Through some testing I read through the crit rate on Drakesbane is actually possibly lower.
Thinking 5% from the stuff I read on some testing that was done in 09.
On harder content it becomes more and more difficult to actually benefit from that 20% DDex Crit.
Which will leave a big window for something like Stardiver to win out, since it'll naturally have more STR, and ATK to go with it and each of it's hits.
Would also be kinda nice to know the fTP boost at 200% and 300% TP Bonus.
Stardiver Testing
Stardiver Testing
No, I was assuming floored crit rate (5% base (or "DDex", if you like), +5% from merits, +5% from rancor collar +10% from WS = 25%.)
If the WS is only =5%, that gives you a floored crit rate of 20%, although on VW stuff there's some unknown crit rate from Champion's tonic.
If the WS is only =5%, that gives you a floored crit rate of 20%, although on VW stuff there's some unknown crit rate from Champion's tonic.
I wonder if it's similar to that of Hydra Tiara which is 7-10% Critical Hit Rate, but even then do you think that in a situation like that Drakes would still win out? Mind you that's 20% for one crit, not accounting the other 3 which have even a lesser chance to crit.
Even lesser of a chance at scoring 4/4 Crit, or even 3/4.
Even lesser of a chance at scoring 4/4 Crit, or even 3/4.
On something like Qilin? Yeah
And I'm just talking averages.
Assume you have a .8 pDIF after level correction, with a 1.8 from crits. Assuming you have a 25% crit rate that means an average pDIF of 1.05 for Drakesbane. (.75*.8+.25*1.8)
Assuming 180 STR for drakes, and let's say 190 for Stardiver, and 150 D+fSTR. WSC is 76 for drakes, 161 for Star.
so (150+76)*4*1.05 = 949.
(150+161)*3.75*.8 = 933.
So in this particular scenario, Drakes still wins. If pDIF were higher (mob had lower defense/was lower level), Star gets better by comparison, if you have a higher crit rate (champion's tonic, the lower critical hit evasion from star is on XD) then drakes is relatively better.
My Drakes average about 1100-1150 on Qilin, but I use a defense down polearm so that's going to push my cRatio maybe half the time or better. I may have more than a 25% crit rate on him though, I should parse that.
Edit: small sample size (25/103), but melee crit rate was 25% on him. WS crit rate should be at least that on average, maybe 35%.
Ratio of average crit damage to average non-crit damage was 2.16:1, which gives about ~.85 pDIF. I WS in 9% DA, so that's a 4.5% damage increase (can only DA on half the hits).
Working the math with a 35% drakesbane crit rate, a .85 pDIF, and including DA gives me almost exactly the right average damage. (1133 calculated, 1167 parsed)
So, Star under those conditions: 1035 average expected damage, lower than my drakes.
I may go try to Stardiver him a few times on the test server.
And I'm just talking averages.
Assume you have a .8 pDIF after level correction, with a 1.8 from crits. Assuming you have a 25% crit rate that means an average pDIF of 1.05 for Drakesbane. (.75*.8+.25*1.8)
Assuming 180 STR for drakes, and let's say 190 for Stardiver, and 150 D+fSTR. WSC is 76 for drakes, 161 for Star.
so (150+76)*4*1.05 = 949.
(150+161)*3.75*.8 = 933.
So in this particular scenario, Drakes still wins. If pDIF were higher (mob had lower defense/was lower level), Star gets better by comparison, if you have a higher crit rate (champion's tonic, the lower critical hit evasion from star is on XD) then drakes is relatively better.
My Drakes average about 1100-1150 on Qilin, but I use a defense down polearm so that's going to push my cRatio maybe half the time or better. I may have more than a 25% crit rate on him though, I should parse that.
Edit: small sample size (25/103), but melee crit rate was 25% on him. WS crit rate should be at least that on average, maybe 35%.
Ratio of average crit damage to average non-crit damage was 2.16:1, which gives about ~.85 pDIF. I WS in 9% DA, so that's a 4.5% damage increase (can only DA on half the hits).
Working the math with a 35% drakesbane crit rate, a .85 pDIF, and including DA gives me almost exactly the right average damage. (1133 calculated, 1167 parsed)
So, Star under those conditions: 1035 average expected damage, lower than my drakes.
I may go try to Stardiver him a few times on the test server.
Okay I see what you're saying.
By the way, that 3.75 on Stardiver, how do you figure?
By the way, that 3.75 on Stardiver, how do you figure?
first hit is .75, I'm assuming each of the following 3 are 1.0.
fTP only applies to the first hit. All following hits are 1.0.
That's how it worked for pre-2H Update Penta Thrust, iirc.
That's how it worked for pre-2H Update Penta Thrust, iirc.
Depensing on duration might be good to open fights with this since it buffs everyone's crit chance, the equivalent of raising everyone's crit% by X%. Might stack with that new Step too
Oh alright I see that now.
