Thief In VW
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2010-06-21
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Thief in VW
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 Leviathan.Brook
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By Leviathan.Brook 2011-12-25 16:43:30
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Can a troll do more dmg than any job in ffxi? Like the troll troll ? Halvang ones.






You guys are so into this lol so cereal.
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-25 16:46:03
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I don't think you understand what i'm saying...

I am in no way disputing that your damage output is terrific, what I said about Ukon war, Masa sam, thf, and my Amano was only pertaining to MY parse. Resolution/GS was not included because there wasn't a DRK in the alliance.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 16:48:04
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Ah, I knew there had to be an extra attack buff somewhere. 3k averages sounds a bit too high with just berserk/stalwarts, especially considering that you're using a WS with an attack penalty.

Yeah, like I said, I'm impressed. If I were to parse against you, I would definitely lose. If I were to parse against Aerison, or Macross, or Kei, or a number of other players I know, I would easily lose. If I was in your LS, one where practically everyone has multiple relics/emps, I'd feel rather marginalized.

Among the people in your LS, 4-5k/minute would be considered horrible damage, (and frankly, I doubt it'll be that much higher even with brd/cor buffs unless SE does something about the 50-60second timer), but among ordinary players, I'd still argue that it's still a good chuck of damage.
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-25 16:55:03
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Bismarck.Aerison said: »
No and no, this would be the case pre-shoha/resolution, but not any more. I take it you did not look at the parses that were on this page?

Your parse doesn't really tell me anything because I have absolutely no idea who is using what except that Ihina is THF.

And this still doesn't touch on my argument. MNK and WAR are still the top tier in DD. Of course you don't want to have your other DD's doing nothing when they aren't playing proc whack-a-mole, and I specifically said their damage can still be appreciable... but the only reason we're not rolling with anything besides MNK and WAR is because we need to in order to proc.

THF is *uniquely* worse than every other job in Voidwatch because there is another job that can proc Daggers who can also heal and do other ***to augment the rest of the party.

But anyone who thinks that THF/DNC are the only jobs brought primarily for proc'ing is delusional. No one would stop to ask "We have a SAM?" or "We have a DRK?" if it weren't for needing the DRK Magic, SAM JAs, GKT WS, Scythe/GS WS. If it weren't for procs, we'd just keep DD's to MNK and WAR only if we could.

Maybe that changes post Ukko/Smite nerf and parity is restored (for 2H onry). But as of right now, I don't see the new WS's elevating DRK or SAM anywhere near WAR or MNK such that you would bring either over an Ukko/Smite for pure DPS if given the choice.
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-25 17:00:52
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Bismarck.Aerison said: »
No and no, this would be the case pre-shoha/resolution, but not any more. I take it you did not look at the parses that were on this page?

Your parse doesn't really tell me anything because I have absolutely no idea who is using what except that Ihina is THF.

And this still doesn't touch on my argument. MNK and WAR are still the top tier in DD. Of course you don't want to have your other DD's doing nothing when they aren't playing proc whack-a-mole, and I specifically said their damage can still be appreciable... but the only reason we're not rolling with anything besides MNK and WAR is because we need to in order to proc.

THF is *uniquely* worse than every other job in Voidwatch because there is another job that can proc Daggers who can also heal and do other ***to augment the rest of the party.

But anyone who thinks that THF/DNC are the only jobs brought primarily for proc'ing is delusional. No one would stop to ask "We have a SAM?" or "We have a DRK?" if it weren't for needing the DRK Magic, SAM JAs, GKT WS, Scythe/GS WS. If it weren't for procs, we'd just keep DD's to MNK and WAR only if we could.

Maybe that changes post Ukko/Smite nerf and parity is restored (for 2H onry). But as of right now, I don't see the new WS's elevating DRK or SAM anywhere near WAR or MNK such that you would bring either over an Ukko/Smite for pure DPS if given the choice.

Well the top 4 in damage are the two sams war and thf, but I can see how you got confused as I didn't name them.

And i'm sorry you have shitty sams and drks?
[+]
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-25 17:02:49
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Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
Merry Christmas it's Qilin !
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

Two quick notes

1. The parse confirms my theory, at least in relation to Shosha, that the WS alone doesn't allow SAM to surpass the WARs. I don't know how you are passing them, but I would wager it is because your WARs are undergeared or unpracticed, at least compared to you. I don't understand how Ukko's is losing so bad when the nerf has not been implemented.

2. The DRG was in last place. lulz.
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-25 17:09:09
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Bismarck.Aerison said: »

Well the top 4 in damage are the two sams war and thf, but I can see how you got confused as I didn't name them.

