Samurai Tanking

the lack of trolling thus far is really admirable.

As for tanking with SAM, 5/5 third eye will help you more than 5/5 meditate. Having a 50 second non-seigan third eye is really good for some boss moves, preventing you from having to jump into a PDT set, ruining your 5-hit. In that regards, I'd suggest third eye (note: this is only the better option if you are gonna be the sole tank ~ SAM+WHM situations perhaps).

SAM is good as a tank in that it can be tactical based on what the boss does. Chloris for example, hundred fists -> pop seigan and watch the counters go. tactical non-Seigan Third Eye as already mentioned. Blade Bash on epic casts/ja's.

Outside abyssea, stick with /WAR as voke is super useful for keeping hate in moments where the mobs turns toward your mage. This can happen to any DD at any time... and with positioning ruined, its hard to WS for hate really quick. Alas I've ALWAYS been against SAM/NIN.

Just be responsive/aware of the boss you're fighting and you'll be pro.

Invest in the best PDT set you can. for your MDT set... get MDT to 25%, then stack MDB.

would having some counter gear in that be helpful too?

I tanked a bird party some years ago in Haubergeon and did better than the paladin we had for ten minutes before.
After an hour, I gained 4 parry levels and SIXTY(60!) evasion levels.
I want to return to FFXI, but...ugh, I just don't feel like it's worth it.

@ Entourage

Reading into your post, it seems you'd suggest tanking in Hasso until an oshit moment?

this runs into the same problem as a PDT set. its okay as long as it doesn't ruin your x-hit, but chances are it will.

Another thing to take into account is the marginal increase in chance to counter because of gear. Is it worth it to ditch DD gear for that little chance.. doubtful. PDT is nice because its guaranteed, and only used for Boss TP moves really.

Counter gear can be used for an o-***macro when you're near death (earrings come to mind - a gear slot thats hard to get PDT in).

Counter doesn't help with TP moves, which is the primary use for PDT gear. It has some uses, such as (hopefully) getting Ichi off in a bad situation, but it won't necessarily be worth using in the same situations.

what Nightfyre said.

and yea always use hasso, only time I would use Seigan is hundred fists or if I need to give my mage time to recover.

Lots of people are talking about "ruining your 5 hits when you switch to PDT/MDT". While it is perfectly logical, it is not what happen when you actually tank things.
I might shock a few people that weren't used to tank things like Odin/Sarameya/younameit back at 75 but you actually get TP when you take damage. I think it's not hard to understand what a DA/TA can do for you. Did I mention AOEs? And obviously, those are the only times when you'll need to switch to PDT or MDT. There is no loss unless the mob misses you but if you tank relevant things, it won't happen.

If you have to pop your PDT set, it's for a reason and the idea of "***, i'll miss 2-3 TP on the next hit" should barely cross your mind as there is very low chance that it will actually happen. I think the only place a PDT set is going to ruin your hit build is on things like Salvage floor X or other "low level" things. They will miss you/they are too slow to make up for your speed.

Tanking as SAM has always been split between:

1) Having the best defensive gear for any situation. As said previously, a fire set is a very good start, PDT/MDT sets are mendatory and are very easy to get nowadays, no more hair pulling (unless you want to hit 50% PDT in the best possible way + extra, which is another story).

2) Being very aggresive in your playstyle. The more damage the better so, in my opinion, merit/gear should be toward offense and only offense. Third Eye merits sounded cute at some point but I found myself poping Hasso here and there (Tiamat for example) and while at 75 a few seconds on Third Eye helped greatly, I didn't see any content in Abyssea justifying riding PDT full time and watching over TE recast. Outside Abyssea, other than Voidwatch, nothing would require TE merits.

That being said, a lot of your playstyle and gearing has to do with the people you play with. You can shoot for a lower MDT for example if you are sure to have a fully merited Shellra V on you, things like that. If the people you play with aren't familiar with SAM tanking or are somewhat against it, it might not work that well, too.

