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Saber Dance and Gear
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-14 02:08:10
Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »It's a good mainhand if you don't have Twashtar, decent as an offhand but other options are likely better.
The main problem with DA Para is its delay. It has high damage, so it is a great main-hand if you do not have Twashtar, but if you do have Twashtar, you want something with lower delay in the off-hand. From what I have read STR Kila, Store TP Fusetto, and TP Bonus Fusetto (works if off-handed) are decent options. Not sure what is "best" though. Mostly personal preference. Before anyone mentions OA2-4 as a good choice, OA2-4 is a waste. Low damage and gets super gimped by Saber Dance. except kilas and fusettos aren't rank 5 Is wrank/fstr your new stat fixation? not really D: i've always been for having a rank 5 weapon on your main hand He was talking about offhands though.
I understand about the delay being a bit higher but wouldn't the higher base dmg plus the fact that it adds 10% DA still make it out parse the other daggers in terms of dmg? The delay isn't ridiculously higher than the Kilas and the 10% extra chance to double attack seems like it would destroy +20 attack.
I also understand that the 200TP Rudra's (from fusetto) is a lot better than 100TP Rudra's but does that really outweigh the lower dmg from melee? Base damage on the offhand affects less than half of your TP phase damage (higher base damage + ODD at least part of the time on mainhand) and a very small portion of your WS damage (one hit only, that being a 1 fTP hit on a decently high fTP WS that will often be forced to crit on the first hit only, devaluing all subsequent hits even more). Attack is a pretty strong stat for DNC given that we neither TP nor WS in a whole lot of it, as is STR since we're unlikely to have capped fSTR outside Abyssea (possibly even inside depending on race/merits). When you add in how devalued DA is with Saber Dance and gear these days, it falls back into the pack a bit.
 Quetzalcoatl.Dawnn
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By Quetzalcoatl.Dawnn 2011-09-14 02:32:42
Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »sleight kukri
best off hand ever, especially for twatwasher
i see your sleight kukri and raise you a cinquedea
these used to be THE THING back in 75 days >.>
how do they fare now against STR kilas or TP bonus?
i mean i could see them being useful for a low delay/haste build but with dual marches, haste, and saber dance is it even really worth it?
サーバ: Sylph
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By Sylph.Citrelautame 2011-09-14 02:37:37
im just curious in over all damage, is the DA+10% dagger > occ att twice > occ att 2-4x? id imagine it varies so mainly speaking in abby where dealing 250ish per swing on normal mobs and 3k evisc, my friend and i have been wanting to duo these daggers (1 for my thf 1 for her dnc) for pure DD output but have been torn on which is the best option
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-14 02:57:01
well i saw this
It's a good mainhand if you don't have Twashtar
The main problem with DA Para is its delay.
He was talking about offhands though.
so i figured he was borked about mainhanding it as well
サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-14 02:57:53
Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »sleight kukri
best off hand ever, especially for twatwasher
i see your sleight kukri and raise you a cinquedeanu uh! that 6 less delay means more time poking with your AM hand!
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
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By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-09-14 02:58:08
I rave with my daggers all the time, too.
サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-14 03:15:45
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
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By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-09-14 03:19:01
i'd mainhand that
except ternary'd still suck
サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-14 03:26:12
maybe SE is saying dnc needs to get back in the kitchen and make one of these
 Ragnarok.Hevans
サーバ: Ragnarok
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Posts: 15273
By Ragnarok.Hevans 2011-09-14 03:28:25
Quetzalcoatl.Dawnn said: »Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »sleight kukri
best off hand ever, especially for twatwasher
i see your sleight kukri and raise you a cinquedea
these used to be THE THING back in 75 days >.>
how do they fare now against STR kilas or TP bonus?
i mean i could see them being useful for a low delay/haste build but with dual marches, haste, and saber dance is it even really worth it?
no, no it is not. which makes my countless solos of aynuy-kasey absolutely pointless. thanks SE.
Ragnarok.Hevans
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2011-09-14 03:30:57
Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »maybe SE is saying dnc needs to get back in the kitchen and make one of these
i imagine with all that fine knife work it would be something more like...
 Lakshmi.ByrthVIP
サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-09-14 06:35:04
Did this thread get bombed or something, or is Hevans just making up quotes?
The main reason I have trouble figuring out what a TP Bonus Fusetto is worth is because of ODD and self-skillchains. Without it, Rudra's is weaker than Evisceration and quite a bit weaker than Dancing Edge. With it, Rudra's is about as strong as Evisceration and a little weaker than Dancing Edge.
Does the ODD push it above just using a STR kila and spamming DE when Climactic isn't up? I don't know! If TP Bonus Fusetto would also increase AM to AMII, I would think so for sure.
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Carbuncle.Asymptotic
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By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-09-14 06:39:47
Byrth, who gave you permission to not know something :|
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Ragnarok.Hevans
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2011-09-14 06:42:12
Did this thread get bombed or something, or is Hevans just making up quotes?
The main reason I have trouble figuring out what a TP Bonus Fusetto is worth is because of ODD and self-skillchains. Without it, Rudra's is weaker than Evisceration and quite a bit weaker than Dancing Edge. With it, Rudra's is about as strong as Evisceration and a little weaker than Dancing Edge.
Does the ODD push it above just using a STR kila and spamming DE when Climactic isn't up? I don't know! If TP Bonus Fusetto would also increase AM to AMII, I would think so for sure.
now you're gonna have to build 300 tp with str kila > rs > dagger swap > reverse > rs and swap again til aftermath is off =(
サーバ: Odin
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2011-09-14 06:44:11
I know smiting blow atma/tp bonus moonshade doesn't increase ukon's aftermath so I would likely think that tp bonus dagger wouldn't either
Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-09-14 06:47:44
Did this thread get bombed or something, or is Hevans just making up quotes?
