"BLM Frame Can't Out Nuke A Real BLM"
"BLM frame can't out nuke a real BLM"
BLM isn't all about putting out huge numbers, inside and outside Abyssea. Even if a puppet can put out a huge nuke, BLM's AOE spells, sleeps, enfeebles, debuffs, etc make it far more useful, mostly because the character has control over these actions. A good BLM knows how to time every spell accordingly. Relying on a game's AI is what hurts PUP the most, because it's going to be the player's intuition and understanding of game mechanics that prevail.
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Leviathan.Draylo said: »
That BLM is using inferior atma
what atma is inferior ? what change would you do ? (outside Hell's Guardian)
Siren.Jingles said: »
BLM isn't all about putting out huge numbers, inside and outside Abyssea. Even if a puppet can put out a huge nuke, BLM's AOE spells, sleeps, enfeebles, debuffs, etc make it far more useful, mostly because the character has control over these actions. A good BLM knows how to time every spell accordingly. Relying on a game's AI is what hurts PUP the most, because it's going to be the player's intuition and understanding of game mechanics that prevail.
qft. Also, lolpup (can't never have enough of that)
"PUP is better than BLM when you don't have to proc" is what I am getting out of this thread. And I agree.
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I always hated that a blms dmg potential comes off of a mb so if you want to compare a single nuke our max dmg possible is off of a mb. We can put out high single nukes i never bothered to screen my normal nukes on bluffalo or exp fodder unless it hit 5 digit msrks. As is shown in that screenshot that isnt mine :(!
But these things always suck cause theres always some factor people take out like our set procs our magic crit that are naturally on our blm sets for nukes. If they proc i personally think that more then averages out but thats my lame 2 cents.
But these things always suck cause theres always some factor people take out like our set procs our magic crit that are naturally on our blm sets for nukes. If they proc i personally think that more then averages out but thats my lame 2 cents.
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So no one would even consider a BLM frame PUP as an additional source of damage is what I'm gathering from this?
When I was doing some tests a few years back, I found that PUP cannot get the day-of-the-week bonus with a (3-Ice-Maneuver) Ice Maker- nuke. This looked like bug and maybe fixed, but a day-of-the-week BLM has the advantage of wearing elemental OBIs, and at 99, will be able to go BLM/SCH for hailstorm and blizzaja will completely obliterate anything PUP can do (if it doesn't already).
I used to be career PUP and BLM so I'm not biased, I recognize the deficiencies of PUP. Pup is just a cute fun job and isn't a serious job like BLM. If I just wanna relax and *** around, I play PUP.
Maybe what pup needs is a serious boost to Ice Maker so that while PUP cannot nuke back to back like a BLM, they can at least get 1 nuke every 2-3 minutes that just completely out-damages a BLM's highest tier spell. A job as versatile as PUP will never get that upgrade though, a trade-off for being versatile. Same goes for SCH.
I used to be career PUP and BLM so I'm not biased, I recognize the deficiencies of PUP. Pup is just a cute fun job and isn't a serious job like BLM. If I just wanna relax and *** around, I play PUP.
Maybe what pup needs is a serious boost to Ice Maker so that while PUP cannot nuke back to back like a BLM, they can at least get 1 nuke every 2-3 minutes that just completely out-damages a BLM's highest tier spell. A job as versatile as PUP will never get that upgrade though, a trade-off for being versatile. Same goes for SCH.
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
So no one would even consider a BLM frame PUP as an additional source of damage is what I'm gathering from this?
not over a blm.
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Then again, because the AI on the pet is so bad, to compensate, the pup should just hit for 999999 every time the appropriate action is performed.
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Cerberus.Wojo said: »
When I was doing some tests a few years back, I found that PUP cannot get the day-of-the-week bonus with a (3-Ice-Maneuver) Ice Maker- nuke. This looked like bug and maybe fixed, but a day-of-the-week BLM has the advantage of wearing elemental OBIs, and at 99, will be able to go BLM/SCH for hailstorm and blizzaja will completely obliterate anything PUP can do (if it doesn't already).