There Can Only Be ONE!!!!!!!

Just updated the OP with all the information you guys have given me. Thanks to everyone who responded in a serious manner. If you see anything wrong in my post or merely disagree with a part of it, please respond and add to the discussion.

about Nanatstupidlongname, hasso-zanshin rate was tested and found to be regular zanshin rate/4. So 100% would be 25% zanshin procs on hasso presumably.

Nana needs to be tested instead of presumed, and I'm more curious about the Seigan-Counter rate and if it mirrors the Hasso-DA rate.

If you used a Nana while tanking, you wouldn't get hate.

Aye, Masa for hate, but in situations where hate isn't a problem, such as duoing with a WHM, other weapons may improve your survivability. If Nana did function as presumed, you would have a base 35% counter rate. Sub MNK and that jumps up another 10%. That high of a Counter rate + Seigan/Third Eye and you're a blink tank to be reckoned with.

I assume Nana does not have that effect, however, as it'd be too amazing, but it warrants testing.

Pandemonium Warden's atma (which also gives 100% Zanshin) was used to check the proc rate of Zanshin during Hasso and it worked as expected. I would assume that using Nanatsusayotachi or Hell's Guardian would indeed give the desired effect of increasing your counter rate during Seigan.

... So with that Atma, Nana and /MNK, you would have 70% counter rate... that seems a little broken.

Nothing out of the ordinary for MNK. You're still going to be killing slowly, so it's kinda pointless. I would rather take a WAR/SAM who isn't using Seigan over some SAM/MNK thinking they're worth something.

Well, not quite. Since Zanshin rate caps at 100%, using Nana and Hell's Guardian simultaneously would be pointless. The aforementioned test actually had 155% in Zanshin rate, yet DA still proc'd only 25% of the time (100%/4).

Out of curiosity do the seigan-zanshin counters give tp? I doubt it but again, just curious.

Figured there was a flaw in there somewhere. So 25% counter is the cap and Nana would be way overkill for that.


It does not.

Didn't read everything in the thread, but I saw enough malarkey in the first dozen posts or so to know some people posting here are simple-minded or incapable of critical thinking. Not too surprising, I suppose.

If you can't tank on SAM, you're doing it wrong. Granted, if you're in a party with a WAR tank (in Abyssea) or a PLD tank (outside Abyssea), then yes, those jobs will "out-tank" you and should be on top of the hate-list. In those cases, why even bother asking about a SAM tank?

So, let's presume that you DON'T have a WAR tank (in Abyssea) or a PLD tank (outside Abyssea). Those are really the only situations were it would be practical to use SAM as a tanking job ...

If you want to tank on SAM, then I absolutely disagree with the OP (as it stands at the time of my post here). You definitely want Third Eye merits more than Meditate merits. Third Eye is unpredictable, yes, but with a properly-enfeebled target, SAM with Seigan up can mitigate a LARGE amount of damage using Third Eye every 25 seconds. And yes, having a fresh Third Eye available every 25-26 seconds, instead of 30 seconds, WILL make a difference.
The Seigan SAM tank is most effective against targets that can be Slowed, don't Double/Triple attack, and don't cast high-damage single-target nukes.

Secondly, a SAM tank has no business subbing NIN or DNC. Utsusemi use is gimped by the excessive recast timer whenever Hasso or Seigan is up. Dancer is a great subjob for solo SAM, but it will seriously limit your ability to maintain hate in a group.

You're almost always going to sub WAR for Provoke, Berserk/Aggressor (for WS chains), Attack/Defense Bonus, and Defender (for use in "oh-sh*t!" situations). In theory, the other subjob that could prove useful is MNK, since SAM/MNK gets a large HP Boost, and a handful of useful traits/abilities including Dodge, Subtle Blow, and Counter.

