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Abortion
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15066
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-07-07 10:59:04
The thing though is the adoption homes and already have a large number of kids that aren't getting adopted. Adding more kids to that doesn't really help.
Sylph.Ixe
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7081
By Sylph.Ixe 2011-07-07 11:01:01
Sylph.Anjali said: Giving up a child for adoption is another option. There are plenty of couples who can't have kids who will happily adopt a newly born child. There is never much discussion given to this as an alternative in these debates about abortion. Theres the problem :)
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-07-07 11:04:04
Sylph.Anjali said: Giving up a child for adoption is another option. There are plenty of couples who can't have kids who will happily adopt a newly born child. There is never much discussion given to this as an alternative in these debates about abortion.
I believe that putting a child up for adoption is also a choice that can be made by parents who are unable to take care of their offspring but ultimately the mother/father should have a variety of options available to them including abortion.
Adoption agencies would be completely overwhelmed if your only options were to keep the child or place them in the adoption network.
Sylph.Ixe
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7081
By Sylph.Ixe 2011-07-07 11:06:58
Sylph.Anjali said: Oh yeah, I'm not proposing that abortion should never be an option. Just that adoption doesn't seem to be mentioned much... Its costly also
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-07 11:14:17
Sylph.Anjali said: Right but the argument seems to be if someone is not capable of raising a child properly, either through lack of finances or just something to do with their age or personality, their kid will end up in foster care or become a criminal. So abortion is the best option.
All I'm saying is that adoption is also an option :) Whether its expensive and all the other attached matters wasn't really coming into my thoughts... sorry!
from page 2:
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Also adoption option is a joke.
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-07-07 11:24:54
Sylph.Anjali said: Why is it a joke?
Right now the systems have plenty waiting to be adopted. If you don't get scooped up as a baby, odds are you're gonna be stuck in limbo.
People are willing to adopt babies but the farther away you are from birth, the more you're seen as damaged goods.
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-07 11:26:18
Adoption is fine if you can find someone who wants your child ahead of time.
It's a lot of *** work though, and unless I'm getting paid a nice sum I'd rather not carry a child for the sake of being "a good person". Cells don't have feelings etc.
[+]
By Halfpint 2011-07-07 11:33:11
what would you advise..........(this may be a bit over the top but it is a true situation)..
scenario : couple gets married, he moves her away from her family and friends so she has not suport system. She is Completely dependent on him for everything, food, clothing, shelter, transportation.
Everything fine for 1 year, then he begins abusing her physically and mentally. He wants kids so he forces sex(basically spousal rape) on his wife until she gets pregnant. He continues to abuse her through pregnancy, she almost loses the baby 3 times because he is hitting her in the abdomin and kidneys. She is beaten so badly on one occassion she ends up in the hospital. While there she tries to get nurses to understand she want help but he is always present so her attempts are fruitless.
She has baby and everything is ok for 3 months. He then gets jealous of the time she spends with baby and begins to abuse her again. He also becomes violent with the baby when it cries, throwing it into the crib or onto the sofa or chair, then he starts hitting her for not being able to keep the baby "under control".
When the first child is 14 mo.old she becomes pregnant again but does not want to bring another child into the relationship, continuing the pregnancy is not an option because he has already said if she gets pregnant he will "beat the baby out of her, even if he has to kill her".
For those rightious pro-lifers... would you deny her an abortion??
which is worse, him killing the mom, or removing a bunch of cells at an early stage?
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-07 11:33:46
Sylph.Anjali said: Hmmm but it has nothing to do with being a "good person" etc.
But I'd rather not open up a can of worms now. People are only going to assume I'm saying that adoption is an automatic better choice than abortion, which I'm not. I don't have enough energy to debate it more.
If my best friend couldn't have children, I found put I was pregnant and didn't want, and she wanted the child, I'd most likely go through with it and give her the child. I don't care enough about other's peoples want for children to go through the pain/inconvenience of childbirth without being paid a lot. <_< /shellfish.
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-07 11:36:28
Halfpint said: what would you advise..........(this may be a bit over the top but it is a true situation)..
scenario : couple gets married, he moves her away from her family and friends so she has not suport system. She is Completely dependent on him for everything, food, clothing, shelter, transportation.
Everything fine for 1 year, then he begins abusing her physically and mentally. He wants kids so he forces sex(basically spousal rape) on his wife until she gets pregnant. He continues to abuse her through pregnancy, she almost loses the baby 3 times because he is hitting her in the abdomin and kidneys. She is beaten so badly on one occassion she ends up in the hospital. While there she tries to get nurses to understand she want help but he is always present so her attempts are fruitless.