And i'm sorry you have shitty sams and drks?

I'm guessing you are the WAR. So what I see is a THF being pretty much in line with the SAMs more or less. According to what you have said, Ihina beat them in 3/4 parses and the one in which Ihina was last wasn't a blowout and was within 2% of the lower SAM.

Given that you are arguing about how Shosha is game changing, I'm guessing that these parses include Shosha.

So I don't see how this conflicts at all with anything I've advocated. The rest of the DDs can put out good damage, and THF can perform decently in that respect as well. But the Ukko still blows everything else out of the water.

Generic's parse confirms what I'm saying, at least for SAM w/ Shosha. While he personally outparsed the WARs, but they still outparsed the SAM. And they absolutely slaughtered the DRG. So either DRK alone is the new top tier, or he's probably just the best in that group and was able to pull past Ukko's. Something I have never ruled out.
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-25 17:10:10
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
Merry Christmas it's Qilin !
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

Two quick notes

1. The parse confirms my theory, at least in relation to Shosha, that the WS alone doesn't allow SAM to surpass the WARs. I don't know how you are passing them, but I would wager it is because your WARs are undergeared or unpracticed, at least compared to you. I don't understand how Ukko's is losing so bad when the nerf has not been implemented.

2. The DRG was in last place. lulz.
btw the WAR's used MS in this parse. It was a straight zerg and we didn't care about lights. So for the SAM to even come close to a WAR using MT for 4k average and Upheaval for 4k + some Ukko's I think the SAM did more than enough to show it is a top tier DD
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-25 17:12:12
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Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

Sorry should have posted the whole parse, not just a SS, forgot about the code BBcode. I can speak for at least the war that placed top 4, that he does know what he is doing and has good gear. How sam pulls ahead is:

1. The introduction to Shoha
and
2. The amount of WS I am able to get off during the zerg. (15 shoha's to 9 Ukko's)

fyi I am the SAM, I don't own a Ukon!
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 17:14:23
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I'll repost it.

Quote:
For some context, Durandel, Eburo and Legendhealerr were all Ukko WARs. Rino was a Masa SAM, Luftig a Kannagi NIN, Funstealer a Gandiva RNG. I think Tylerderdin was a DRG.

Anyways, looking at their post and from what I remember of my last set of Qilin, Aerison's SAM should be a stronger. His certainly hits harder, and his WS frequency was far above everyone else who was in my group, so I don't think you should use Generic's parse to show what SAM can do.

Man, I wish I saved my parses now.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 17:21:04
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I just noticed, but that parse you put up is only the 4th fight, right? Do you have the first three fights saved somewhere?
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-25 17:24:06
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Bismarck.Ihina said: »
I just noticed, but that parse you put up is only the 4th fight, right? Do you have the first three fights saved somewhere?

....No, I selected begin default parse every time without saving...

I do remember you placing second in two of the parses, first (I died...) in one, and the last parse I've posted.

Only saved this one to be spiteful and rub it in Legendhealerr's face.
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-25 17:28:27
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Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Anyways, looking at their post and from what I remember of my last set of Qilin, Aerison's SAM should be a stronger. His certainly hits harder, and his WS frequency was far above everyone else who was in my group, so I don't think you should use Generic's parse to show what SAM can do.

Generic is using his parse to argue that SAM and DRK are competitive with WAR, but that THF would never be in that range. Aerison is using his parse to show the same thing regarding SAM, but to also say that THF's contributions are appreciable.

If we believe that Aerison is better than Teilo (the SAM in Generic's parse), we could extrapolate that since you could keep up with Aerison, you should definitely be able to keep up with Teilo. Which through substitution means THF is also a top flight contributor.

That is something Generic will no doubt throw generic DRK emofits over.

So what have we learned? Parsing is great for comparing players and figuring out math via raw data, but once you get into comparing parses there will always be discrepancies because we're not parsing in the exact same conditions against the same people.

I'll admit the new WS are more impressive than what I once thought, but I easily topped Qilin parse myself last night on WAR. The other top performers were another Ukon WAR, Vere MNK, and a Calad DRK. The SAM and DRG we had were well below. And I wasn't the one parsing so I don't have it (back home for X-mas, so on a laptop and can't parse), but I'll try see if I can get it.

Also bear in mind that while Mighty Strikes is certainly one of the most useful 2-hour's, Meikyo Shisui is also one of the better 2-hours for zerging -- especially in Voidwatch with how much it increases your WS frequency by tripling the effect of each Dusty Wing.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 17:28:34
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Yeah I do that too, which makes saving parses annoying since they build up fast.

