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Occupy Wall Street Protests
 Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-10 13:34:06
Okay, here we go... College is not a complete waste of time. It can be if you make it that but it is not a waste of time. Here are a couple of misconceptions about college.
1) if I go to college I will get a great paying job on the way out! false. Things rarely if ever fall into your lap. A lot of people I knew went through four or five years of school and then applied a month or two after they were out and expected to get the job. You still need to work your *** off to get that job as well (not saying some haven't). When applying for a job first make sure your resume is put together well. If you send in a resume and looks like a 3rd grader did it they're not even going to look at it. Follow up. You may feel like you're annoying them but following up is important. It puts your name in their heads again and lets them know hey he/she really wants this job. prepare, prepare, prepare for any interaction you have with your possible employers. Showing up not properly dressed, not properly greeting or not having any idea what to say or do is a very bad sign. If you show up late... well you better have a great excuse but if you're making excuses already... College isn't a hey come take me and you will be autonmatically give a wonderous job. You still have to work just as hard but I gaurantee you that having a college degree on your resume helps and opens doors that wouldn't have been there without it.
2) College doesn't train you for the exact job you will do! Of course it doesn't and I don't see how it possibly could. Trade schools might do that. But colleges are there to give you a well rounded background in the field that you want to enter. As a businesss admin major you learn all kinds of things about the business atmosphere how companies are structured, operations, how to handle yourself in meetings with peers,bosses, and subordinates, we ran faux businesses and all other sorts of things. Is it exactly what I do now? No, but it definitely gave me a background in the industry. College also gets people to broaden their knowledge. Many liberal arts colleges add basic sciences, literature, speech, critical writing, foreign language and such to broaden peoples horizons.
Personally I wouldn't have the job I have today without my degree. I know my dad always told me that he would never have been allowed to progress as far as he did in his company without one either. Sometimes people only want people with degrees at a certain level. It is also true that college is not for everyone. It really depends on what you want to do, how far you want to go and what kind of company you work for. Trade schools are great for some. Others do well without school but it can be a lot harder to advance. Is college a gaurantee that you will get a great job? No. Can it help you advance and open doors that would otherwhise be shut? Yes. Do you still have to work your *** off when you're out? Yes.
In todays job market its even tough because companys have learned to do more with less and therefore there aren't as many positions open. I paid $26,000 a year in tuition and I am debt free atm. I'm 27.
@Vinnv While it is true you can do well with a good work ethic and some talent. Its not always enough to get you to where you should be or where you could be. As for talent? Unless you turn your talent in to skill thats all it is is talent .
you should put a *** saying "college experiences may vary".
I can see what you're saying, but not going to college isn't bad either.
Our culture got into a ritual of shoving anybody and everybody into college in means of getting a good job, making it eventually turn into the cash cow it is today.
Best advice I can say is to do what you feel is right, 'cause that's all you can do.
Also, Flavin the whole nitpick of what I meant by the word "talent" is unneeded. talent/skill all filler words for the same thing in the means that I said it.
Practice and Hard work can turn talent into skill of course, but that's a given.
Unless you do something with your talent, yes it will alone be talent, but HELLOOOO Captain Obvious. ;)
By zahrah 2011-11-10 13:40:38
This is the tragedy of Gen-Y, they are just following directions and expecting to be rewarded. Not that I place all the blame on them. It's the result of "helicopter moms", intramural sports leagues that no longer keep score, and the banning of red pens and the honor roll cause they create too much stress on those who don't perform.
What?!? LOL! Where do you live?
I don't remember every team getting a trophy in little league. I don't remember everyone getting into select soccer, varsity, JV, or receiving medals in track. Not every girl was awarded a solo in ballet. Every team at company dance competitions or drill team competitions didn't go home with plaques.
If anything sports and involvement fosters the false idea that there is merit beyond high school and college.
People banned red pens and the honor roll? Where? Ever heard of National Honors Society?
 Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 13:44:17
Okay, here we go... College is not a complete waste of time. It can be if you make it that but it is not a waste of time. Here are a couple of misconceptions about college. 1) if I go to college I will get a great paying job on the way out! false. Things rarely if ever fall into your lap. A lot of people I knew went through four or five years of school and then applied a month or two after they were out and expected to get the job. You still need to work your *** off to get that job as well (not saying some haven't). When applying for a job first make sure your resume is put together well. If you send in a resume and looks like a 3rd grader did it they're not even going to look at it. Follow up. You may feel like you're annoying them but following up is important. It puts your name in their heads again and lets them know hey he/she really wants this job. prepare, prepare, prepare for any interaction you have with your possible employers. Showing up not properly dressed, not properly greeting or not having any idea what to say or do is a very bad sign. If you show up late... well you better have a great excuse but if you're making excuses already... College isn't a hey come take me and you will be autonmatically give a wonderous job. You still have to work just as hard but I gaurantee you that having a college degree on your resume helps and opens doors that wouldn't have been there without it. 2) College doesn't train you for the exact job you will do! Of course it doesn't and I don't see how it possibly could. Trade schools might do that. But colleges are there to give you a well rounded background in the field that you want to enter. As a businesss admin major you learn all kinds of things about the business atmosphere how companies are structured, operations, how to handle yourself in meetings with peers,bosses, and subordinates, we ran faux businesses and all other sorts of things. Is it exactly what I do now? No, but it definitely gave me a background in the industry. College also gets people to broaden their knowledge. Many liberal arts colleges add basic sciences, literature, speech, critical writing, foreign language and such to broaden peoples horizons. Personally I wouldn't have the job I have today without my degree. I know my dad always told me that he would never have been allowed to progress as far as he did in his company without one either. Sometimes people only want people with degrees at a certain level. It is also true that college is not for everyone. It really depends on what you want to do, how far you want to go and what kind of company you work for. Trade schools are great for some. Others do well without school but it can be a lot harder to advance. Is college a gaurantee that you will get a great job? No. Can it help you advance and open doors that would otherwhise be shut? Yes. Do you still have to work your *** off when you're out? Yes. In todays job market its even tough because companys have learned to do more with less and therefore there aren't as many positions open. I paid $26,000 a year in tuition and I am debt free atm. I'm 27. @Vinnv While it is true you can do well with a good work ethic and some talent. Its not always enough to get you to where you should be or where you could be. As for talent? Unless you turn your talent in to skill thats all it is is talent . you should put a *** saying "college experiences may vary". I can see what you're saying, but not going to college isn't bad either. Our culture got into a ritual of shoving anybody and everybody into college in means of getting a good job, making it eventually turn into the cash cow it is today. Best advice I can say is to do what you feel is right, 'cause that's all you can do. Also, Flavin the whole nitpick of what I meant by the word "talent" is unneeded. talent/skill all filler words for the same thing in the means that I said it. Practice and Hard work can turn talent into skill of course, but that's a given. Unless you do something with your talent, yes it will alone be talent, but HELLOOOO Captain Obvious. ;) Talent to me is an unrefined natural ability. Skill is taking that talent and refining it into something useful. My point is that I've seen peopel who were far more talented than thier peers do nothing with it and fall behind those with less natural ability. Talent alone to me is useless unless you couple it with drive and a good work ethic. Also, in a comepetitive environment you always have to strive to learn more so that you can perform better so natural talent can only take you so far as well.
By volkom 2011-11-10 13:44:20
This is the tragedy of Gen-Y, they are just following directions and expecting to be rewarded. Not that I place all the blame on them. It's the result of "helicopter moms", intramural sports leagues that no longer keep score, and the banning of red pens and the honor roll cause they create too much stress on those who don't perform.
What?!? LOL! Where do you live?
I don't remember every team getting a trophy in little league. I don't remember everyone getting into select soccer, varsity, JV, or receiving medals in track. Not every girl was awarded a solo in ballet. Every team at company dance competitions or drill team competitions didn't go home with plaques.
If anything sports and involvement fosters the false idea that there is merit beyond high school and college.
People banned red pens and the honor roll? Where? Ever heard of National Honors Society? i turned down the national honors society thing in highschool. couldn't justify the monthly dues that I could be spending it on ffxi
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 13:47:02
This is the tragedy of Gen-Y, they are just following directions and expecting to be rewarded. Not that I place all the blame on them. It's the result of "helicopter moms", intramural sports leagues that no longer keep score, and the banning of red pens and the honor roll cause they create too much stress on those who don't perform. What?!? LOL! Where do you live? I don't remember every team getting a trophy in little league. I don't remember everyone getting into select soccer, varsity, JV, or receiving medals in track. Not every girl was awarded a solo in ballet. Every team at company dance competitions or drill team competitions didn't go home with plaques. If anything sports and involvement fosters the false idea that there is merit beyond high school and college. People banned red pens and the honor roll? Where? Ever heard of National Honors Society? i turned down the national honors society thing in highschool. couldn't justify the monthly dues that I could be spending it on ffxi Dues? We never had any dues to join NHS. You just needed a 3.5 gpa and had to put in 100 hours of community service. You also couldn't get J.U.G.S or have any other disciplinary action taken against you. they also got you involved in a lot of school projects and such.
[+]
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 13:49:07
This is the tragedy of Gen-Y, they are just following directions and expecting to be rewarded. Not that I place all the blame on them. It's the result of "helicopter moms", intramural sports leagues that no longer keep score, and the banning of red pens and the honor roll cause they create too much stress on those who don't perform. What?!? LOL! Where do you live? I don't remember every team getting a trophy in little league. I don't remember everyone getting into select soccer, varsity, JV, or receiving medals in track. Not every girl was awarded a solo in ballet. Every team at company dance competitions or drill team competitions didn't go home with plaques. If anything sports and involvement fosters the false idea that there is merit beyond high school and college. People banned red pens and the honor roll? Where? Ever heard of National Honors Society? I have seen some of that in certain places but I've never seen the Honer roll taken out or heard of red pens being banned. there are parents though that put no blame on their children and do blame everything else they can for their kids failure. When enough do it schools are forced to change things. But nothing as across the board as Nausi claims.
