Empyrean Vs. Relic

how much time have you spent on bg

I really hope this thread gets back on track. This was interesting.

yeah

well

YOU'RE INTERESTING

so there

I just browse BG when I have technical questions about a job. Although I have never posted which is odd for as long as I have been playing.

So yea I know how he twists things, it just amazes me how every answer is blu.

He's always been good at that. That's what he's known for! D:

Rerail! Ok so for a job like say War, I'd say the Empy is FAR beyond that of Bravura, even with the bonus to Metatron. Ukko's is just too OP in the case of that job, I think.
And has anybody actually mathed out Raggy over Calad? I'm interested in seeing how it stacks up. I know Scourge isn't quite as strong as Torcleaver.. but dat aftermath... and dat crit bonusIV...

One really nice thing about BLU is, is they can Diffusion Triumphant Roar and beef up the DDs the more rawr. Me Gusta.

My friend(Kaerin) did the math and if I remember right, the crit rate and accuracy(together) had to increase dmg by 17.5% to make rag>calad. The actual WS scourge would beat torcleaver, but due to current gear(or really, lack there of) the ideal sets came out with torcleaver slightly ahead. This is word of mouth, but I trust his math/conclusions 100%.

Edit: double checked with him about results.

But the giant gold great sword with the jewels in it, looks entirely too badass compared to lolpurple and red!

In case I phrased that poorly, thats actually saying rag can likely beat cala in DoT. under capped attack you need about 28% crit rate from aftermath/increase hits IV to cover that 17% dmg. with less attack, I believe that number goes down. Also every 2 acc you get thats not above cap will be increasing hitrate and dmg by 1%. Anything worth half its pixels in salt is likely going to take more dmg from rag than calad.

Well way thanks man.

ahh ok.. so there we have it! Gold > purple/red!!!! lol

While the rest of this sounds correct (the general idea that Ragnarok is most suited to low-hitrate low-cRatio situations due to acc+35 and a large portion of DoT coming from crits, situations Caladbolg is not built for), I'm rather curious how they came to this conclusion. Scourge does have a higher total WSC% but 33% more WSC is not 33% more damage; it's going to be less than half that in practice outside Abyssea and Torcleaver is ahead by a good ~25% (more/less depending on DA hitrate) when comparing fTP/WSDMG+ alone, even disregarding Caladbolg's ability to capitalize on TP bonus Moonshade Earring.

I'm not sure how much of a difference there is in WS dmg between Ukko's Fury and Metatron Torment inside and outside of abyssea but The dps IS higher on Bravura 90 over Ukonvasara 90. Not to mention the huge increase in survivability would add some extra DOT. I have neither but from seeing in game/talking to ppl/reading various sites tbh I'm starting to think Bravura 90 wins(especially outside of abys) unless all you'd like to do is epeen.

Insight from ppl who have one or both of those?

I think Kaerin fell to sleep, but if he gets on I could ask him to log on and post his reasoning. Are you counting that torcleaver is ahead by 25% before counting scourge's dmg bonus for being lvl 90? Could possibly be where the difference gets made up?

Edit:
I have been thinking about mathing ukon vs. bravura for a while now(read: wanting to math since I have about 14000 currency worth of gil and am about to start buying stuff for it) so I may have those numbers soon.

Bravura only has better white damage in hitrate-capped situations if you assume that STR+15 is not adding fSTR or attack and ignore the relative frequencies of each aftermath (Ukon's will proc much more frequently). Ukko's is still a good deal stronger than Metatron too. It may have some utility vs more evasive NMs and is certainly good for survivability but outside of those situations Ukon is easily the better gaxe. There's plenty of room for both though.

Yes, I accounted for wsdmg+25% on Scourge.

I played with a Bravura War (not 90) before my break, and it didn't impress me one bit inside of Aby. This was before Heros came out, but still. RR dmg wasn't even that stellar on Brav (think it was an 80 brav)

As explained to me:assume 100 of all stats(to make math easy) and 100tp. same str= fstr/attack the same.

tor:60% vit, 4.75
scou: 40/40%chr/mnd, 3, +25% dmg

100*.60*4.75=285 tor
(40+40)*3*1.25=300 scourge

So everything equal scourge is slightly ahead given a pure comparison of the WS at 100tp. The gear then skewed torward torcleaver since it had better options available.

edit:(my conclusions) night's points however are correct, so the winner might not be quite as cut and dry as I previously announced. Still definitally a contender as I think the crit rate is like 30-35%, higher than that max needed to make up for dmg from ODD before counting acc, which enables some leeway between the WSs.

That completely ignores alpha, fSTR (matters insofar as it also contributes to base damage, not assuming different values for each), and weapon base damage.

oh gawd

So what Relics are still even worth it anymore? I've always wanted to work on one, but I dont see any standing out as amazing..

If relics gain an extra weaponskill damage boost at 95, then Amano is going to be freaking ridiculous.

I know a couple amano owners, so will be interesting to see. Im just really bored of SAM atm though, my Masa is in storage now. x.x

Well, besides Amano, there really isn't much. lol
no idea about mandau, kikoku turned into the best offhand, etc etc.

Haha, I don't play Nin enough to justify spending 100m~ on an offhand weapon :P

Apoc > Emp Scythe Amano > Masamune Mandau > Twash Ragnarok > Emp Gs

And finally a good pld has both Aegis and Ochain

Without further additions to Masamune at 95 (beyond just base damage and 5 more strength), Amano will easily beat it.

In near acc capped situations, Masamune 90 still beats Amano, however that edge is lost whenever Amano's acc starts to actually help (as mentioned in Voidwatch). I saw draylo mention he didn't have accuracy problems in VW, which makes me think he's either never done VW, full of ***, or really bad at parsing.

As for other relics:

Aegis annihilates Ochain on just about everything you'd bring Pld for, and though I can't see them going all the way to 50% MDT on Aegis (Since you could then be magic immune), Aegis already makes Pld nearly invincible on harder fights. Ochain still has it's place (newer Mnk type mobs, large groups of mobs, etc), and a good Pld should have both.

Kikoku: Blade Metsu needs a good more boost to catch up with Blade Hi. However, much more potent WS upgrades and/or another WS added in at 95/99 would hurt Kannagi a lot.

Bravura: I've yet to be really impressed with this, when comparing it to Ukon. RR is just crap in all situations compared to Fury, and MT is still lacking as well. I think Ukon will still hold out as the best "DD" weapon for War, even beyond 95, but we'll see.

Spharai: VS looses a lot when you're not at 70-90% crit hit rate, but is still superior to final heaven (at 90). With another WS damage boost and increased counter rate/attack, Spharai should bridge the gap pretty easily.

Excal: Still annhihates Almace in DPS on anything you'd bring Pld for (something that doesn't have paper defense).

Other's will depend on WS damage boosts and what happens to WSs/JAs at 95/99.

The big thing that has me worried for Empyreans in we are nearly guarenteed to get another WS otw to 99. If those WSs are better than Empyrean WSs, then most of the Empyrean weapons will lose a LOT of flavor. Especially if relics can use those new WSs.

So basically, it's best to wait till 95-99 and see what the updates bring, before I decide to go ahead and do one then?

Edit: I did always think Apoc was badass though.

If you think you'll be playing that long.

Or that the game will still be going strong then.