DNC303 - Finishing Moves

The introduction of gear from the 85-90 update and some recent tweeks and changes have me reconsidering how we use Finishing Moves for Damage, and I'd like some input. This thread will mostly discuss ideals, so explanations like "I don't have AF3+2 hands" are tolerable when asking for advice but not when arguing about ideals.

Options as I see them, complete with their enhancing gear:
Building Flourish - Consumes up to 3 FMs for varying results. Effectively Berserk for one WS if used with 2+ FMs. Crit rate and Berserk if used with 3+ FMs.
Climactic Flourish - Consumes all FMs and forces 1 more FM than that to crit with Damage+20%.
Striking Flourish - Consumes 2 FMs and forces the next swing to Double Attack with a 50% Crit rate.
Wild Flourish - Consumes 2 FMs and "primes the target for skillchain." Can miss, and only works with level 1 properties.
Reverse Flourish - Consumes all FMs and returns TP based on the linked formula. 26/40/57/77/100 TP with 1~5 FMs. Useful for making self-skillchains, and generally considered the most efficient way to use FMs.


At 75 the simplest, most efficient, and most reliable way to turn FMs into damage was just to go Pyrrhic -> 4~5FM Reverse -> Evisceration -> Darkness. Committing all of your FMs to Reverse Flourish meant that no other DD Flourishes were considered. At 90 the game is different because A) we have Presto and B) we have AF3+2 hands and C) Flourishes III exists.

Valuing Reverse Flourish at 90:
Opening Weaponskill -> Reverse -> Closing Weaponskill -> Darkness (30 Skillchain Bonus with AF3+2 hands).
Generally you close with your stronger weaponskill (Closing Weaponskill), but you could have spent your initial 100TP to open with it. Therefore, Reverse Flourish is worth Opening Weaponskill + 1.3*Closing Weaponskill.

However, it's entirely possible to self-skillchain with just 3 FMs these days as long as you don't use too many JAs between the first and second WS. WS TP return + 2 attack rounds with Saber Dance + 57 TP generally will get you the 100 you need for the second WS in time to use it and self-skillchain. With a little timing and spell Haste (no marches required), it's possible to self-skillchain reliably this way. It's slower than a 5 FM reverse though, so it's a liability in party play.

Leaving NFR out of it, how do we use the extra 2FMs best? These are the problems I see:
1) Building and Wild are on the same recast as Reverse, and Wild has a longer recast than it should.
2) If you spend the other two FMs on something like Building or Climactic, you're going to have to be buffing the opening rather than closing weaponskill.
3) Anything that you do has to offset the 3 seconds you lose by using Step + Flourish.

At the moment, my best solution is to go Step -> Building -> TP more -> Presto -> Step -> WS -> 2x round -> Reverse -> WS. It runs into Problem 2, but I think sticking more JAs between the two WS would make the skillchain unreliable with only Haste and I'm not sure the attack and extra defense down offset the 3 seconds I spend on Step -> Building.

Personally after the Climactic Flourish update all other flourishes are worthless, for me at least.

Before the update i never really used anything other than the Pyrric > Reverse > Evisceration combo because i couldn't justify the weak sauce the other flourishes gave. To me Building Flourish was MEH, Wild Flourish was only good for breaking a latent, Climactic Flourish was weak for Evisceration (would have been great if it applied to all hits), and Striking Flourish was disappointing.

When I'm burning books and the mobs are weak I'll build finishing moves to 5 with steps and save Reverse Flourish to be able to Rudra's Storm on 2 mobs which pretty much 1-2 shots them (depends on their level).

Harder stuff like NM's I'll still use steps to build to 5 and use Climactic before my Evisceration > Reverse > Rudra's combo (still have difficulty getting darkness with 2 Rudra's, perhaps I'm just not seeing it with the gear changes). This way Climactic applies to both Evisceration and Rudra's and if i happen to get a stray hit in between the skill chain i don't lose Climactic before Rudra's goes off.

Climactic is cool, but Climactic -> Reverse means you've spent at least 8 FMs and probably overkilled whatever you're fighting. I pretty much save it for NMs.

As far as your difficulty getting Rudra's -> Rudra's to work, how much STP and which daggers do you use? I'm using AF3+2 head/feet, Rajas, and Brutal. I think I generally need 6 hits, and Saber Dance helps me out.

the issue I was having with rudra's > rudra's was not being able to see the darkness sc animation or chat log, or even hear it. What fixed it for me was using blink me not. Now Im able to see both.

i have the same for STP (af3+2 head/feet, rajas, brutal). For dagger's i use Daka+2 and fusetto+2 (TP+100).

i actually have a macro for darkness, but the rudra's > rudra's i dont see go off (again possibly the gear switching)

for the macro i have
1. /ja "Climactic Flourish" <me> <wait 2>
2. /ws "Rudra's Storm" <t> <wait 4>
3. /ja "No Foot Rise" <me> <wait 1>
4. /equip hands "Charis Bangles +2" <wait 1>
5. /ja "Reverse Flourish" <me> <wait 2>
6. /ws "Rudra's Storm" <t>

of course before all this i have 5 finish moves. Im sure i would pull it off if i didnt bother with the climactic in the begining and removed the NFR, but where is the fun in that?

i have similar for pyrric > evis and evis > rudra's which do work.

Also using 10 FM's isnt really an issue for me as i said before to me the other flourishes just don't seem up to snuff now. Not like Presto doesnt solve the FM loss problem.

And i'll have to try blink me not again (i didnt like that i couldnt see gear swaps) to see if i can see it go off.

