alive without intervention. 500 HP is almost always 4 more seconds to react(an additional TP move or melee swing). That's a significant difference. If you choose to ignore this as a benefit, that's your perogative and there's nothing further I can say to convince you otherwise.
MNK > BLU. /thread
You're not accounting for the fact that I have ways to compensate for the small loss in DPS by casting my defensive spells. It isn't difficult to understand.
You have 500 HP. That's all you have. I have a myriad of tools at my disposal to mitigate damage for myself and my alliance and ways to increase my damage and my alliance's to regain my "loss" in DPS from casting my spells. I wouldn't be casting defensive spells in the first place unless it's an attack that's so critical it'll be endangering the lives of both myself and the MNK. There is nothing that I won't be able to mitigate and less effectively than a MNK can just because I have 500 less HP, and in circumstances where the attack is so potent that I will need to go to extra lengths to do so, the MNK is likely in dire peril and/or I can regain my lost ground through utility that MNK does not have.
Your inability to grasp this concept is irritating.
and wat. increasing returns on HP? by what possible measure
You have 500 HP. That's all you have. I have a myriad of tools at my disposal to mitigate damage for myself and my alliance and ways to increase my damage and my alliance's to regain my "loss" in DPS from casting my spells. I wouldn't be casting defensive spells in the first place unless it's an attack that's so critical it'll be endangering the lives of both myself and the MNK. There is nothing that I won't be able to mitigate and less effectively than a MNK can just because I have 500 less HP, and in circumstances where the attack is so potent that I will need to go to extra lengths to do so, the MNK is likely in dire peril and/or I can regain my lost ground through utility that MNK does not have.
Your inability to grasp this concept is irritating.
and wat. increasing returns on HP? by what possible measure
You and Draylo like BLU way too much.
Doesn't look like you accounted subjobs or food in at all. Which I'd think would favor mnk due to the lack of an attack buff native to the job.
The post says Red Curry Buns directly in it, and both jobs were subbing WAR. It doesn't favor MNK any more than it favors BLU, in fact it favors BLU even more by bolstering its already higher attack frequency. I even went so far as to add berserk up and down states for both jobs along with Impetus up/down states.
Furthermore wat? If you're counting Triumphant Roar as a native attack bonus then you're a bit off on that, it's never worth casting.
Furthermore wat? If you're counting Triumphant Roar as a native attack bonus then you're a bit off on that, it's never worth casting.
Bahamut.Serj said: »
Doesn't look like you accounted subjobs or food in at all. Which I'd think would favor mnk due to the lack of an attack buff native to the job.
Blu has attack bonus natively too? When did this happen?
if you're talking about legion you're going to be attack capped so the debuff spells are pretty irrelevant also
Ukon > all.
Oops wrong pissing match thread.
Oops wrong pissing match thread.
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said: »
Oops wrong pissing match thread.
I really don't think it's even that. I think Proth is trying to dispel the bad stigma that blu can't quite keep up, when it can. Mnk is looked at as this high end DD, when clearly blu is right on par if not better in some situations.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
The post says Red Curry Buns directly in it, and both jobs were subbing WAR. It doesn't favor MNK any more than it favors BLU, in fact it favors BLU even more by bolstering its already higher attack frequency. I even went so far as to add berserk up and down states for both jobs along with Impetus up/down states.
Furthermore wat? If you're counting Triumphant Roar as a native attack bonus then you're a bit off on that, it's never worth casting.
Furthermore wat? If you're counting Triumphant Roar as a native attack bonus then you're a bit off on that, it's never worth casting.
Honestly midread attack values on mnk, thought I was seeing 500~.
And hell, a single dispel right after Impetus goes up would immediately remove MNK's only advantage lol.
But this has nothing to do about even obtaining a mythic!
Odin.Eikechi said: »
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said: »
Oops wrong pissing match thread.
I really don't think it's even that. I think Proth is trying to dispel the bad stigma that blu can't quite keep up, when it can. Mnk is looked at as this high end DD, when clearly blu is right on par if not better in some situations.
This. I'm not saying BLU is better, I'm saying it's on par with.
Both of the jobs have factors that make them incredibly close to equal.