She has baby and everything is ok for 3 months. He then gets jealous of the time she spends with baby and begins to abuse her again. He also becomes violent with the baby when it cries, throwing it into the crib or onto the sofa or chair, then he starts hitting her for not being able to keep the baby "under control".
When the first child is 14 mo.old she becomes pregnant again but does not want to bring another child into the relationship, continuing the pregnancy is not an option because he has already said if she gets pregnant he will "beat the baby out of her, even if he has to kill her".
For those rightious pro-lifers... would you deny her an abortion??
which is worse, him killing the mom, or removing a bunch of cells at an early stage?
She should murder her husband and have the baby. I'm serious.
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-07 11:40:08
Sylph.Anjali said: Leviathan.Niniann said: Sylph.Anjali said: Hmmm but it has nothing to do with being a "good person" etc.
But I'd rather not open up a can of worms now. People are only going to assume I'm saying that adoption is an automatic better choice than abortion, which I'm not. I don't have enough energy to debate it more.
If my best friend couldn't have children, I found put I was pregnant and didn't want, and she wanted the child, I'd most likely go through with it and give her the child. I don't care enough about other's peoples want for children to go through the pain/inconvenience of childbirth without being paid a lot. <_< /shellfish.
I respect your opinion on that :) My points were really directed at people who take this debate to the extremes. I'm calling it a day now though!
I figured. I don't agree with putting your child up for adoption unless you find people ahead of time. My aunt couldn't have children and adopted a child from an orphanage. I wouldn't trade my cousin for anything, but he has tons of mental problems (bi-polar, terets(sp?), had developmental problems) because he was stuck in a crib until he was like 3, never taught anything and neglected.
Annnyway. Yeeeah.
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-07 11:41:58
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: I think someone should have the right to decide to abort or not but once the fetus has reached a certain stage of developement the choice should be removed and abortion shouldn't be allowed as viable birth control
There is a big difference between killing something with fingers toes and sentience versus killing a multi celled organism with no thought processes above survival instincts
We kill bugs, pests and animals to eat. We kill lame animals. Animals kill their young for various reasons. Why are human babies special?
By zahrah 2011-07-07 11:44:34
Leviathan.Niniann said: Halfpint said: what would you advise..........(this may be a bit over the top but it is a true situation)..
scenario : couple gets married, he moves her away from her family and friends so she has not suport system. She is Completely dependent on him for everything, food, clothing, shelter, transportation.
Everything fine for 1 year, then he begins abusing her physically and mentally. He wants kids so he forces sex(basically spousal rape) on his wife until she gets pregnant. He continues to abuse her through pregnancy, she almost loses the baby 3 times because he is hitting her in the abdomin and kidneys. She is beaten so badly on one occassion she ends up in the hospital. While there she tries to get nurses to understand she want help but he is always present so her attempts are fruitless.
She has baby and everything is ok for 3 months. He then gets jealous of the time she spends with baby and begins to abuse her again. He also becomes violent with the baby when it cries, throwing it into the crib or onto the sofa or chair, then he starts hitting her for not being able to keep the baby "under control".
When the first child is 14 mo.old she becomes pregnant again but does not want to bring another child into the relationship, continuing the pregnancy is not an option because he has already said if she gets pregnant he will "beat the baby out of her, even if he has to kill her".
For those rightious pro-lifers... would you deny her an abortion??
which is worse, him killing the mom, or removing a bunch of cells at an early stage?
She should murder her husband and have the baby. I'm serious.
Yeah...I'm going with Nini on this one.
Where did you get this story from, Halfpint?
Leviathan.Angelskiss
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7227
By Leviathan.Angelskiss 2011-07-07 11:46:57
Halfpint said: what would you advise..........(this may be a bit over the top but it is a true situation)..
scenario : couple gets married, he moves her away from her family and friends so she has not suport system. She is Completely dependent on him for everything, food, clothing, shelter, transportation.
Everything fine for 1 year, then he begins abusing her physically and mentally. He wants kids so he forces sex(basically spousal rape) on his wife until she gets pregnant. He continues to abuse her through pregnancy, she almost loses the baby 3 times because he is hitting her in the abdomin and kidneys. She is beaten so badly on one occassion she ends up in the hospital. While there she tries to get nurses to understand she want help but he is always present so her attempts are fruitless.
She has baby and everything is ok for 3 months. He then gets jealous of the time she spends with baby and begins to abuse her again. He also becomes violent with the baby when it cries, throwing it into the crib or onto the sofa or chair, then he starts hitting her for not being able to keep the baby "under control".
When the first child is 14 mo.old she becomes pregnant again but does not want to bring another child into the relationship, continuing the pregnancy is not an option because he has already said if she gets pregnant he will "beat the baby out of her, even if he has to kill her".