I used to be career PUP and BLM so I'm not biased, I recognize the deficiencies of PUP. Pup is just a cute fun job and isn't a serious job like BLM. If I just wanna relax and *** around, I play PUP.
Maybe what pup needs is a serious boost to Ice Maker so that while PUP cannot nuke back to back like a BLM, they can at least get 1 nuke every 2-3 minutes that just completely out-damages a BLM's highest tier spell. A job as versatile as PUP will never get that upgrade though, a trade-off for being versatile. Same goes for SCH.
I used to be career PUP and BLM so I'm not biased, I recognize the deficiencies of PUP. Pup is just a cute fun job and isn't a serious job like BLM. If I just wanna relax and *** around, I play PUP.
Maybe what pup needs is a serious boost to Ice Maker so that while PUP cannot nuke back to back like a BLM, they can at least get 1 nuke every 2-3 minutes that just completely out-damages a BLM's highest tier spell. A job as versatile as PUP will never get that upgrade though, a trade-off for being versatile. Same goes for SCH.
I don't think of my "career pup" as a "cute job"... And SCH's dmg has gone up quite a bit recently. Especially with the Strat charges to solo skillchain/MB with magic.
The Blm vs Spiritreaver debate is silly and incredibly old. No one sits there and debates the utility of a summoners BP:Rage, or when it is good to bring a summoner to a fight. Spiritreaver is the same way, if you want a hate free long range dd for a fight, use a pup over a blm. Pup can not only hit high numbers (and yes, outnuke, as it has been able to for years), it will output a higher dot than blm due to infinite mp and ability to nuke continually, even if you're not outnuking spell for spell at the moment.
Does this even apply in the majority of ff anymore? No. I'm not even actually certain where it would apply atm. That dosen't mean it's a bad idea to bring pup over a blm to fights. I don't even care if there is a blm there beyond proccing in abyssea. Just like I don't care beyond the other 18 jobs that are not mnk or whm in abyssea.
If you don't play pup you're not going to respect pup, it's been that way since day one.
Does this even apply in the majority of ff anymore? No. I'm not even actually certain where it would apply atm. That dosen't mean it's a bad idea to bring pup over a blm to fights. I don't even care if there is a blm there beyond proccing in abyssea. Just like I don't care beyond the other 18 jobs that are not mnk or whm in abyssea.
If you don't play pup you're not going to respect pup, it's been that way since day one.
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
So no one would even consider a BLM frame PUP as an additional source of damage is what I'm gathering from this?
not over a blm.
Pretty much. For ONE nuke, yeah you can beat a BLM by a tiny margin. But guess what? Soon as that Blizzard5 lands, time to start casting Thunder 5 while your auto sits there waiting on its timer. It isn't one nuke that wins a fight, its the total damage, and a BLM will handily neat a pup. Then staggers/stun/sleeps/enmity douse/gravity/backup cures and other things will be lost. Would I turn a pup down.. no, but if he has BLM I am asking him to change.. unless its voidwatch and we -may- need PUP abilities. (and we have another BLM)
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
So no one would even consider a BLM frame PUP as an additional source of damage is what I'm gathering from this?
not over a blm.
Again, because of stuns/staggering, PUP is obviously going to get picked last over BLM/SCH. And I'm just suggesting it over another choice for damage. Not staggering/stun. Not replacing a BLM.
Fenrir.Rekial said: »
The Blm vs Spiritreaver debate is silly and incredibly old. No one sits there and debates the utility of a summoners BP:Rage, or when it is good to bring a summoner to a fight. Spiritreaver is the same way, if you want a hate free long range dd for a fight, use a pup over a blm. Pup can not only hit high numbers (and yes, outnuke, as it has been able to for years), it will output a higher dot than blm due to infinite mp and ability to nuke continually, even if you're not outnuking spell for spell at the moment.