You should go zerg something with Keityan's SAM and send me the parse.
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-25 17:30:42
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Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Yeah I do that too, which makes saving parses annoying since they build up fast.

You should go zerg something with Keityan's SAM and send me the parse.

I have, pre Shoha, and Keityan's parsed greater. This was with Kaitens
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2011-12-25 17:31:21
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Keityan's SAM is impressive.
[+]
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 17:35:38
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In actuality though, I won't be able to keep up with Aerison's SAM. The difference will be greater as we get more buffs.
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-25 17:49:32
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Anyways, looking at their post and from what I remember of my last set of Qilin, Aerison's SAM should be a stronger. His certainly hits harder, and his WS frequency was far above everyone else who was in my group, so I don't think you should use Generic's parse to show what SAM can do.

Generic is using his parse to argue that SAM and DRK are competitive with WAR, but that THF would never be in that range. Aerison is using his parse to show the same thing regarding SAM, but to also say that THF's contributions are appreciable.

If we believe that Aerison is better than Teilo (the SAM in Generic's parse), we could extrapolate that since you could keep up with Aerison, you should definitely be able to keep up with Teilo. Which through substitution means THF is also a top flight contributor.

That is something Generic will no doubt throw generic DRK emofits.

So what have we learned? Parsing is great for comparing players and figuring out math via raw data, but once you get into comparing parses there will always be discrepancies because we're not parsing in the exact same conditions against the same people.

I'll admit the new WS are more impressive than what I once thought, but I easily topped Qilin parse myself last night on WAR. The other top performers were another Ukon WAR, Vere MNK, and a Calad DRK. The SAM and DRG we had were well below. And I wasn't the one parsing so I don't have it (back home for X-mas, so on a laptop and can't parse), but I'll try see if I can get it.

Also bear in mind that while Mighty Strikes is certainly one of the most useful 2-hour's, Meikyo Shisui is also one of the better 2-hours for zerging -- especially in Voidwatch with how much it increases your WS frequency by tripling the effect of each Dusty Wing.
So let me get emo and stuff etc
First MS. If you look at your parse it show's Ukko's Fury (which is what a Ukon WAR spams no?) is doing around:
Code 
Legendhealerr               22923          0     22923    74.23 %       9/0   100.00 %   1989/3187  2547.00
 - Ukko's Fury              22923          0     22923   100.00 %       9/0   100.00 %   1989/3187  2547.00
Durandel                     8420          0      8420    62.58 %       5/0   100.00 %    911/2156  1684.00
 - King's Justice             911          0       911    10.82 %       1/0   100.00 %     911/911   911.00
 - Ukko's Fury               7509          0      7509    89.18 %       4/0   100.00 %   1614/2156  1877.25
Eburo                       11978          0     11978    77.42 %       8/0   100.00 %    295/2050  1497.25
 - Shield Break               295          0       295     2.46 %       1/0   100.00 %     295/295   295.00
 - Ukko's Fury              11683          0     11683    97.54 %       7/0   100.00 %   1199/2050  1669.00

So giving you the benifit of the doubt and say 2.5k average Ukko's let's look at a WAR WSing with MS up:
Code 
Kyler                       24615          0     24615    73.27 %       8/0   100.00 %    734/4824  3076.88
 - Metatron Torment         19924          0     19924    80.94 %       5/0   100.00 %   2807/4824  3984.80
 - Raging Rush               4691          0      4691    19.06 %       3/0   100.00 %    734/2320  1563.67
Mitosis                      3848          0      3848    13.61 %       1/0   100.00 %   3848/3848  3848.00
 - Upheaval                  3848          0      3848   100.00 %       1/0   100.00 %   3848/3848  3848.00

With MS up that's an extra 1.5k per WS and MS also doesn't prevent the use of you using your temp items. Meikyo Shisui is almost useless in VW due to the fact that you should almost always be WSing with temps/atmacites (Save TP/Regain/etc) As far as Teilo's SAM being worse I can't say because I don't know Aerison's SAM, how he plays or is geared. However 2.1k Shoha's is barely below a THF's Stacked MS/RS. THF is no where near SAM as far as DD's go. The only reason Teilo parsed about the same amount of dmg as Ihina is because my parsed Qilin was killed faster than Aerison's Qilin was and there was less dmg that was possible to be dealt by Teilo. Get off the thought that THF is even considered a DD because it's not
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 17:57:37
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With RCB/berserk/stalwarts up, Mercy should be doing 2.2-2.5k stacked without triple attack proc. A single triple attack proc should push it to 3-3.2k. Double triple proc should push it to 3.7k+. On the parse, I'm averaging 2.7k Mercys.

