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Occupy Wall Street Protests
 Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-11 20:30:04
Quote: I do agree that a good deal of that should be factored, but AGAIN it's not as black and white as you keep on asserting.
l2read.
I've already conceded to the fact that what you say must be considered but not JUST that, but anyway. done with this since you only pay attention to the parts that disagree with you and hit only on that.
not like me being reasonable will change the way you see things.
this is a big world and full of a lot of different people. just because "it might be a good idea" doesn't mean that you can't be successful without it. not saying that it isn't good and didn't say that it wasn't good to better your education or go through a tradeschool, just that it's not the only way.
but you are free to ignore what you want and just imply things when i say the world is full of many DIFFERENT perceptions and isn't as black and white as being "certified" in EVERY case. I would urge you to take your own advice as you evidently ignored the times that I have agreed that you can be successful without a degree just as I have said a degree does not guarantee you success. Also, I never said it happened in "EVERY case" as you put it. Nor did I say all people are turned away for the same reason. In fact I provided other reasons that they may be turned away that had nothing to do with possessing a degree. Take your own advice before laying it out on others. whatever you have to say to make yourself seem right brother. :D Lol I thought you were done? Guess not...
サーバ: Leviathan
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Posts: 456
By Leviathan.Alkalinejoe 2011-11-15 04:09:28
Police are now evacuating the protesters in NYC. Apparently they gave them an hour to pack their things before the evacuation. Anything they didn't pack is currently being tossed in the trash. They have set up a blockade and have banned the press from entering. They have also banned any non government aircraft from flying in the airspace above the protests (blocking any press helicopters). Not to mention they ave blocked 2g/3g and telephone services from the area. All of this started at 1am. They are really trying to get away with this quickly and quietly.
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Odin.Liela
サーバ: Odin
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By Odin.Liela 2011-11-15 11:17:50
It makes me crabby that they are blocking news reporters. What in the devil is wrong with these people that they can't stand cameras or video recorders through all this? It's not even that I'd watch the news if it was up. I never watch the news. It's just that I feel like they are doing something they are ashamed of if they can't even let people see it.
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サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-11-15 12:27:51
This is America...!
Ignoring the protesters demands to do something about corporate greed is treated like a circus sideshow, it's common knowledge that getting lobbyists out of our capital isn't going to happen and we send in the cops to quash the voice of overall peaceful protests by the American people. We're sure taking tips from the Gaddafi rulebook of leadership from what I see. Out with those cameras!
We can also go into sidebar about what constitutes free speech, peaceful assembly and all that jazz. All the laughable rules that people bring up regarding 9-5 protesting, hygiene and undesirables is well and nice but it's all distraction from the true problems at hand and why would it be anything different? The true problem is a challenge no one wants to tackle so we fight, fight, fight over the molehills and miss the mountain every single time.
(Maybe they should have occupied Central Park so everyone could bathe but then I suppose the news media would be bringing in wildlife experts claiming bathing in the lakes causes animals to suffer and disease to spread. Oh noes, someone drowned! It's all the dirty little hippies fault~)
This wasn't Oakland where things got violent and people using their 1st amendment rights apparently was too much for Bloomberg. Are we surprised here? This is the same guy that was arrogant enough to overturn term limits and then close up the loophole after the fact.
Fenrir.Schutz
サーバ: Fenrir
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Posts: 3122
By Fenrir.Schutz 2011-11-15 12:47:10
I can see the city managers' points-of-view on this. A lot of these situations with the Occupy movements end up either in lawlessness (murders/sexual assaults/robberies) occurring in the camps or alternatively drawing police presence away from other areas of the city to patrol these zones...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45258539
...while that is the case of the city's need to prioritise their security and patrol issues, the long-term/open-ended nature of these protests worry those in charge of more criminal activity. The choice is sadly then either reactive policing (responding to crimes occurring at the camps) or pro-active policing (shutting down the camps in the first place, technically in violation of rights to peaceable assembly.)
So while I agree it is stifling citizens that have a right to do what they are allowed, the Occupy organisers are certainly not doing enough to protect and provide security at these events...forcing the local government to do something about it (much like how police are allowed to shut down concerts or other events if things get too unruly and beyond the ability for them to exert control for public safety.)