Does this even apply in the majority of ff anymore? No. I'm not even actually certain where it would apply atm. That dosen't mean it's a bad idea to bring pup over a blm to fights. I don't even care if there is a blm there beyond proccing in abyssea. Just like I don't care beyond the other 18 jobs that are not mnk or whm in abyssea.
If you don't play pup you're not going to respect pup, it's been that way since day one.
Does this even apply in the majority of ff anymore? No. I'm not even actually certain where it would apply atm. That dosen't mean it's a bad idea to bring pup over a blm to fights. I don't even care if there is a blm there beyond proccing in abyssea. Just like I don't care beyond the other 18 jobs that are not mnk or whm in abyssea.
If you don't play pup you're not going to respect pup, it's been that way since day one.
I wanna get in on this:
I don't care if there is a thf beyond proccing TH! SUCK IT THFS!
Lakshmi.Eyrhika said: »
Pretty much. For ONE nuke, yeah you can beat a BLM by a tiny margin. But guess what? Soon as that Blizzard5 lands, time to start casting Thunder 5 while your auto sits there waiting on its timer.
Ya for the 2 first nukes when you will hit Enmity Douse, but guess what, on the 2 next nuke, the blm will be killed by the NM because he has to much enmity, while the automaton can nuke w/o wait the time that tank need to build a minimum of hate. That mean start to nuke from 100% of Mob's HP.
Of course i'm not comparing the 2 jobs like you did cause for me blm is more usefull (since it's not a dd onry, and because you need to proc all weakness you can), but you have a very very wrong idea of pup. The advantage on DOT dmg is far away of what you said, because of MP and hate, even with Enmity Douse.
Lakshmi.Eyrhika said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
So no one would even consider a BLM frame PUP as an additional source of damage is what I'm gathering from this?
not over a blm.
Pretty much. For ONE nuke, yeah you can beat a BLM by a tiny margin. But guess what? Soon as that Blizzard5 lands, time to start casting Thunder 5 while your auto sits there waiting on its timer. It isn't one nuke that wins a fight, its the total damage, and a BLM will handily neat a pup.
...
Ice Maneuverx3
Deploy
-wait for nuke to go off-
Deactivate
Activate
Repeat.
Biggest wait between each maxed out nuke is 1min. Just to inform ya. Which is also what I said in the OP; that Deactivating after each nuke resets the recast timer and clears all hate.
obligatory sch will out nuke both remark ^^
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Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
Lakshmi.Eyrhika said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
So no one would even consider a BLM frame PUP as an additional source of damage is what I'm gathering from this?
not over a blm.
Pretty much. For ONE nuke, yeah you can beat a BLM by a tiny margin. But guess what? Soon as that Blizzard5 lands, time to start casting Thunder 5 while your auto sits there waiting on its timer. It isn't one nuke that wins a fight, its the total damage, and a BLM will handily neat a pup.
...
Ice Maneuverx3
Deploy
-wait for nuke to go off-
Deactivate
Activate
Repeat.
Biggest wait between each maxed out nuke is 1min. Just to inform ya. Which is also what I said in the OP; that Deactivating after each nuke resets the recast timer and clears all hate.
the AF3 body must really help with overload, cuz you'd hafto wait a while before.
PUP is a strong job when played properly (which rarely happens), but there are no events in the game that call for it (procs in Voidwatch?).
Plus, arguing "which magic DD has the best DPS" is like arguing over tenth place in a race. If you care, you shouldn't care.
Plus, arguing "which magic DD has the best DPS" is like arguing over tenth place in a race. If you care, you shouldn't care.
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Bismarck.Gael said: »
Ya for the 2 first nukes when you will hit Enmity Douse, but guess what, on the 2 next nuke, the blm will be killed by the NM because he has to much enmity, while the automaton can nuke w/o wait the time that tank need to build a minimum of hate. That mean start to nuke from 100% of Mob's HP.