For gear, I would agree that you'll want a good -PDT% gearset for those moments when you're caught with your pants (or Third Eye) down. However, using that gearset should be the exception rather than the rule. In general, you'll be wearing your standard "TP" gearset, utilizing Haste%+ and Store TP+ to minimize your time between Weapon Skills.

Putting all this to work does take some tactical skill, and if you're unfamiliar with the general concepts of tanking, SAM is definitely not the job of choice to try tanking with training wheels on. You're going to be operating and balancing a lot of Abilities to maximize your hate and mitigate damage-taken on a job that isn't ideally-suited for tanking. But it absolutely can be done, and done quite well.

Another important point is that the mages you're working with need to be familiar with the mechanics of SAM tanking, and not every mage is familiar. WHMs with a SAM tank need to focus their non-cure spells during the 15 seconds right after a fresh Third Eye, and be ready to apply some heavy cures with Afflatus Solace active (and AF3+2 Bliaut) after 15 seconds from the last Third Eye (until the next Third Eye is up). RDM and BLM stunners will want to be in the habit of casting Stun roughly 20-22 seconds after each Third Eye, to buy the SAM a couple seconds of taking no damage just before the next Third Eye is available.

I could go on; if anyone wants further details or has questions, feel free to PM me.

Start off with insulting everyone else in the thread, and not even bother reading it. Always a good way to begin a post.


shocking


Lol what?


You're kidding right? You've never had a single target spell cast on you in which you've found utsusemi to be useful? Sure you have blade bash but that's on a large timer, even larger assuming it's merited at all instead of 5/5 Ikishoten.


>Implying 12 second difference in recast is excessive in exchange for avoiding potential very damaging spells or very harmful status effects such as break.


We call those skillchains, it's pretty hush hush though, you've probably never heard of them

Wolfshadow,
in case you haven't noticed, sometimes I do not care about Users' feelings on an internet forum. If you want warm fuzzies, maybe try the My Little Pony thread. I said I read a chunk of the thread, and there was indeed plenty of garbage posted in the first dozen replies to this OP. If you disagree, fine, but I stand by my comments.

You can "lolwat?" at Third Eye Merits if you want; I'll just "lolwat?" at you in retort. Obviously, if you're playing SAM in its traditional DPS role, Meditate recast merits are the superior choice. However, since we're talking about SAM tanking in this thread, I can tell you based on rational thought and practical experience on SAM that Third Eye merits ARE *definitely* a boon when SAM tanking.

Using SAM as a DPS job and using SAM as a tanking job are two very different tasks, and they require different thinking, and different tactics. Seems to me that's the advice the OP was asking for.

If you want to tank on SAM, you have to balance damage generation with mitigation of damage potentially received.
If you're subbing DNC or NIN, you will not generate adequate damage or enmity to tank.
If you're full-timing Hasso, you will not mitigate adequate damage potentially received to tank.

Your absolute best bet is to sub WAR (or MNK, maybe) and use Seigan/Third Eye as your backbone, maintaining Haste/STP gear mainly, WS and Skillchain frequently, and use -PDT% gear/Defender/Dodge/Blade Bash only for your "oh sh*t!" moments.

Meditate merits > Third Eye merits. No point in gimping your damage for 5? seconds on Third Eye. Which equates to 1, maybe 2 attacks by a random mob, which shouldn't be an issue for your WHM. That being said, that would mitigate a substantial amount of damage over time, but unless you don't have a WHM, up your damage. The faster a mob dies the less damage it will deal, and the lower chance you'll have to make a critical error somewhere in the fight.

On rare occasion I see /nin being useful, especially if you'll have to hold a mob for awhile. (Situational ***is situational)


Other than that, I agree with Elana.

Elana, I don't think you said anything that I didn't already say, but gj? actually re-reading through your post makes me think you copies me.

<Loki> Stops copies me!

read page 2 lol

I didn't read your post before writing mine.
Afterwards, I did go back and +1 your post though.