While for sure this was warranted in Oakland CA, I would hope the city managers would take an even-handed view of their own city's Occupy movement situation before acting. :/
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-15 13:23:56
I can see the city managers' points-of-view on this. A lot of these situations with the Occupy movements end up either in lawlessness (murders/sexual assaults/robberies) occurring in the camps or alternatively drawing police presence away from other areas of the city to patrol these zones... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45258539 ...while that is the case of the city's need to prioritise their security and patrol issues, the long-term/open-ended nature of these protests worry those in charge of more criminal activity. The choice is sadly then either reactive policing (responding to crimes occurring at the camps) or pro-active policing (shutting down the camps in the first place, technically in violation of rights to peaceable assembly.) So while I agree it is stifling citizens that have a right to do what they are allowed, the Occupy organisers are certainly not doing enough to protect and provide security at these events...forcing the local government to do something about it (much like how police are allowed to shut down concerts or other events if things get too unruly and beyond the ability for them to exert control for public safety.) While for sure this was warranted in Oakland CA, I would hope the city managers would take an even-handed view of their own city's Occupy movement situation before acting. :/ I would venture to say that most of the work police do is reactive as opposed to proactive. My main issue with how this situation has been handled is that there has been no cooperation from city managers and police to work with the protestors to make the environment safer. It actually seems like they have done nothing but condemn them and try to get them to leave. I could see why they want them gone as its costing the city more money to post officers near the sites all the time (a lot of good that has done). Its almost like the officers are there to prevent them from spilling out but not cnocerned with what actually goes on inside that is until it is used to get them to leave.
It just seems like any excuse they can find to get them to leave they have tried except for sitting down and working with them or even hearing them out. I think some discussion could have gone a long way in helping to deal with this situation. Instead the city managers and such seem to try and demonize and get them to go from the beginning.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
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Posts: 6386
By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-11-15 13:33:03
Leviathan.Alkalinejoe said: »Police are now evacuating the protesters in NYC. Apparently they gave them an hour to pack their things before the evacuation. Anything they didn't pack is currently being tossed in the trash. They have set up a blockade and have banned the press from entering. They have also banned any non government aircraft from flying in the airspace above the protests (blocking any press helicopters). Not to mention they ave blocked 2g/3g and telephone services from the area. All of this started at 1am. They are really trying to get away with this quickly and quietly.
Hey look, they're being silenced. That's totally gonna go over awesome.
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サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-11-15 16:08:29
I would venture to say that most of the work police do is reactive as opposed to proactive. My main issue with how this situation has been handled is that there has been no cooperation from city managers and police to work with the protestors to make the environment safer. It actually seems like they have done nothing but condemn them and try to get them to leave. I could see why they want them gone as its costing the city more money to post officers near the sites all the time (a lot of good that has done). Its almost like the officers are there to prevent them from spilling out but not cnocerned with what actually goes on inside that is until it is used to get them to leave.
It just seems like any excuse they can find to get them to leave they have tried except for sitting down and working with them or even hearing them out. I think some discussion could have gone a long way in helping to deal with this situation. Instead the city managers and such seem to try and demonize and get them to go from the beginning.
Top leadership sees this as nothing more than a protracted distraction. Originally they believed that this would burn itself out but now it's been almost 2 months the powers that be are itching to get rid of this eyesore so they can go back to milking wage slaves and ignoring inherent problems with our system of governance. Why would they bother assisting people they secretly loathe? Further, why change something when it is beneficial to you.
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サーバ: Fenrir
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Posts: 354
By Fenrir.Divinian 2011-11-15 16:13:19
Leviathan.Alkalinejoe said: »...Not to mention they ave blocked 2g/3g and telephone services from the area. All of this started at 1am. They are really trying to get away with this quickly and quietly...
Can anyone confirm that telephone services were blocked? I haven't read or heard about this part yet.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-11-18 10:02:49
Looks like its time for OWS to GTFO as things are about to get pretty noisy.
Seriously though, this LRAD thing is pretty incredible. I wish they would hook it up to a megaphone, and tell them all to take a shower.
サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-11-19 09:26:24
Looks like its time for OWS to GTFO as things are about to get pretty noisy.
Seriously though, this LRAD thing is pretty incredible. I wish they would hook it up to a megaphone, and tell them all to take a shower.
You're frothing at the mouth at the prospect of Americans being denied their 1st amendment rights aren't you?