Of course i'm not comparing the 2 jobs like you did cause for me blm is so much usefull (since it's not a dd onry, and because you need to proc all weakness you can), but you have a very very wrong idea of pup. The advantage on DOT dmg is far away of what you said, because of MP and hate, even with Enmity Douse.
This is not an accurate statement, and its getting old rly. I am on BLM all the time, and I nuke the hell out of mobs, and I RARELY have to use emnity douse. There is such a thing as emnity down gear, as well as...hate management. And in abyssea, emnity down atmas ..MM primarily. Just saying that Blms go out there and use 2 nukes > emnity douse > 2 nukes > dead blm is an insult to blms everywhere. It doesn't happen.
Personally, when it comes to pup, I know they can deal out a lot of damage, but I would rather put our chances of success in the hands of actual people, instead of the Puppet AI.
Cerberus.Wojo said: »
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
Lakshmi.Eyrhika said: »
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
So no one would even consider a BLM frame PUP as an additional source of damage is what I'm gathering from this?
not over a blm.
Pretty much. For ONE nuke, yeah you can beat a BLM by a tiny margin. But guess what? Soon as that Blizzard5 lands, time to start casting Thunder 5 while your auto sits there waiting on its timer. It isn't one nuke that wins a fight, its the total damage, and a BLM will handily neat a pup.
...
Ice Maneuverx3
Deploy
-wait for nuke to go off-
Deactivate
Activate
Repeat.
Biggest wait between each maxed out nuke is 1min. Just to inform ya. Which is also what I said in the OP; that Deactivating after each nuke resets the recast timer and clears all hate.
the AF3 body must really help with overload, cuz you'd hafto wait a while before.
Oh, defiantly. AF+1 gloves, Buffoon's Collar +1 and Empy +2 makes Overload a thing of the past. And cooldown is handy too I guess.
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Personally, when it comes to pup, I know they can deal out a lot of damage, but I would rather put our chances of success in the hands of actual people, instead of the Puppet AI.
Forcing the automaton to do what you want is easy on BLM frame since you're Deactivating every minute. The only one with a huge AI problem is WHM frame; to which I say you should never replace a WHM with a WHM frame for most anything other than soloing. That's just common sense.
BLM AI is fine. It does Aspir a bit early for some PUP's tastes, but Deactivate resets MP to full so you never have a MP problem.
If you're not using Enmity Douse in an elongated fight, you're playing improperly. You can reduce your CE through whatever equipment you want, but it isn't going to stop it from building.
The age-old sentiment that "good BLM know how to manage their enmity" is a crock of ***. It takes a trivial amount of damage to cap your CE, and VE is capped after two spells or less.
Speaking of crocks of ***, yes, PUP is nowhere near as bad of a DD as people make it out to be, and it certainly isn't miles behind BLM in a serious setting, but regardless of what screenshots you want to post of individual spells, BLM is better, before even considering the ulterior utility it brings to the table.
Edit: And people really need to learn how to take advantage of the THF laying around most fights. Collaborator is a godsend.
The age-old sentiment that "good BLM know how to manage their enmity" is a crock of ***. It takes a trivial amount of damage to cap your CE, and VE is capped after two spells or less.
Speaking of crocks of ***, yes, PUP is nowhere near as bad of a DD as people make it out to be, and it certainly isn't miles behind BLM in a serious setting, but regardless of what screenshots you want to post of individual spells, BLM is better, before even considering the ulterior utility it brings to the table.
Edit: And people really need to learn how to take advantage of the THF laying around most fights. Collaborator is a godsend.
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Quote:
This is not an accurate statement, and its getting old rly. I am on BLM all the time, and I nuke the hell out of mobs, and I RARELY have to use emnity douse. There is such a thing as emnity down gear, as well as...hate management. And in abyssea, emnity down atmas ..MM primarily. Just saying that Blms go out there and use 2 nukes > emnity douse > 2 nukes > dead blm is an insult to blms everywhere. It doesn't happen.