So with Gorget's it would push it up to 3.9444
Would this be ideal for this type of WS, or would we consider something else like a STR Torque and Beir Belt +1?
When I swapped over to Lancer's + Pipilaka Belt, my damage went down a lot... it also hurt the average pretty badly.
Since this is a low fTP ws. Doesn't that imply that additional fTP would benefit more?
So with Gorget's it would push it up to 3.9444
Would this be ideal for this type of WS, or would we consider something else like a STR Torque and Beir Belt +1?
When I swapped over to Lancer's + Pipilaka Belt, my damage went down a lot... it also hurt the average pretty badly.
Since this is a low fTP ws. Doesn't that imply that additional fTP would benefit more?
Gorget would push it to 3.85. The boost isn't all that large, tbh. I'd assume a STR neck, depending on the size of the STR Mod would most likely overcome it.
Adding .2 fTP is a ~5% increase in damage.
I assume you were inside abyssea with STR atma? So figure something like 300? STR, to which you added 11.
Assuming D+fSTR~150, then you had the damage term of 405 without the belt, and 414 with it. That's only a 2.2% increase. So yeah, gorget/belt should be better inside abyssea.
Outside you're looking at say, 298 vs 308, or a 3.3% increase, so belt/gorget would still win outside.
Though the 4 str 15 attack neck would be better, as would a beir+1 for belt. They still might not win though.
I assume you were inside abyssea with STR atma? So figure something like 300? STR, to which you added 11.
Assuming D+fSTR~150, then you had the damage term of 405 without the belt, and 414 with it. That's only a 2.2% increase. So yeah, gorget/belt should be better inside abyssea.
Outside you're looking at say, 298 vs 308, or a 3.3% increase, so belt/gorget would still win outside.
Though the 4 str 15 attack neck would be better, as would a beir+1 for belt. They still might not win though.
Outside of Abyssea Parse! Compare and Contrast test vs 3 WS's
Target: Groundskeeper - Blue Wall Only - Despot Also!
So by this sample... Stardiver wins slightly.
This is the parse on Despot.
Could of just been bad luck on crits perhaps?
This is TP Gear - Claymore Grip, Merits.
I WS in Claymore/Rancor/Light Earring as well for the Crit Rate.
TP Gear Dex: 86+27
WS Gear Dex: 86+44
In anycase, with the look at the new gear coming out soon. It looks promising. I'm personally quite excited about the Weaponskill. Hope to see some decent numbers off of Voidwatch, and other such endgame related content.
Target: Groundskeeper - Blue Wall Only - Despot Also!
Code
- Drakesbane 84797 0 84797 53.09 % 32/0 100.00 % 1700/3497 2649.91 - Geirskogul 74940 0 74940 46.91 % 35/5 87.50 % 658/2920 2141.14 - Stardiver 86672 0 86672 71.75 % 32/0 100.00 % 2013/3794 2795.87
So by this sample... Stardiver wins slightly.
This is the parse on Despot.
Code
- Drakesbane 2524 0 2524 100.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 2524/2524 2524.00 - Stardiver 5326 0 5326 84.13 % 2/0 100.00 % 2433/2893 2663.00
Could of just been bad luck on crits perhaps?
Code
Melee Crit Damage Player #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit% Amador 76 471/1138 595.01 19.69 % Oscar 15 216/230 221.40 4.25 %
This is TP Gear - Claymore Grip, Merits.
I WS in Claymore/Rancor/Light Earring as well for the Crit Rate.
TP Gear Dex: 86+27
WS Gear Dex: 86+44
In anycase, with the look at the new gear coming out soon. It looks promising. I'm personally quite excited about the Weaponskill. Hope to see some decent numbers off of Voidwatch, and other such endgame related content.
I'm actually surprised Stardiver isn't winning by more.
Despot is low level content, your pDif should be well above 1, so I would have expected Star to do way more, rather than just winning by 5% or so.
I'll Stardiver Qilin or Kaggen a bunch this weekend to see how that does.
Despot is low level content, your pDif should be well above 1, so I would have expected Star to do way more, rather than just winning by 5% or so.
I'll Stardiver Qilin or Kaggen a bunch this weekend to see how that does.
To be honest the numbers seemed a little off, probably just due to rate of double attacks in ws's maybe.
However, in the past @95 I have scored much much much higher damaging Drakes on Despot. Ranging at 3.9 - 4.1k so I don't know honestly. I'll try to snag a few more from time to time when I can, but overall the entire test on Drakesbane left me kind of curious as to why the big difference now.
I'll see what I can come up with on my end.
However, in the past @95 I have scored much much much higher damaging Drakes on Despot. Ranging at 3.9 - 4.1k so I don't know honestly. I'll try to snag a few more from time to time when I can, but overall the entire test on Drakesbane left me kind of curious as to why the big difference now.
I'll see what I can come up with on my end.