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-11-23 09:46:14
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Looks like its time for OWS to GTFO as things are about to get pretty noisy.
Seriously though, this LRAD thing is pretty incredible. I wish they would hook it up to a megaphone, and tell them all to take a shower.
You're frothing at the mouth at the prospect of Americans being denied their 1st amendment rights aren't you?
Do you actually believe that anyone can simply occupy a public park and deny its use to other citizens at their own whim, and that such action is classified as free speech? Why not then just occupy the streets and stop traffic, or shut down a seaport? Would all that be considered free speech too?
Stop being a fool...
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サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-11-23 12:50:16
You came in here cheering the use of a device frequently used by law enforcement to subdue criminals then justify the use by telling me that people can't occupy a public space? Face it, you enjoyed seeing law enforcement run protesters out because you don't care about free speech or public assembly - you just want to see those OWS people driven into obscurity because you disagree.
First off, Zucotti park was private and if the owner didn't want the people there then fair enough, the gov't should step in and direct individuals to protest elsewhere on publicly owned land but that wasn't the case, the govt has been hostile the movement since it started and has been looking for any reason to shut the whole thing down and drive people back to being passive.
Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2011-12-01 21:45:20
サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-12-01 22:13:30
Except law enforcement and the media have been painting ANY protest as a 'waste of taxpayer dollars' and frankly have overall been hostile to any demonstration or exercise of our constitutional rights.
Further the attempts to pit people against eachother by claiming that money could have been used to create jobs is telltale that the whole purpose is to smear any attack against the status quo.
If the government was actually cooperating in finding spaces for occupiers or acting interested in reaching a compromise I might agree but overall the goal is to make things so frustrating that you don't bother protesting in the first place.
Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2011-12-01 23:13:25
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Except law enforcement and the media have been painting ANY protest as a 'waste of taxpayer dollars' and frankly have overall been hostile to any demonstration or exercise of our constitutional rights.
Further the attempts to pit people against eachother by claiming that money could have been used to create jobs is telltale that the whole purpose is to smear any attack against the status quo.
If the government was actually cooperating in finding spaces for occupiers or acting interested in reaching a compromise I might agree but overall the goal is to make things so frustrating that you don't bother protesting in the first place.
I don't remember any tea party protests being thrown out of anywhere. They made their point, cleaned up an went home. The minute you start trashing public spaces, pooping where you shouldn't, and generally being a nuisance for weeks at a time is where your rights end.
Lakshmi.Aurilius
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 1726
By Lakshmi.Aurilius 2011-12-01 23:47:33
Those two videos are hilarious. "The jobs come first, the goods come second". They come simultaneously.
He also doesn't pay 50% in taxes. The only thing I can agree with is that he probably pays more than all of them combined. He also probably makes 100 times more.
 Fenrir.Wezlie
サーバ: Fenrir
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Posts: 17
By Fenrir.Wezlie 2011-12-02 00:36:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJD8pZiRIzs&feature=related
Best explanation I could find. Listen to the whole thing...gets good in the middle!
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By Artemicion 2011-12-02 01:08:04
Too many people are looking to definitively into "what % is fair" and how much of their total income should contribute to taxes.
While such a thing overall is extremely relative and subjective to various exempts and exceptions from how they operate their business therein; the thing that should be addressed the most is the severe gap and margin between 1% and 99%.
Besides, I can't blame people for not wanting to raise taxes since a majority of it goes towards military defense purposes to usher unnecessary wars and legislation that ultimately strips liberties and alienates citizens on any level of "class".
Would be nice if our taxes were prioritized towards programs that benefited large businesses for not outsourcing, or increasing employment rate as opposed to making record layoffs while profits are already at record breaking levels. After all, wealth ultimately comes from labor, which has been diminishing along with their wages for far too long IMO. There has to be a balance between industry and capital; and it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an experienced economist to see it's totally FUBAR right now.
 Cerberus.Savannah
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Posts: 7938
By Cerberus.Savannah 2011-12-02 13:18:57
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Bahamut.Alukat
サーバ: Bahamut
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Posts: 377
By Bahamut.Alukat 2011-12-02 13:31:57
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Bahamut.Danthebk
サーバ: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Danthebk 2011-12-02 13:45:43
I would like to point out, that this is how capitalism is supposed to work.