You're right if you're comparing me to you, but at least admit that not everyone plays at your level.

Hell, these days, I'll be lucky to find a WHM who knows how to keep people alive, nevermind keep them hasted/boost'ed.
[+]
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2011-12-25 18:14:51
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"What, I AFK'd for 5 mins to fap, why is everyone dead?"
[+]
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-25 18:39:31
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Sunday night game man!
 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2011-12-25 20:10:18
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Parses don't really prove what the better jobs are, just who the better players are.
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-26 20:03:54
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Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
With MS up that's an extra 1.5k per WS and MS also doesn't prevent the use of you using your temp items.

You are using data deceptively.

That increase is because you are forcing crits on WS's that normally cannot crit, which is a large increase in damage. Ukko's won't gain that much from Mighty Strikes because it already crits naturally. It will guarantee your Ukko's are steadily near the ceiling of your range, but it won't increase that ceiling. It will increase the ceiling of Metatron though.

Quote:
Meikyo Shisui is almost useless in VW due to the fact that you should almost always be WSing with temps/atmacites (Save TP/Regain/etc)

Reducing every WS to 100TP triples the effect of every Dusty wing. The fact that temps are being recharged so fast only multiplies the extra amount of WSs Meikyo Shisui generates and contributes to SAM's high WS frequency.

Quote:
As far as Teilo's SAM being worse I can't say because I don't know Aerison's SAM, how he plays or is geared. However 2.1k Shoha's is barely below a THF's Stacked MS/RS. THF is no where near SAM as far as DD's go. The only reason Teilo parsed about the same amount of dmg as Ihina is because my parsed Qilin was killed faster than Aerison's Qilin was and there was less dmg that was possible to be dealt by Teilo.

My comparison was not based off flat numbers. That would be stupid because, as you pointed out, there were different strategies with different buffs and numbers of DDs.

I made my argument based on relativity using your own logic.

Your argument is SAM is a top flight DD because it did relatively well when parsing with Ukko WARs.

That same logic should mean THF is a top flight DD because Ihina stayed competitive with what we can assume to be a top flight SAM (which you consider a top DD) and two Ukko WARs (which we both say is a top DD).

Quote:
Get off the thought that THF is even considered a DD because it's not

And stop thinking DRK will ever live up to WAR, because it won't?

Blind 2H trololololing at the point it's lolTHF but God forbid we go lolDRG
 Sylph.Decimus
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By Sylph.Decimus 2011-12-26 20:09:57
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Quote:
And stop thinking DRK will ever live up to WAR, because it won't?

trolololol?

Wait until the next update, War won't even live up to War.
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-26 20:58:31
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Gredival, I'm sorry but are you stupid ? Let me respond to each one of your "points" that you have up there. First, idk if you have noticed but they introduced a new non-crit GA WS called upheaval which when using MS is forced crit (I know amazing) when we do look at that parse it seems Mitosis (A Ukon WAR) uses Upheaval and not Ukko's during MS (Such a shock I know).

Quote:
Reducing every WS to 100TP triples the effect of every Dusty wing. The fact that temps are being recharged so fast only multiplies the extra amount of WSs Meikyo Shisui generates and contributes to SAM's high WS frequency.
DD job (Coercion/Discipline)+ COR (Miser's/Tactitian's). That DD should be WSing once after every swing. Seeing as how every VW party has a COR this isn't inconcievable. This DD will also be popping Dusty wings whenever available and should have around the same number of WS' as the SAM using his 2hr. WS freq. is so ridiculous in VW that just Meikyo Shisui will barely pull your WS' ratio ahead. MS is the better 2hr by a long shot.

I still don't see where you are getting this THF thing :/ They have no place in VW. Maybe in other events they will but I'm ok with not having Dancing Edge and Shark bite. Having a "DD" wait for a JA timer for it to do decent dmg is just not what VW is about. I could see a use if it was a drawn out fight where the THF was needed for TH and could TAMS the Tank but no this isn't that kind of fight. Show me a parse of a good THF keeping up with DD's in a true zerg and not in one where the DD's had to turn or "hold dmg".