Ugh. I just tested Stardiver on the test server using Mighty Strikes.
It's .75 fTP across all 4 hits, not 1.0 on the 3 after the first.
It's garbage except *maybe* as sekkanoki fodder for the skillchain or at the start of a zerg.
As a slight silver lining, gorgets/belts do apply their fTP boost across all hits.
If you do end up using it, that means they beat everything you could possibly put in those slots.
It's .75 fTP across all 4 hits, not 1.0 on the 3 after the first.
It's garbage except *maybe* as sekkanoki fodder for the skillchain or at the start of a zerg.
As a slight silver lining, gorgets/belts do apply their fTP boost across all hits.
If you do end up using it, that means they beat everything you could possibly put in those slots.
Indeed, I noticed a very big damage increase as soon as I swapped out of Lancer's Torque and Pipilaka to Soil Gorget/Soil Belt. The damage was a little too much and I thought it was super weird.
is the ftp bonus(from gorget/belts) across all hits just on newer WS? or is the old "only applies to first hit" a long overdue misconception?
The fTP from Gorget and Belts do infact go for all hits of the WS. (Unsure if this applies to double/triple attacks)
It isn't a overdue misconception because this is the first time we've run into something like this when it comes to damage formulas for a specific WS.
These new ws, seem to have this trend however. Not just on Stardiver, but some others as well. Of course there are always the pretty butterflies that are just made special, and some of these WS do infact have 2.0 fTP which is looking as if they are 2.0 across the board. Which is amazing for those WS's, but for Stardiver, it sucks.
It isn't a overdue misconception because this is the first time we've run into something like this when it comes to damage formulas for a specific WS.
These new ws, seem to have this trend however. Not just on Stardiver, but some others as well. Of course there are always the pretty butterflies that are just made special, and some of these WS do infact have 2.0 fTP which is looking as if they are 2.0 across the board. Which is amazing for those WS's, but for Stardiver, it sucks.
sry for the question, just always assumed it didn't affects additional hits form multi hit ws as that is what was always being said, but now i keep hearing it affects all the newer WS, at least as far as gorget and belts go.
not all new WS, GK doesn't get that, but seems to have ratio bonus similar to g/k/y.
Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn said: »
is the ftp bonus(from gorget/belts) across all hits just on newer WS? or is the old "only applies to first hit" a long overdue misconception?
[+]
Well, nothing left to test on this thing at this time. The end result can be found here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17719-dev1049-Stardiver-Polearm-WS?p=237271#post237271
If you really want to use this WS, regardless of it being changed or not.
Get a TP Bonus Earring.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17719-dev1049-Stardiver-Polearm-WS?p=237271#post237271
If you really want to use this WS, regardless of it being changed or not.
Get a TP Bonus Earring.
So would no one recommend this WS if you're a DRG main? It was doing ~5k with 4/5, atk drink and VV/RR/Slashing Sunder in abyssea. I know Drakes would obviously be a better choice in abyssea (as with all crit WSs), but Skydiver wouldn't be a better choice in Voidwatch?
(Havn't done 5/5 yet. I have it, just I got on blu to get that up to 99. Burning 130 merits drains so much outta ya @@ Might as well just get every thing else to 99)
(Havn't done 5/5 yet. I have it, just I got on blu to get that up to 99. Burning 130 merits drains so much outta ya @@ Might as well just get every thing else to 99)
i am unsure myself but given that drakesbane has been said to have a pretty substantial atk penalty of -20% im am not ready to rule this WS out till someone with more mathy background can say otherwise.
I got 5/5 last night but fell asleep before i got to use it. 4/5 i did get to use and was pretty upset with it. highest was like 3.5k on treants in A-Altepa. RR/apoc/VV atmas. Lets hope that 5/5 makes it worth it. Either way it will still have its uses, but being on last stage of Gungnir i was hoping for something to push Drg up the ranks.
Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn said: »
i am unsure myself but given that drakesbane has been said to have a pretty substantial atk penalty of -20% im am not ready to rule this WS out till someone with more mathy background can say otherwise.
[+]
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn said: »
i am unsure myself but given that drakesbane has been said to have a pretty substantial atk penalty of -20% im am not ready to rule this WS out till someone with more mathy background can say otherwise.
their post came before people found the 20% atk penalty on drakes
Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn said: »
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Brayenn said: »
i am unsure myself but given that drakesbane has been said to have a pretty substantial atk penalty of -20% im am not ready to rule this WS out till someone with more mathy background can say otherwise.
their post came before people found the 20% atk penalty on drakes
Whoa what when?
not long ago was found to have an atk penalty of about 20%atk, this is why i made the post that i did, been trying to get more accurate determination but drg seems like such a forgotten job by most lol hard to get a reply on the matter.
All FFXI content and images © 2002-2024 SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. FINAL
FANTASY is a registered trademark of Square Enix Co., Ltd.