For those rightious pro-lifers... would you deny her an abortion??
which is worse, him killing the mom, or removing a bunch of cells at an early stage? I would recommend one of the THOUSANDS of renewal houses or battered women shelters and help her SAVE HERSELF and her CHILDREN. If she is in the hospital or takes the child to the DR she has an opportunity to say help me.
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-07 11:50:51
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: Leviathan.Niniann said: Bismarck.Josiahfk said: I think someone should have the right to decide to abort or not but once the fetus has reached a certain stage of developement the choice should be removed and abortion shouldn't be allowed as viable birth control There is a big difference between killing something with fingers toes and sentience versus killing a multi celled organism with no thought processes above survival instincts We kill bugs, pests and animals to eat. We kill lame animals. Animals kill their young for various reasons. Why are human babies special? Find a bug that's sentient and we'll talk. my post said I would allow abortion when refering to a stage at a similar level you refer to
Even newly born babies aren't as intelligent as people try to make them out to be. Pigs, for example, are much much smarter. We still eat them.
I guess my point is babies are lower on the totempole than our food animals yet we still claim they deserve life. I'm not saying I'd like go up and kill a baby, but I'm not seeing how their life is "important". Wish I could make better arguments, phones are crippling. I can explain in better detail when I get home.
Phoenix.Sehachan
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-07 11:52:47
Leviathan.Niniann said: Bismarck.Josiahfk said: Leviathan.Niniann said: Bismarck.Josiahfk said: I think someone should have the right to decide to abort or not but once the fetus has reached a certain stage of developement the choice should be removed and abortion shouldn't be allowed as viable birth control There is a big difference between killing something with fingers toes and sentience versus killing a multi celled organism with no thought processes above survival instincts We kill bugs, pests and animals to eat. We kill lame animals. Animals kill their young for various reasons. Why are human babies special? Find a bug that's sentient and we'll talk. my post said I would allow abortion when refering to a stage at a similar level you refer to
Even newly born babies aren't as intelligent as people try to make them out to be. Pigs, for example, are much much smarter. We still eat them.
I guess my point is babies are lower on the totempole than our food animals yet we still claim they deserve life. I'm not saying I'd like go up and kill a baby, but I'm not seeing how their life is "important". Wish I could make better arguments, phones are crippling. I can explain in better detail when I get home. Every animal preserves its own species.
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 33979
By Bismarck.Dracondria 2011-07-07 11:55:38
Animals are much smarter at birth, they even know how to walk right away >_>
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-07 11:55:40
@angel: Assuminh she can get help before he kills her. @@;
@Seha: I'm not sure what you're saying. Many animals reject their children for no apparent reason and let them die. I know there's cases where tigers have done this. I can cite sources later.
Bismarck.Nevill
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2420
By Bismarck.Nevill 2011-07-07 11:56:09
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: I think someone should have the right to decide to abort or not but once the fetus has reached a certain stage of developement the choice should be removed and abortion shouldn't be allowed as viable birth control
There is a big difference between killing something with fingers toes and sentience versus killing a multi celled organism with no thought processes above survival instincts
This. IMO, if you haven't had it done by the first 8 - 12 weeks, you shouldn't be able to.
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 33979
By Bismarck.Dracondria 2011-07-07 11:58:07
Bismarck.Nevill said: Bismarck.Josiahfk said: I think someone should have the right to decide to abort or not but once the fetus has reached a certain stage of developement the choice should be removed and abortion shouldn't be allowed as viable birth control
There is a big difference between killing something with fingers toes and sentience versus killing a multi celled organism with no thought processes above survival instincts
This. IMO, if you haven't had it done by the first 8 - 12 weeks, you shouldn't be able to.
The time limit is like.. 24 weeks >_>
Edit: depends on country of course, here it's 18 I think. Also 24 seems to be the upper limit in the UK
Ramuh.Urial
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 31068
By Ramuh.Urial 2011-07-07 12:10:07
Leviathan.Niniann said: @angel: Assuminh she can get help before he kills her. @@;
@Seha: I'm not sure what you're saying. Many animals reject their children for no apparent reason and let them die. I know there's cases where tigers have done this. I can cite sources later. Mothers will often abandon the runt of the litter too :/
vs Kansas:
Kansas to Shut Down All but One Abortion Clinic Friday | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/kansas-shut-down-all-abortion-clinics-friday
Quote: This story has been updated below.
It's official. Every abortion provider in the state of Kansas has been denied a license to continue operating as of July 1. As we reported last week, strict new state laws put in place this month threatened to close the remaining three abortion clinics in Kansas. The staff of one of these facilities, a Planned Parenthood clinic in Overland Park, initially thought their operation could survive the strict new standards. But on Thursday afternoon, Planned Parenthood announced that the Overland Park clinic has thus far been denied a license to continue operating—effectively cutting off access to legal abortion in the entire state.