And with all that being said and you finishing up talking ***on DRK I leave you with this. Please try to keep up WAR :/ it's only a matter of time before you get nerfed ; ;
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
 Sylph.Erentis
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By Sylph.Erentis 2011-12-26 21:49:23
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Another thing, have lost a VW fight bc of thf. explain
After some HQ proc we get only 2 hint one was Darkness magic ( impossible to land when the nm is immune to drk element magic) second was JA rng : Bounty shot can't land if there already an high treasur hunter on. So for me thfs is a good DD bla bla like all say but sometime ( in only one situation actually lol) it make the fight lost.
Its just to say something different then all in each post.
Have a nice game guys!
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-26 22:01:20
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That's something I've come across too while doing vwnm. We didn't lose, but it definitely sounds like an oversight on SE's part.
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-26 22:51:20
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Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
First, idk if you have noticed but they introduced a new non-crit GA WS called upheaval which when using MS is forced crit (I know amazing) when we do look at that parse it seems Mitosis (A Ukon WAR) uses Upheaval and not Ukko's during MS (Such a shock I know).

1. Losing out on ODD. You talk about how Rag is good for crit rate and how DOT matters, now you want to focus exclusively on WS.
2. And that just makes the gap between SAM and WAR even wider, which is my argument?

Quote:
DD job (Coercion/Discipline)+ COR (Miser's/Tactitian's). That DD should be WSing once after every swing. Seeing as how every VW party has a COR this isn't inconcievable. This DD will also be popping Dusty wings whenever available and should have around the same number of WS' as the SAM using his 2hr. WS freq. is so ridiculous in VW that just Meikyo Shisui will barely pull your WS' ratio ahead. MS is the better 2hr by a long shot.

Not saying Mighty Strikes is not useful, but you act as if the fact the SAM came behind the WARs in your parse can be explained away with Mighty Strikes.

It can't, and even if it could, the fact WAR has one of the best 2hrs is part of the reason it's top flight DD. That's like saying we should dismiss the value of Souleater+BW zergs when evaluating DRK.

Quote:
I still don't see where you are getting this THF thing :/ They have no place in VW.

If you had critical reading more acute than that of a boulder, or a memory superior to that of a gnat, I've repeatedly maintained THF is poor in VW.

However my point was 1) that this is the result of it's DMG being subpar compared to WAR and MNK, and not having unique procs when you consider DNC's ability to use the same weapons and also heal/buff/debuff, and 2) other jobs are also sub-optimal in damage but unlike THF have enough unique staggers that people bring them.

Now at this point you basically argued that any DD job was fine but THF wasn't DD. Thus why we are debating SAM damage and what Ihina's parses mean in light of that.

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I could see a use if it was a drawn out fight where the THF was needed for TH and could TAMS the Tank but no this isn't that kind of fight.

My point is THF is a DD. I don't bring THF to Voidwatch. But the job is still a DD. Not a support. Not a TH mule. Not a soloer.

And just like any other DD, there are events where it shines and events where it sucks. Voidwatch is a suck situation. And in general it is in desperate need of buffs.

THF is suboptimal in terms of raw dmg output, but so is every other job besides WAR and MNK. I find it incredibly dumb and hypocritical for all these jobs who were also never considered legitimate DDs until the 2H patch, and who are also not top flight, to be turning around and saying THF isn't a DD because they whined their way into new dmg formulas.

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Show me a parse of a good THF keeping up with DD's in a true zerg and not in one where the DD's had to turn or "hold dmg".

So the test is doing well in a zerg situation, but we shouldn't discount SAM because it does poorly in a zerg comparative to WAR?

You'll make all the arguments in the world to compensate for your SAM's performance relative to WARs, but all the arguments to dismiss Ihina's performance against a SAM who by all accounts is well-geared and skilled.

Hypocrisy much?

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it's only a matter of time before you get nerfed ; ;

You think I care? I'm in favor of the Ukko's changes. I think balance is good, whether or not it nerfs a job I personally play.

I didn't level it to be broken, I only leveled WAR because I figured it was a safe bet since it's SE's golden child.

I speak as someone who plays one job you consider yourself superior to, but who also plays a job most consider superior to yours. And what I'm saying is to know your place.

THF's dmg is not optimal, but neither is yours. If all we wanted was optimal dmg, we would take only Ukko and V.Smite. No one stops to ask "Hey do we have enough DRKs/SAMs?" because your dmg is invaluable. Your dmg is replaceable and outdo-able by WARs and MNKs. You get to come to Voidwatch because you also have procs. THF doesn't. THAT is the difference between the jobs and that is why THF sucks in Voidwatch.
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 Sylph.Krsone
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By Sylph.Krsone 2011-12-26 22:56:58
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 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-26 22:59:23
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
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If all we wanted was optimal dmg, we would take only Ukko and V.Smite. No one stops to ask "Hey do we have enough DRKs/SAMs?" because your dmg is invaluable. Your dmg is replaceable and outdo-able by WARs and MNKs. You get to come to Voidwatch because you also have procs. THF doesn't.

THAT is the difference between the jobs and that is why THF sucks in Voidwatch.

I disagree.
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