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-11-10 13:53:26
Fine arts is the "generic" college degree, its hardly a specialied piece of paper. I would be willing to bet those in the CG industry place pretty much zero weight on their BFA and would probably admit the classes they took geared towards it were just about a waste of time.
Are you really suggesting that scholastic computer programing courses deliver more than ~5% of practical knowledge to the people who take them? I graduated with an architecture degree and by the time I got around to taking the "Autocad" course in my studies, it was a complete waste of time.
I guess my point is, if you want to be a programmer, I'm sure there some far cheaper certification that you can get which will get you through the door to the industry. Isn't that a much better idea than spending +$100,000 on a BFA?
depends on the person, and nothing is a waste of time if you learn something.
Also BFA is not "generic" in any sense but whatever...
Programmer =/= graphic designer, and over $100,000 lol...
BAs & BFAs are what people usually end up getting once they've wasted the first 2 years partying and ultimately conclude they need to actually get a degree in something.
Colleges today can cost over 50k/year (without associated living expenses) you could well spend over 200k going to a 4 year college.
Nothing is a waste of time if you learn something? Please come back to planet earth. How much money is too much money to learn college wasn't for you? 100k? 200k? 500k? Is there a cap in the eyes of Jet? Cause with the rising cost of college, it will get there.
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 13:56:17
Fine arts is the "generic" college degree, its hardly a specialied piece of paper. I would be willing to bet those in the CG industry place pretty much zero weight on their BFA and would probably admit the classes they took geared towards it were just about a waste of time. Are you really suggesting that scholastic computer programing courses deliver more than ~5% of practical knowledge to the people who take them? I graduated with an architecture degree and by the time I got around to taking the "Autocad" course in my studies, it was a complete waste of time. I guess my point is, if you want to be a programmer, I'm sure there some far cheaper certification that you can get which will get you through the door to the industry. Isn't that a much better idea than spending +$100,000 on a BFA? depends on the person, and nothing is a waste of time if you learn something. Also BFA is not "generic" in any sense but whatever... Programmer =/= graphic designer, and over $100,000 lol... BAs & BFAs are what people usually end up getting once they've wasted the first 2 years partying and ultimately conclude they need to actually get a degree in something. Colleges today can cost over 50k/year (without associated living expenses) you could well spend over 200k going to a 4 year college. Nothing is a waste of time if you learn something? Please come back to planet earth. How much money is too much money to learn college wasn't for you? 100k? 200k? 500k? Is there a cap in the eyes of Jet? Cause with the rising cost of college, it will get there. If a $200,000 education nets you a job making $100,000k a year it would be worth it. What I think you overlook is schools that cost that much usually draw elite students and attention of businesses. While it doesn't ever pan out 100% I can say with confidence that schools like that send kids off with better opportunity. They usually hire better staff.
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-11-10 14:01:03
This is the tragedy of Gen-Y, they are just following directions and expecting to be rewarded. Not that I place all the blame on them. It's the result of "helicopter moms", intramural sports leagues that no longer keep score, and the banning of red pens and the honor roll cause they create too much stress on those who don't perform. What?!? LOL! Where do you live? I don't remember every team getting a trophy in little league. I don't remember everyone getting into select soccer, varsity, JV, or receiving medals in track. Not every girl was awarded a solo in ballet. Every team at company dance competitions or drill team competitions didn't go home with plaques. If anything sports and involvement fosters the false idea that there is merit beyond high school and college. People banned red pens and the honor roll? Where? Ever heard of National Honors Society? I have seen some of that in certain places but I've never seen the Honer roll taken out or heard of red pens being banned. there are parents though that put no blame on their children and do blame everything else they can for their kids failure. When enough do it schools are forced to change things. But nothing as across the board as Nausi claims.
I live in NE, and spend most of my time traveling between RI and MA. School systems here have refused to publish the scholastic honor roll in the public paper because of the "stresses" it imposes on the kids that don't make the honor roll, that is what I meant. My friends coach a youth soccer league that penalizes teams that begin to win by too great of a margin. Seriously, if their team has more than 3 or 4 points they have to take players off the field, so things are more "fair".
Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-10 14:01:32
Okay, here we go... College is not a complete waste of time. It can be if you make it that but it is not a waste of time. Here are a couple of misconceptions about college. 1) if I go to college I will get a great paying job on the way out! false. Things rarely if ever fall into your lap. A lot of people I knew went through four or five years of school and then applied a month or two after they were out and expected to get the job. You still need to work your *** off to get that job as well (not saying some haven't). When applying for a job first make sure your resume is put together well. If you send in a resume and looks like a 3rd grader did it they're not even going to look at it. Follow up. You may feel like you're annoying them but following up is important. It puts your name in their heads again and lets them know hey he/she really wants this job. prepare, prepare, prepare for any interaction you have with your possible employers. Showing up not properly dressed, not properly greeting or not having any idea what to say or do is a very bad sign. If you show up late... well you better have a great excuse but if you're making excuses already... College isn't a hey come take me and you will be autonmatically give a wonderous job. You still have to work just as hard but I gaurantee you that having a college degree on your resume helps and opens doors that wouldn't have been there without it. 2) College doesn't train you for the exact job you will do! Of course it doesn't and I don't see how it possibly could. Trade schools might do that. But colleges are there to give you a well rounded background in the field that you want to enter. As a businesss admin major you learn all kinds of things about the business atmosphere how companies are structured, operations, how to handle yourself in meetings with peers,bosses, and subordinates, we ran faux businesses and all other sorts of things. Is it exactly what I do now? No, but it definitely gave me a background in the industry. College also gets people to broaden their knowledge. Many liberal arts colleges add basic sciences, literature, speech, critical writing, foreign language and such to broaden peoples horizons. Personally I wouldn't have the job I have today without my degree. I know my dad always told me that he would never have been allowed to progress as far as he did in his company without one either. Sometimes people only want people with degrees at a certain level. It is also true that college is not for everyone. It really depends on what you want to do, how far you want to go and what kind of company you work for. Trade schools are great for some. Others do well without school but it can be a lot harder to advance. Is college a gaurantee that you will get a great job? No. Can it help you advance and open doors that would otherwhise be shut? Yes. Do you still have to work your *** off when you're out? Yes. In todays job market its even tough because companys have learned to do more with less and therefore there aren't as many positions open. I paid $26,000 a year in tuition and I am debt free atm. I'm 27. @Vinnv While it is true you can do well with a good work ethic and some talent. Its not always enough to get you to where you should be or where you could be. As for talent? Unless you turn your talent in to skill thats all it is is talent . you should put a *** saying "college experiences may vary". I can see what you're saying, but not going to college isn't bad either. Our culture got into a ritual of shoving anybody and everybody into college in means of getting a good job, making it eventually turn into the cash cow it is today. Best advice I can say is to do what you feel is right, 'cause that's all you can do. Also, Flavin the whole nitpick of what I meant by the word "talent" is unneeded. talent/skill all filler words for the same thing in the means that I said it. Practice and Hard work can turn talent into skill of course, but that's a given. Unless you do something with your talent, yes it will alone be talent, but HELLOOOO Captain Obvious. ;) Talent to me is an unrefined natural ability. Skill is taking that talent and refining it into something useful. My point is that I've seen peopel who were far more talented than thier peers do nothing with it and fall behind those with less natural ability. Talent alone to me is useless unless you couple it with drive and a good work ethic. Also, in a comepetitive environment you always have to strive to learn more so that you can perform better so natural talent can only take you so far as well. Ramuh.Vinvv said: Practice and Hard work can turn talent into skill of course, but that's a given. Just said that, said that in the original post.
Hence the Captain Obvious remark. ;)
My point is that your point is the same as my point.
At least when it comes to that. :D
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2011-11-10 14:04:54
You're not allowed to agree on the internets!
/banhammer
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 14:10:20
This is the tragedy of Gen-Y, they are just following directions and expecting to be rewarded. Not that I place all the blame on them. It's the result of "helicopter moms", intramural sports leagues that no longer keep score, and the banning of red pens and the honor roll cause they create too much stress on those who don't perform. What?!? LOL! Where do you live? I don't remember every team getting a trophy in little league. I don't remember everyone getting into select soccer, varsity, JV, or receiving medals in track. Not every girl was awarded a solo in ballet. Every team at company dance competitions or drill team competitions didn't go home with plaques. If anything sports and involvement fosters the false idea that there is merit beyond high school and college. People banned red pens and the honor roll? Where? Ever heard of National Honors Society? I have seen some of that in certain places but I've never seen the Honer roll taken out or heard of red pens being banned. there are parents though that put no blame on their children and do blame everything else they can for their kids failure. When enough do it schools are forced to change things. But nothing as across the board as Nausi claims. I live in NE, and spend most of my time traveling between RI and MA. School systems here have refused to publish the scholastic honor roll in the public paper because of the "stresses" it imposes on the kids that don't make the honor roll, that is what I meant. My friends coach a youth soccer league that penalizes teams that begin to win by too great of a margin. Seriously, if their team has more than 3 or 4 points they have to take players off the field, so things are more "fair". Got ya. I would agree with you in that its more harmful to them in that way. Competition is important to participate in and learn about.