The main reason I have trouble figuring out what a TP Bonus Fusetto is worth is because of ODD and self-skillchains. Without it, Rudra's is weaker than Evisceration and quite a bit weaker than Dancing Edge. With it, Rudra's is about as strong as Evisceration and a little weaker than Dancing Edge.
Does the ODD push it above just using a STR kila and spamming DE when Climactic isn't up? I don't know! If TP Bonus Fusetto would also increase AM to AMII, I would think so for sure.
now you're gonna have to build 300 tp with str kila > rs > dagger swap > reverse > rs and swap again til aftermath is off =(
Haha, it would be nice if it were an option! Changing weapons drops AM though.
Also, I know that TP Bonus doesn't increase AM level, but it would be nice if it did.
Ragnarok.Hevans
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By Ragnarok.Hevans 2011-09-14 06:48:05
I know smiting blow atma/tp bonus moonshade doesn't increase ukon's aftermath so I would likely think that tp bonus dagger wouldn't either
he's not saying that it increases, he's saying that if it did he knows it would out do str kila and de. what he's not sure of is if the damage output is better with the tp bonus dagger and rudra's.
サーバ: Odin
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2011-09-14 06:57:55
I know smiting blow atma/tp bonus moonshade doesn't increase ukon's aftermath so I would likely think that tp bonus dagger wouldn't either he's not saying that it increases, he's saying that if it did he knows it would out do str kila and de. what he's not sure of is if the damage output is better with the tp bonus dagger and rudra's. ah, misinterpreting things at 5am :/ soz
Fenrir.Yuriki
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By Fenrir.Yuriki 2011-09-14 18:31:12
Quetzalcoatl.Dawnn said: »Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »sleight kukri
best off hand ever, especially for twatwasher
i see your sleight kukri and raise you a cinquedea
these used to be THE THING back in 75 days >.>
how do they fare now against STR kilas or TP bonus?
i mean i could see them being useful for a low delay/haste build but with dual marches, haste, and saber dance is it even really worth it?
no, no it is not. which makes my countless solos of aynuy-kasey absolutely pointless. thanks SE.
I loved those weps! I only just now tossed my sleight in order to make room for newer equip. Made me Q Q for a minute.
Necro Bump Detected!
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 Ragnarok.Haorhu
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By Ragnarok.Haorhu 2011-12-28 22:51:41
praxidikai occ.Twice.and MORE /coruscanti THF !
Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2011-12-28 23:12:34
praxidikai occ.Twice.and MORE /coruscanti THF !
Worst Necro Bump today.
サーバ: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-12-28 23:16:44
praxidikai occ.Twice.and MORE /coruscanti THF ! 
Necro Bump Detected!
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Lakshmi.Mrfrodo
サーバ: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Mrfrodo 2012-02-08 14:07:14
interesting question since saber supposively overides the double attack trait http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Saber_Dance
does that mean both /war and brutal earring wouldnt get you anything DA wise with saber up?
Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-02-08 14:10:56
/WAR DA doesn't stack, but gear does additively.
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Lakshmi.Mrfrodo
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By Lakshmi.Mrfrodo 2012-02-08 14:30:53
i figured percent gear does, but since brutal enhances double attack trait i wasnt so sure on it.
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2012-02-08 14:38:53
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サーバ: Phoenix
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By Phoenix.Lillicarnage 2012-02-08 14:54:30
/WAR DA doesn't stack, but gear does additively. 
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Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-02-08 15:20:36
My guess is that Saber Dance grants an invisible DA trait and sets it to whatever value it's at, so it would be like being on BLU, setting DA (7%), then changing your subjob to WAR (10%)
So my TP set, w/o my dagger, includes 13% Double Attack (3% from Atheling, 2% from Twilight Belt, 5% from Brutal, 3% from Epona's). I off hand the Parazonium +2 that gives Double Attack +10. This leaves me with 23% DA at all times.
From what I understand DA caps at 50%. So while using Saber Dance some of the gear is being wasted, for a certain amount of time.
Before ranting, I'm assuming that Saber Dance works as 50% inc. for the first minute, 40% for the second, 30% for the third, 20% for the fourth and 10% fifth. This is how I first read that SD worked so please correct me if I am wrong. I know that there has been additional testing since then but I figured you guys would know best.
So assuming that the above is true, during the first minute of SD I'd have 73% DA which caps down to 50%. During the second minute I'd have 63%, and the third minute would be 53%.
Twilight belt and Epona's both serve another purpose (haste, triple attack) so I don't see those as viable options for swapping out; however, the Para+2, Brutal, and Atheling could all be swapped out for better gear during certain minutes of SD. The question is, what?
Without Para+2, Brutal, and Atheling, I'm left with 5% DA. For the first minute of SD you could replace the Para+2, Brutal, and Atheling for other equip to optimize dmg while still capping DA. For the second minute you'd need another 5% to keep cap so you'd put the Brutal back in. During the third minute you'd need another 10% to keep cap so the Para+2 would go back in, and from then out you'd put the Atheling back in and keep everything on until you reapply SD.
I was thinking that a fire Kila+2 would be a fine substitution for the Para+2 during the first two minutes. What about replacements for Brutal and Atheling? I would assume an attack ring in place of Brutal but is there anything better for Atheling?
So I suppose my questions are: what are the best replacements for Para+2, Brutal, and Atheling during certain minutes of SD? Is the old assumption of how SD works true? Am I being too ridiculous with my gear?
Bonus question: 10% Double Attack w/45 dmg and 211 delay vs. STR+9, Attack+20, 44 dmg/190 delay. Which wins for overall damage over time?
Thanks guys! You guys rock for elitest questions like this.
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