MNK has higher critical hit rate and damage 60% of the time, slightly higher attack (moderately higher 60% of the time), and higher base damage leading to superior melee DoT
BLU has superior attack rate, weaponskill rate, weaponskill damage 40% of the time, critical hit rate most of the time during TP and ~40% of the time during WS, and ODD favors BLU as it closes the gap between the higher D of MNK and the lower D of swords more than you'd think.
Honestly, until 1h calculations are changed, they'll never be competitive with other jobs, so the pissing contest is moot.
And OA2-3/ODD on HtH. ***is so stupid.
And OA2-3/ODD on HtH. ***is so stupid.
Yeah, again, not a pissing contest, merely stating that they're both on the same ground and one should not be held above the other. I'd bring a DRK or WAR over either any day.
If 1h pDIF is ever changed to be more favorable, both MNK and BLU would be sufficiently strong enough to stand with the big boys, though DRK and WAR would still come out on top because they have so many things aside from that stacked in their favor.
If 1h pDIF is ever changed to be more favorable, both MNK and BLU would be sufficiently strong enough to stand with the big boys, though DRK and WAR would still come out on top because they have so many things aside from that stacked in their favor.
And there's no reason that the BLU with his proc spells set can't do the myriad of tools that increase your damage and your alliances and the MNKs.
If you're going to compare the jobs under ideal conditions, you should be prepared to accept that anything you expect to do will alter those conditions. Want to count your def-25% move? Sure hope you weren't starting at capped attack for your comparison. Want to count your traits? Then you can't use a spellset that doesn't include them. Want to include your proccing utility? Better gut your traits and spells..
I don't see why BLUs are always like this. You can't do EVERYTHING at once. You can produce a DD with godlike survivability and some nice help to the party. You can cover an amazing amount of procs for voidwatch, and a couple for abyssea. You can't do them all at once, because set points and party dynamic just don't allow for it.
Increasing returns on HP, like this:
Mob's highest TP move does ~1300. Melee does 350. A DD with 1600 HP will have a reaction time of 1.5-4 seconds after the TP move before the next melee to intervene. A DD with 2100 HP will have 5.5-8 seconds after the TP move to get cured/stun/fanatics/proc/w.e. In that scenario(particularly favorable to the comparison, but not absurdly unrealistic), you've gained over 100% reaction time allotment. In most situations, you're gaining at least 20-30% by being on MNK. MP usage is largely irrelevant at this point in the game, which adds much more value to ability to stay alive longer unassisted.
The Part You Seem To Have Missed
-I've already stated BLU is a suitable substitute everywhere.
-I've already acknowledged that BLU has a variety of situations where it will be very useful.
-If HP has no weight, and you aren't a procwhore, you should be on a 2h DD.
If you're going to compare the jobs under ideal conditions, you should be prepared to accept that anything you expect to do will alter those conditions. Want to count your def-25% move? Sure hope you weren't starting at capped attack for your comparison. Want to count your traits? Then you can't use a spellset that doesn't include them. Want to include your proccing utility? Better gut your traits and spells..
I don't see why BLUs are always like this. You can't do EVERYTHING at once. You can produce a DD with godlike survivability and some nice help to the party. You can cover an amazing amount of procs for voidwatch, and a couple for abyssea. You can't do them all at once, because set points and party dynamic just don't allow for it.
Increasing returns on HP, like this:
Mob's highest TP move does ~1300. Melee does 350. A DD with 1600 HP will have a reaction time of 1.5-4 seconds after the TP move before the next melee to intervene. A DD with 2100 HP will have 5.5-8 seconds after the TP move to get cured/stun/fanatics/proc/w.e. In that scenario(particularly favorable to the comparison, but not absurdly unrealistic), you've gained over 100% reaction time allotment. In most situations, you're gaining at least 20-30% by being on MNK. MP usage is largely irrelevant at this point in the game, which adds much more value to ability to stay alive longer unassisted.
The Part You Seem To Have Missed
-I've already stated BLU is a suitable substitute everywhere.
-I've already acknowledged that BLU has a variety of situations where it will be very useful.
-If HP has no weight, and you aren't a procwhore, you should be on a 2h DD.
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