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 14:12:11
I guess my views have been skewed when people say something is obvious because I've come to find what I think is obvious is not always so much to the person next to me. I think thats why I usually find the need to explain myself.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-11-10 14:16:27
Fine arts is the "generic" college degree, its hardly a specialied piece of paper. I would be willing to bet those in the CG industry place pretty much zero weight on their BFA and would probably admit the classes they took geared towards it were just about a waste of time.
Are you really suggesting that scholastic computer programing courses deliver more than ~5% of practical knowledge to the people who take them? I graduated with an architecture degree and by the time I got around to taking the "Autocad" course in my studies, it was a complete waste of time.
I guess my point is, if you want to be a programmer, I'm sure there some far cheaper certification that you can get which will get you through the door to the industry. Isn't that a much better idea than spending +$100,000 on a BFA?
depends on the person, and nothing is a waste of time if you learn something.
Also BFA is not "generic" in any sense but whatever...
Programmer =/= graphic designer, and over $100,000 lol...
BAs & BFAs are what people usually end up getting once they've wasted the first 2 years partying and ultimately conclude they need to actually get a degree in something.
Colleges today can cost over 50k/year (without associated living expenses) you could well spend over 200k going to a 4 year college.
Nothing is a waste of time if you learn something? Please come back to planet earth. How much money is too much money to learn college wasn't for you? 100k? 200k? 500k? Is there a cap in the eyes of Jet? Cause with the rising cost of college, it will get there.
2 years of college just cost me less than 1k, can do 2 more for 25-30k.
Even if I actually had to pay all of it, it would have only cost me about 5k (for these 2 years).
I was talking about smart people who have a future not the majority of people who are idiots, so yeah I CAN see your point.
My girlfriend is currently looking at obtaining a BFA in computer graphics, whether or not she will be able to use it is all up to her.
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-11-10 14:24:50
Fine arts is the "generic" college degree, its hardly a specialied piece of paper. I would be willing to bet those in the CG industry place pretty much zero weight on their BFA and would probably admit the classes they took geared towards it were just about a waste of time. Are you really suggesting that scholastic computer programing courses deliver more than ~5% of practical knowledge to the people who take them? I graduated with an architecture degree and by the time I got around to taking the "Autocad" course in my studies, it was a complete waste of time. I guess my point is, if you want to be a programmer, I'm sure there some far cheaper certification that you can get which will get you through the door to the industry. Isn't that a much better idea than spending +$100,000 on a BFA? depends on the person, and nothing is a waste of time if you learn something. Also BFA is not "generic" in any sense but whatever... Programmer =/= graphic designer, and over $100,000 lol... BAs & BFAs are what people usually end up getting once they've wasted the first 2 years partying and ultimately conclude they need to actually get a degree in something. Colleges today can cost over 50k/year (without associated living expenses) you could well spend over 200k going to a 4 year college. Nothing is a waste of time if you learn something? Please come back to planet earth. How much money is too much money to learn college wasn't for you? 100k? 200k? 500k? Is there a cap in the eyes of Jet? Cause with the rising cost of college, it will get there. If a $200,000 education nets you a job making $100,000k a year it would be worth it. What I think you overlook is schools that cost that much usually draw elite students and attention of businesses. While it doesn't ever pan out 100% I can say with confidence that schools like that send kids off with better opportunity. They usually hire better staff.
I said before, some degrees are worth going to college, many aren't. 200k for 100k a year job, right out the gate? That would certainly be worth it. I don't think that happens as often as you think it does, even in ivy league schools. Top of their class grads may be offered such things, but not everyone. It's more likely that you'll spend 80-120k on a college for 4 years and be offered a 40-50k job after (if you grab a worthwhile degree). If you don't study anything worthwhile, you'll hardly be in much better of a spot than if you hadn't gone in the first place, but you will have tons of debt. That's far less worth it considering you could learn a trade for far less money and in far less time.