The new law, which takes effect Friday, establishes new standards for abortion providers—standards apparently designed to make compliance difficult. The rules require changes to the size and number of rooms, compel clinics to have additional supplies on hand, and even mandate room temperatures for the facilities. Given that the rules were released less than two weeks before clinics were expected to be in compliance, many providers knew they wouldn't be able to obtain a license to continue operating. The laws, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or TRAP laws, are an increasingly common legislative maneuver to limit access to abortion by redering it tough, if not impossible, for providers to comply.
With today's announcement that the Overland Park clinic was denied a license, Kansas becomes the first state to effectively make the legally protected right to obtain abortion services moot. One clinic in Kansas has already filed suit against the new rules, and a hearing on that suit is planned for Friday. Planned Parenthood is also expected to sue. The clinics are also expected to seek an injunction to block the law from being enforced. UPDATE: Planned Parenthood has filed suit. They are seeking an emergency injunction to allow their clinic to remain open while the lawsuit is pending.
"The women of Kansas waiting on their scheduled procedures will pay the immediate price for this outrageous and flagrant exertion of the radical GOP’s legislative muscle under the Brownback administration," said Kansas NOW in a statement Thursday, referring to conservative Republican Gov. Sam Brownback. "The freedom and right to legal healthcare has been denied to the women of Kansas."
UPDATE: In a statement issued Thursday evening, Peter Brownlie, president of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri, seemed to hold out some hope that its clinic could still obtain a license to continue operating, even as the organization sought an injuction to block the law from taking effect. "We have been targeted in this bill and Kansas women are the ones who will suffer if their health care is taken away," said Brownlie. "This is radical, extreme government intrusion into private health care."
UPDATE 5:45 PM EST THURSDAY: The Associated Press is reporting that the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, after initially denying a license to Planned Parenthood, has now changed their mind. Stay tuned for more updates. PP said inspectors were back at the clinic Thursday reevaluating it, after earlier this week indicating that they would not be able to obtain one.
UPDATE 6:08 PM EST THURSDAY: Planned Parenthood just announced that the health department has, in fact, decided to grant it a license to continue operating. The PP clinic in Overland Park will remain open. "Notwithstanding that the regulations are burdensome and unnecessary, the findings of the inspection indicate what we have known and said throughout this process: Planned Parenthood operates with the highest standards of patient care and has rigorous safety procedures in place," Brownlie said.
UPDATE 7:15 PM EST FRIDAY: A federal judge in Kansas City has blocked the new abortion clinic regulations from taking effect.
Kansas Judge Blocks Abortion Clinic Regs | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/07/kansas-judge-blocks-abortion-clinic-regs
Quote: A judge in Kansas has blocked the state's strict new regulations on abortion providers from taking effect, a move that will allow all three clinics in the state to continue offering services, the Kansas City Star reports.
On Friday afternoon, U.S District Judge Carlos Murguia granted a request from two clinics—Aid for Women in Kansas City and the Center for Women's Health in Overland Park—to grant temporary relief from the new rules, which took effect July 1. The clinics were denied a license to continue operating after the state issued new rules on June 17 that would have required both clinics to make major changes to their facilities. A third clinic, owned by Planned Parenthood, was granted a license to continue operating on Thursday.
The injunction will remain in place until the court hears the formal challenge to the state's regulations.
"This is a tremendous victory for women in Kansas and against the underhanded efforts of anti-choice politicians to shut down abortion providers in the state," said Center for Reproductive Rights president Nancy Northup, which joined with the clinics in filing the legal challenge to the law, in a statement Friday evening. "The facts were clear—this licensing process had absolutely nothing to do with patient health or safety and everything to do with political shenanigans."
The Kansas legislature passed a new law in April creating a new designation for abortion providers under the state's licensing system, and directed the Department of Health and Environment to issue new rules. The department issued 36-pages of rules on June 17 (though the clinics did not receive copies until June 20), mandating things like the size of waiting and recovery rooms, the number of bathrooms, and the required temperatures for each room in the facility. Clinic owners argued that it was impossible to meet the new standards, given that they were released just two weeks before the clinics were required to comply. Moreover, they argued, the rules had little to do with protecting patients and were designed to shut down the clinics.
This type of law, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or "TRAP" laws, isn't exactly new or unique, but Kansas' would have gone farther than others in actually shutting down abortion providers.
Kate Sheppard covers energy and environmental politics in Mother Jones' Washington bureau. For more of her stories, click here. She Tweets here. Get Kate Sheppard's RSS feed.
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