Hopefully when they re-adjust the merits hopefully they enhance building flourish more than a crappy 1%. if it was something like 3% or better i would consider using it.

I do 5 FMs -> Presto -> Climactic -> Box -> Rudra's -> Reverse -> Rudra's when I'm going around killing NMs in Dynamis - Sandy. That way if Box misses I can just turn around. No TP moves means no charm!

Also, I don't write anything out like that anymore. I've re-worked Yugl's MNK Spellcast XML for Dancer and I'm going to try and troubleshoot it tonight. If it works, it should be a lot better than my old one.

hmmm, might have to give that a shot. I always find myself short on TP if i have less than 4 FM. Perhaps i should frequent the Sabre dance more often to help with that.

Speaking of DNC spellcast .xml's, anybody mind sending me theirs? Would love to take ideas/suggestions off yours to add to mine. Not very spellcast saavy, usually have my buddy do it for me. Email is syn6769@yahoo.

@Autobot i know how you feel about not seeing gear swaps. I stopped using silence plug in jus so i could see it happening ><.

Aikon and others really mine is here.Its so i can be really lazy and wouldnt mind some pointers form anyone. my waltzes step down if you dont need a curing waltz 5 to 4 to 3 so i only have 1 macro for waltz. Theres other stuffs, but im sure im missing stuff as well
*edit. id prefer any pointers

Give me two days and I'll have a pretty comprehensive DNC XML done, working off Yugl's MNK XML from BG. It's not going to be the kind of thing that you can pull apart and borrow from (or even read) easily though, so I'd like to work most of the kinks out of it before I give it to anyone.

Keeping up Saber Dance and getting a little lucky is pretty necessary for getting the TP with 3 FMs. You need about 6 hits worth of TP to make up the difference, so you need to DA twice (or TA once) in two attack rounds. Activating Saber Dance immediately before your first Rudra's is a great way to boost your odds, but I do it a lot of the time anyway.

thats awesome byrth, i just reformatted and lost all mine D:

I have a fairly comprehensive DNC xml, but I'm anxious to see yours!

Heh, well I wouldn't get too excited. It took me a few hours to trace all the variables and stuff and figure out how Yugl's Spellcast works, and mine isn't going to be that much simpler.

Currently, the main benefits I'm finding over my spellcast are:
1) It's standardized with Yugl's Include and AutoExec files
2) It's more redundant than mine was, so I end up wearing the wrong set less often.
3) I like the syntax he uses better than my own, though I don't actually use most of the options at the moment. For instance, he gives an option to change gear based on whether or not you're using Berserk. Realistically on Dancer this really isn't an issue. Unless I'm eating meat with Stalwart's and Berserk, I'm not capping Atk/Def Ratio.

My XML isn't too fancy, the only thing i really have that i find helps me much is my after cast which reads as

<if Buffactive="Fan Dance">
<action type="equip" when="Aftercast" set="Evasion" />
</if>
<else>
<action type="Equip" when="Aftercast" set="melee" />
</else>

Usually if im dealing with Fan Dance I'm not trying to die, hence why I make it throw on my evasion set.

DNC XML
Include/Autoexec

Explaining exactly what everything is doing isn't easily possible, but I've annotated the xml so you should be able to figure out at least what to put where as far as gear goes. If you find any flaws in it, please let me know. At the moment, the one thing I know for sure is that I occasionally Reverse Flourish without AF3+2 hands on for some reason if I've been spamming it.

You will need to download and load Autoexec from the Windower website and put this in your scripts/init.txt file.

Additionally, I recommend adding these to the bind section of the same file:

Please don't underestimate how long it's going to take you to change the gearsets and make them your own, haha. Overall though, I like this one better than my old one.

Are you able to still use // on binds? I know they screwed it for macros and you need to use /console

// is just comments in the script. The ones I listed work, and I copy/pasted them straight from my own init.txt

Just looking through your XML Byrth and I have a question and comment.

First off i notice you use the Desultor Tassets for ur curing waltzes and aeolian edge, I'm assuming you are using the Waltz Tp cost -5, and MAB+4? I need to redo my pants as well and that seems like a good idea.

Second you are using your curing waltz set for healing waltz. I used to do this but i ended up making a separate set for healing waltz because all you really need is the head piece for the timer and (in your case) the legs. I found this more useful than switching out all gear especially when I'm tanking an NM and don't want to lose shadows because all my evasion gear is swapped out for my curing gear when, to my knowledge, chr doesn't affect the potency of healing waltz anyway.

Yeah, I'm using TP Cost -5/MAB+4. And you can use whatever you want for Healing Waltz, just remove the "baseset=Curing Waltz" part and put only Anwig and Desultor Tassets into the set.

This will be my first time using include. That being said, a few questions:

1. Do I have to make a folder for include?
2. If so, where? (obviously the include xml will go inside that folder)
3. Does the include file have to have a certain name, or can it be "whateverIdecidetocallit.xml"? (As long as my rule for the include matches that name, of course)

Leave the include file named "include.xml" and put it into your Spellcast folder.

Thanks, got it all working nicely =]

Sweet, nice to hear it! The only issue I've had so far is that it lags me a little in Dynamis, and I'm trying to figure out why. Away from the game for the weekend though. Let me know if you find anything else!

Yeah I'm going to be testing this tonight/tomorrow after i scrub through all the gear stuffs.

But to be honest, at this point I'm just glad I'm able to play FFXI at all. (I moved to South Korea, and SE blocks all IP's from here... go go proxies!)