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 14:35:46
Fine arts is the "generic" college degree, its hardly a specialied piece of paper. I would be willing to bet those in the CG industry place pretty much zero weight on their BFA and would probably admit the classes they took geared towards it were just about a waste of time. Are you really suggesting that scholastic computer programing courses deliver more than ~5% of practical knowledge to the people who take them? I graduated with an architecture degree and by the time I got around to taking the "Autocad" course in my studies, it was a complete waste of time. I guess my point is, if you want to be a programmer, I'm sure there some far cheaper certification that you can get which will get you through the door to the industry. Isn't that a much better idea than spending +$100,000 on a BFA? depends on the person, and nothing is a waste of time if you learn something. Also BFA is not "generic" in any sense but whatever... Programmer =/= graphic designer, and over $100,000 lol... BAs & BFAs are what people usually end up getting once they've wasted the first 2 years partying and ultimately conclude they need to actually get a degree in something. Colleges today can cost over 50k/year (without associated living expenses) you could well spend over 200k going to a 4 year college. Nothing is a waste of time if you learn something? Please come back to planet earth. How much money is too much money to learn college wasn't for you? 100k? 200k? 500k? Is there a cap in the eyes of Jet? Cause with the rising cost of college, it will get there. If a $200,000 education nets you a job making $100,000k a year it would be worth it. What I think you overlook is schools that cost that much usually draw elite students and attention of businesses. While it doesn't ever pan out 100% I can say with confidence that schools like that send kids off with better opportunity. They usually hire better staff. I said before, some degrees are worth going to college, many aren't. 200k for 100k a year job, right out the gate? That would certainly be worth it. I don't think that happens as often as you think it does, even in ivy league schools. Top of their class grads may be offered such things, but not everyone. It's more likely that you'll spend 80-120k on a college for 4 years and be offered a 40-50k job after (if you grab a worthwhile degree). If you don't study anything worthwhile, you'll hardly be in much better of a spot than if you hadn't gone in the first place, but you will have tons of debt. That's far less worth it considering you could learn a trade for far less money and in far less time. My point is that going to Ivy league schools and others that cost you an arm and a leg usually present better opportunities and futures going forward. This also has to do with the connections the school has and the weight the name holds. There are some companies that only recruit from certain schools. I'm fairly sure that those schools also have a higher median income than many other schools graduates as well. While yes there are people who go on to succeed after attendin a state school those big time schools again open doors that would otherwhise be closed. College is also about networking too. I'm not saying it gaurantees anything but it opens more doors.
Edit: my point is that school is usually a waste of time for those that don't take advantage of it and all it could entail. Not only meaning the academic part but all the networking and programs that are there for students to help them get a job when they are getting ready to graduate or internships. Some schools are better at it than others but yeah... College is nto for everyone but is is for some and it definitely provides an advantage if you make full use of the opportunity.
Ramuh.Vinvv
サーバ: Ramuh
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By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-10 14:35:49
I guess my views have been skewed when people say something is obvious because I've come to find what I think is obvious is not always so much to the person next to me. I think thats why I usually find the need to explain myself. Is it not obvious that we are saying the same thing though, if you read what I said compared to what you said it's pretty much the same thing, 'cept the primary extent of my point is that you don't necessarily need college, but it can help. Yours is pretty much set ina defensive measure as to why college is good, which isn't really against what I was saying. I.E. defensive for meh reasons.
My primary point illustrated what one should do in regards to college, and that is go with what you feel is right.
makes me think of an old saying:
More than one way to skin a cat, ever hear of that?
Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-11-10 14:51:26
I know higher education can be a great opportunity to many who choose to take advantage of it. My point is that probably the (vast) majority of people who are in college are not taking advantage of it. They are just there because they think its where they need to be. They are following the trend and motions of their generation hoping it will pay out for them as well. This isn't a bad idea if you have the money to burn. Problem is that most people don't have that money.
Vinvv is quite admirable IMO anyways for the self realization that college debt may not be in his best interest. Debt is awful, even small amounts when you're very young can be downright crippling to your future.
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 15:22:44
I know higher education can be a great opportunity to many who choose to take advantage of it. My point is that probably the (vast) majority of people who are in college are not taking advantage of it. They are just there because they think its where they need to be. They are following the trend and motions of their generation hoping it will pay out for them as well. This isn't a bad idea if you have the money to burn. Problem is that most people don't have that money. Vinvv is quite admirable IMO anyways for the self realization that college debt may not be in his best interest. Debt is awful, even small amounts when you're very young can be downright crippling to your future. Not to say Universities are blameless as for that kind of money they should be providing quality service but people failing to take of the advantages that they paid for is rather near sighted. Wouldn't you say some of the fault lies on both sides?
Its like with the housing crisis now. A lot of people that lost there homes did so because they bought homes they could not afford. Banks were negligent in letting them do that but hey things were good and they were making money hand over fist so they encouraged that and even encouraged borrowing on the homes as well. In the end fault lands on both sides as they were both irresponsible but the banks were bailed out even though they acted irresponsibly and a lot of those people just lost their homes. Thats where the unfair part came about. Wouldn't have it been nice if they just paid the banks to forgive loan amounts? lol.
I would agree that it is good to perform a self examnation of one's self and make an informed decision on whether it would be the choice for that individual.
I disagree that all debt is bad. Debt that you can afford is actually good. Debt that you can not afford is bad. Any one who has purchased a home is in debt. the difference there though is that people go to school and pay for it while they may not have a job or one that can't pay it all off. People who buy homes have to have an income.
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-11-10 15:23:20
I guess my views have been skewed when people say something is obvious because I've come to find what I think is obvious is not always so much to the person next to me. I think thats why I usually find the need to explain myself. Is it not obvious that we are saying the same thing though, if you read what I said compared to what you said it's pretty much the same thing, 'cept the primary extent of my point is that you don't necessarily need college, but it can help. Yours is pretty much set ina defensive measure as to why college is good, which isn't really against what I was saying. I.E. defensive for meh reasons. My primary point illustrated what one should do in regards to college, and that is go with what you feel is right. makes me think of an old saying: More than one way to skin a cat, ever hear of that? I thought I made it obvious that that was not obvious to me...