Also, there is no comparison between OWS and Egypt/Syria/Civil Rights movement. They were fighting for their right to participate in a Democratic system, where as we are already participating in a (semi) Democratic system but are unhappy with the results.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-12-02 13:51:25
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »You came in here cheering the use of a device frequently used by law enforcement to subdue criminals then justify the use by telling me that people can't occupy a public space? Face it, you enjoyed seeing law enforcement run protesters out because you don't care about free speech or public assembly - you just want to see those OWS people driven into obscurity because you disagree.
First off, Zucotti park was private and if the owner didn't want the people there then fair enough, the gov't should step in and direct individuals to protest elsewhere on publicly owned land but that wasn't the case, the govt has been hostile the movement since it started and has been looking for any reason to shut the whole thing down and drive people back to being passive.
You're right. I'm just a fascist.
/sarcasm off
You're attitude is nothing more than a reflection of the group as a whole. Public spaces are governed by public rules, one is not within their 1st amendment rights to go out and "occupy" a public space, shutting down commerce, camping out in city parks, or anything else the OWS group has done.
Everyone else must obtain permits, follow numerous regulations, and pay for ancillary city services if they want to hold a rally or other event that uses a public space. OWS are/were getting preferential treatment by authorities which included free electricity, numerous police overtime details to maintain security, and a pass on all the rules and laws that apply to everyone else. None of which anyone but the taxpayers had to pay for. In the end, they are not even held responsible for completely trashing the public spaces they occupy. Cleanup and all other associated costs at individual sites are climbing and exceeding into the millions.
I want them out of there because nobody else who wants to rally gets this preferred treatment. But because they are so spoiled, and because they feel so entitled, everyone else just has to deal with it, and pay the bill.
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Bahamut.Alukat
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By Bahamut.Alukat 2011-12-02 13:56:27
fix the issues then they won't need to occupy anything.....
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Bahamut.Danthebk
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By Bahamut.Danthebk 2011-12-02 14:02:13
But there aren't any issues, as I stated, both capitalism and democracy are working as intended.
Bahamut.Alukat
サーバ: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Alukat 2011-12-02 14:06:26
But there aren't any issues, as I stated, both capitalism and democracy are working as intended.
some people get everything and other people get nothing.so yes capitalism does work as intended that's true.
but we are far far away from democracy.
Bahamut.Danthebk
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By Bahamut.Danthebk 2011-12-02 14:10:42
You are correct, we actually resemble more closely to a Republic, which is good because (edit: true democracies) Democracies are actually one of the least effective forms of government.
By Artemicion 2011-12-02 14:14:54
You are correct, we actually resemble more closely to a Republic, which is good because Democracies are actually one of the least effective forms of government.
And how accurately would you say candidates running or the politicians in office that were elected reflect the representation or interests of their voters, or even the country as a whole for that matter?
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Bahamut.Alukat
サーバ: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Alukat 2011-12-02 14:19:19
actually, it is an oligarchy. i recommend you to read about the democracy in the greek antiquity.
Well, it's been going on for almost 2 weeks now so I guess it's newsworthy, yet I haven't seen much about it. It's a protest on Wall Street, primarily on the greed and corruption that festers in that area. Between government bailouts of big banks, lobbyists being the directors of lawmaking, and politicians who give in to these obvious benefits, we've seen a great deal of corruption in the US as of late.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20114012-503544.html
Just May of this year, Obama's appointed Meredith Baker went from being the FCC Commissioner to a top lobbying position for Comcast-NBC. Something, just months prior she had used her FCC vote to try and benefit. An obvious conflict of interest.
Or how about General Electric(GE) getting tax refunds by making its profits all off-shore.
Now, this certainly isn't a Cairo sized event, but it very similar to how their protests began. It started with a large group of young citizens, of course. It's usually a common dismissal for some people. "Yeah, yeah, they're college aged kids who think they'll make a difference, whatever." The fact is, is that protests will always come from this group first and foremost. They don't have the daily responsibilities of taking care of a family which ties older age groups down. Not that different age groups can't support them via the means of internet media.
Well, anyway, there has also been accounts of police misconduct. The protests have been primarily peaceful sit-ins, regardless there was use of pepper spray in one instance.
If you're interested, keep your eye on this movement. I doubt it will be a revolutionary event, but it does express a lot of popular disdain for current issues with corruption.
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