Personally, when it comes to pup, I know they can deal out a lot of damage, but I would rather put our chances of success in the hands of actual people, instead of the Puppet AI.
Personally, when it comes to pup, I know they can deal out a lot of damage, but I would rather put our chances of success in the hands of actual people, instead of the Puppet AI.
The only reason you dont take hate on blm is that you dont over nuke, that mean you kill your own dps to not have hate (and i understand, there is nothing more stupid that a blm who can not manage his hate at least when the Enmity douse timer is down).
But that doesnt change what you said, and my answer to you.
Again, i'm not saying that pup > blm or blm > pup (even if for me blm > pup), but in term of dmg only, the things you said are 200% wrong
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
If you're not using Enmity Douse in an elongated fight, you're playing improperly. You can reduce your CE through whatever equipment you want, but it isn't going to stop it from building.
The age-old sentiment that "good BLM know how to manage their enmity" is a crock of ***. It takes a trivial amount of damage to cap your CE, and VE is capped after two spells or less.
Speaking of crocks of ***, yes, PUP is nowhere near as bad of a DD as people make it out to be, and it certainly isn't miles behind BLM in a serious setting, but regardless of what screenshots you want to post of individual spells, BLM is better, before even considering the ulterior utility it brings to the table.
Edit: And people really need to learn how to take advantage of the THF laying around most fights. Collaborator is a godsend.
The age-old sentiment that "good BLM know how to manage their enmity" is a crock of ***. It takes a trivial amount of damage to cap your CE, and VE is capped after two spells or less.
Speaking of crocks of ***, yes, PUP is nowhere near as bad of a DD as people make it out to be, and it certainly isn't miles behind BLM in a serious setting, but regardless of what screenshots you want to post of individual spells, BLM is better, before even considering the ulterior utility it brings to the table.
Edit: And people really need to learn how to take advantage of the THF laying around most fights. Collaborator is a godsend.
I never said I don't use Emnity Douse in an elongated fight, did I? I don't need an emnity lesson, thanks anyways. I DO use a thf laying around most fights, thanks.
@Gael: You actually weren't talking to me, I was just responding to your emnity douse claims. So I wasn't saying anything that was "200% wrong"
So sad how PUPs and SCHs are constantly trying to prove themselves. Like a proud special ed student.
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Shiva.Viciousss said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
If you're not using Enmity Douse in an elongated fight, you're playing improperly. You can reduce your CE through whatever equipment you want, but it isn't going to stop it from building.
The age-old sentiment that "good BLM know how to manage their enmity" is a crock of ***. It takes a trivial amount of damage to cap your CE, and VE is capped after two spells or less.
Speaking of crocks of ***, yes, PUP is nowhere near as bad of a DD as people make it out to be, and it certainly isn't miles behind BLM in a serious setting, but regardless of what screenshots you want to post of individual spells, BLM is better, before even considering the ulterior utility it brings to the table.
Edit: And people really need to learn how to take advantage of the THF laying around most fights. Collaborator is a godsend.
The age-old sentiment that "good BLM know how to manage their enmity" is a crock of ***. It takes a trivial amount of damage to cap your CE, and VE is capped after two spells or less.
Speaking of crocks of ***, yes, PUP is nowhere near as bad of a DD as people make it out to be, and it certainly isn't miles behind BLM in a serious setting, but regardless of what screenshots you want to post of individual spells, BLM is better, before even considering the ulterior utility it brings to the table.
Edit: And people really need to learn how to take advantage of the THF laying around most fights. Collaborator is a godsend.
I never said I don't use Emnity Douse in an elongated fight, did I? I don't need an emnity lesson, thanks anyways. I DO use a thf laying around most fights, thanks.
@Gael: You actually weren't talking to me, I was just responding to your emnity douse claims. So I wasn't saying anything that was "200% wrong"
You quite plainly said you rarely use it.
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