By zahrah 2011-11-10 16:12:57
Here's how I feel about it...If you can't afford Harvard, NYU, or Cornell tuition, don't go to ivy league or mid-tier ivy league school. If you can't afford private colleges, there are state colleges. If you can't afford out-of-state tuition, don't go out-of-state. If you can't afford college right off the bat, knock some credits out at a community college then transfer.
Look into scholarships, and apply for every one that is suited to you. Work while attending school. Take internships. There are ways of going to school without being $50K+ in debt.
I have a friend who went to Dartmouth for pre-law. To this day he still wishes he would have gone to UT or Texas Tech. He spent three years doing paralegal work before he could continue with law school.
I'm starting post-grads next year, but I have waited until I was in the financial position to support getting a graduate degree.
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Leviathan.Hohenheim
サーバ: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Hohenheim 2011-11-10 16:21:40
Here's how I feel about it...If you can't afford Harvard, NYU, or Cornell tuition, don't go to ivy league or mid-tier ivy league school. If you can't afford private colleges, there are state colleges. If you can't afford out-of-state tuition, don't go out-of-state. If you can't afford college right off the bat, knock some credits out at a community college then transfer.
Look into scholarships, and apply for every one that is suited to you. Work while attending school. Take internships. There are ways of going to school without being $50K+ in debt.
I have a friend who went to Dartmouth for pre-law. To this day he still wishes he would have gone to UT or Texas Tech. He spent three years doing paralegal work before he could continue with law school.
I'm starting post-grads next year, but I have waited until I was in the financial position to support getting a graduate degree.
While this is true, I don't think it always works out that easy. Tuition jumps every year, and schools will try to screw you over. That's whats happened to me so far. I was paying $7k a year, which is manageable for 4 years, until the next year, they decided to increase tuition $3k then cut half of my scholarships due to lack of state funding. There's hardly any scholarships that apply specifically to me, being a white male; everyone want's the diverse minorities and women doing engineering.
In minnesota too, the state university is being so overflooded with people now, because it's cheaper and people can't afford to go to other places. They have guarenteed housing for freshmen only, and even half of them don't get housing now because there's just that many people. College is really is a mess now.
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Caitsith.Mahayaya
サーバ: Caitsith
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Posts: 3341
By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2011-11-10 16:34:00
Leviathan.Hohenheim said: »Here's how I feel about it...If you can't afford Harvard, NYU, or Cornell tuition, don't go to ivy league or mid-tier ivy league school. If you can't afford private colleges, there are state colleges. If you can't afford out-of-state tuition, don't go out-of-state. If you can't afford college right off the bat, knock some credits out at a community college then transfer.
Look into scholarships, and apply for every one that is suited to you. Work while attending school. Take internships. There are ways of going to school without being $50K+ in debt.
I have a friend who went to Dartmouth for pre-law. To this day he still wishes he would have gone to UT or Texas Tech. He spent three years doing paralegal work before he could continue with law school.
I'm starting post-grads next year, but I have waited until I was in the financial position to support getting a graduate degree.
While this is true, I don't think it always works out that easy. Tuition jumps every year, and schools will try to screw you over. That's whats happened to me so far. I was paying $7k a year, which is manageable for 4 years, until the next year, they decided to increase tuition $3k then cut half of my scholarships due to lack of state funding. There's hardly any scholarships that apply specifically to me, being a white male; everyone want's the diverse minorities and women doing engineering.
In minnesota too, the state university is being so overflooded with people now, because it's cheaper and people can't afford to go to other places. They have guarenteed housing for freshmen only, and even half of them don't get housing now because there's just that many people. College is really is a mess now.
And the sad thing is that college isn't even guaranteed to produce a good workforce. The stuff taught in college vs. the stuff you do in your business life are often times completely different. It's only if you plan to pursue a career in academia does it truly apply. The best thing you can do to learn your field of work is to learn through experience.
Now, that doesn't mean I don't appreciate my education, because I do. But knowing how to spell and knowing useless bits of history isn't going to put food on the table. Being good at my job and being ambitious enough to pursue it will certainly get me fed.
I know it says 11th Grade, but the graph wouldn't be too much different for many college classes.
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Odin.Liela
サーバ: Odin
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Posts: 10191
By Odin.Liela 2011-11-10 16:41:41
My debt seems huge to me, but honestly, it's pretty small compared to other college grads. I have $16,000 in debt. I know people with over $100k. Crazy!
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サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-11-10 16:46:36
The question I have for people of the opinion that you can avoid college altogether and become successful: Do you think that'll be true in the next 10 years? 20? 25? I don't. Not overall at least.
Soon in the US even the most menial jobs are going to require some college and foregoing the whole thing could be extremely costly unless you happen to become an entrepreneur or have connections. Why? Because population is outpacing jobs, jobs are being shipped out by the containerload and obstacles must be put up to keep people doing something until older folk drop out of their jobs... except that isn't happening.
I know alot of people jump straight to "well, college is a waste of time" or "people just drink, party and have sex all day" and that may be true for some but college is a place where many individuals create lifelong bonds, learn things they would likely never gain anywhere else and you're are forced to come into contact with various new ideas and peoples.
What many families should exercise is some restraint regarding attending schools with insane tuitions and consider state or city schools that cost a fraction of what private institutions want.
You get out of college what you put into it.
Besides, how many High School students know what they want to do with themselves post-graduation? I know I didn't. For the people that do, various entrepreneurs have been fronting programs where these special individuals can be given money to chase their dreams without college.
Said people are far from the norm though.
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By zahrah 2011-11-10 16:54:17
Hoenheim,
I have to agree about the tuition hikes. I wish they would lock tuition prices for each year at your date of entry. It's really unfair.
I received my bachelors the summer everything went to ***in 2008. I can't imagine what it's like now.
/cringe
Leila,
Yeah...I thought $11K was bad until I compared it to other people's debt. Rest assured, you'll pay it off.
I do know a few who have defaulted on their student loans. :(
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3351
By Fenrir.Terminus 2011-11-10 16:56:45
That's the thing -
The job many times doesn't require the degree; it's the company.
As far as the eye opening experiences, friendships, and things of that nature - truly, they are valuable. You could say priceless. Except that if that is the only think a person gets out of their college experience, they've totally overspent. All kinds of experiences are to be had along every different life path - and many of those aren't $5k per semester or more.
But to answer your question, it's totally going to continue to be tougher and tougher to succeed without a degree. But I think that is only because it's going to be more difficult to get in the door without one. I do believe that many good jobs actually do make use of their corresponding degree, I just believe that that is outpaced by the jobs that "require" them, only because they can.
Caitsith.Mahayaya
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3341
By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2011-11-10 17:01:41
I'll tie this in with actual Occupy Wall Street stuff...
Look at it in terms of money. It's a debt generator. The monetary system is based on debt currently. Money is introduced into the system through loans made out to individuals and the government.
Meanwhile, the money is being funneled to China, India, Mexico. The children are raised to believe college is necessary to get a job and take out loans to accomplish such.
Eventually, the residents of America are left with a bill that can't be paid. Not only the government itself, but each individual as well. The 1% grow stronger and the 99% become wage slaves.
The solution would be that governments and banksters go global. It no longer becomes a nation to nation concern, but the entire world acts as one entity furthering the divide between the elite and the common.
There are people who honestly believe that an amateur who learned under a university is more worthwhile than a master at his trade who learned via previous masters of the trade. That's ridiculous. Learning is learning. Just because you get some certificate from a certain school doesn't mean that your learning is greater than another's learning.
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By zahrah 2011-11-10 17:22:02
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »What many families should exercise is some restraint regarding attending schools with insane tuitions and consider state or city schools that cost a fraction of what private institutions want.
You get out of college what you put into it.
Thank you!!! Exactly the point that I wanted to illustrate! I went to a state school, and last time I checked, it is still ranked eighth in the nation for what I majored in.
Quote: Besides, how many High School students know what they want to do with themselves post-graduation? I know I didn't.
I thought I did, but then I had a complete melt down when I realized that I would end up being a teacher. (Not saying that teaching is bad, I just wouldn't have the patience for it and it wouldn't be a fulfilling career for me.)
Well, it's been going on for almost 2 weeks now so I guess it's newsworthy, yet I haven't seen much about it. It's a protest on Wall Street, primarily on the greed and corruption that festers in that area. Between government bailouts of big banks, lobbyists being the directors of lawmaking, and politicians who give in to these obvious benefits, we've seen a great deal of corruption in the US as of late.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20114012-503544.html
Just May of this year, Obama's appointed Meredith Baker went from being the FCC Commissioner to a top lobbying position for Comcast-NBC. Something, just months prior she had used her FCC vote to try and benefit. An obvious conflict of interest.
Or how about General Electric(GE) getting tax refunds by making its profits all off-shore.
Now, this certainly isn't a Cairo sized event, but it very similar to how their protests began. It started with a large group of young citizens, of course. It's usually a common dismissal for some people. "Yeah, yeah, they're college aged kids who think they'll make a difference, whatever." The fact is, is that protests will always come from this group first and foremost. They don't have the daily responsibilities of taking care of a family which ties older age groups down. Not that different age groups can't support them via the means of internet media.
Well, anyway, there has also been accounts of police misconduct. The protests have been primarily peaceful sit-ins, regardless there was use of pepper spray in one instance.
If you're interested, keep your eye on this movement. I doubt it will be a revolutionary event, but it does express a lot of popular disdain for current issues with corruption.
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