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Abortion
Bahamut.Josseppi
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 106
By Bahamut.Josseppi 2011-07-06 10:46:48
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Josseppi said: How about a 3 strike program. 1st one is ok, 2nd one is accompanied with a barrage of information about safe-sex practices 3rd one comes with a hysterectomy... if you haven't figured it out by then the rest of us our cleaning out the gene pool by taking you out of it. You can't take away a woman's right to reproduce if she wants to. Not to mention a hysterectomy is an invasive procedure.
If its part of the agreement to have the abortion, sure as hell they can. I'm pro-choice, but if you want to put a stop to the abusers of abortion, its a program like this that's going to make it happen. If not a hysterectomy then tube-tie. The majority of women who use abortion as a one time option won't be affected but the women who think nothing of it, who would be willing to have multiple abortions, would more than likely be ok with having their tubes tied anyways. Freeze some eggs, store them for later and if they finally decide to start being responsible and want a child they can go through in vitro fertilization. Sure it takes away an option, but it teaches them to be responsible with their bodies and forces them to pay to be irresponsible with the life giving organs in their body.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-06 10:51:31
Fenrir.Terminus said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now... there's always abusers of a system, and until they're the norm it's not a big deal. think of it this way: would you want her raising a child? Well that's my thing though... If we truly have come to a consensus as to when life begins or "personhood" begins, then as long as someone got an abortion before the agreed upon time then there should never really be a problem right? I guess my question is, can you abuse the system if you aren't doing something wrong?
And to answer your question probably not. but you never know how people will change when they have a child, there are always those that you think would be great that are terrible and terrible that are great.
considering it's just a clump of cells that are growing in their body, not really.
But you have to look at it in the way of their insurance as to "abuse", I'd use an analogy here to some other medical condition but It would be picked apart, but basically there's a point when somebody does the same thing so many times to where enough is enough, but then you get into the denial of health-care problem in general again.
Also people don't really ever change unless they want to, so the likelihood of somebody changing just because they had a kid is unlikely.
I have no idea how the whole thing turned out, or if the person found another doctor, but are you thinking about something along the lines of:
A patient goes to the doctor. Doctor says, you have lung cancer. Patient says, let's fix this. Doctor says, step 1 is stop smoking. Patient says no, try something else. Doctor says, sorry, I can't really help you if you're not going to help yourself.
That sort of thing?
I was thinking along those lines, but there's a flaw in that line of thinking, for starters if left untreated lung cancer will kill you, if left untreated the cells growing from pregnancy will most likely produce a child.
Not to mention a lot of other factors...
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-06 10:53:16
Sylph.Anjali said: Abortion is so wrong.
how so?
Fairy.Spence
サーバ: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23780
By Fairy.Spence 2011-07-06 10:55:29
Sylph.Anjali said: It goes against God, obviously.
Couldn't tell if you were being serious. I figured you may be against it because you have a wee one of your own.
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 10:55:55
Bahamut.Josseppi said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Josseppi said: How about a 3 strike program. 1st one is ok, 2nd one is accompanied with a barrage of information about safe-sex practices 3rd one comes with a hysterectomy... if you haven't figured it out by then the rest of us our cleaning out the gene pool by taking you out of it. You can't take away a woman's right to reproduce if she wants to. Not to mention a hysterectomy is an invasive procedure. If its part of the agreement to have the abortion, sure as hell they can. I'm pro-choice, but if you want to put a stop to the abusers of abortion, its a program like this that's going to make it happen. If not a hysterectomy then tube-tie. The majority of women who use abortion as a one time option won't be affected but the women who think nothing of it, who would be willing to have multiple abortions, would more than likely be ok with having their tubes tied anyways. Freeze some eggs, store them for later and if they finally decide to start being responsible and want a child they can go through in vitro fertilization. Sure it takes away an option, but it teaches them to be responsible with their bodies and forces them to pay to be irresponsible with the life giving organs in their body. I still disagree. Also, who would fund these expensive operations?
Phoenix.Sehachan
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-06 10:57:02
Lol at - hopefully - troll comment.
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Bahamut.Josseppi
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 106
By Bahamut.Josseppi 2011-07-06 11:08:12
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Josseppi said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Josseppi said: How about a 3 strike program. 1st one is ok, 2nd one is accompanied with a barrage of information about safe-sex practices 3rd one comes with a hysterectomy... if you haven't figured it out by then the rest of us our cleaning out the gene pool by taking you out of it. You can't take away a woman's right to reproduce if she wants to. Not to mention a hysterectomy is an invasive procedure. If its part of the agreement to have the abortion, sure as hell they can. I'm pro-choice, but if you want to put a stop to the abusers of abortion, its a program like this that's going to make it happen. If not a hysterectomy then tube-tie. The majority of women who use abortion as a one time option won't be affected but the women who think nothing of it, who would be willing to have multiple abortions, would more than likely be ok with having their tubes tied anyways. Freeze some eggs, store them for later and if they finally decide to start being responsible and want a child they can go through in vitro fertilization. Sure it takes away an option, but it teaches them to be responsible with their bodies and forces them to pay to be irresponsible with the life giving organs in their body. I still disagree. Also, who would fund these expensive operations?
They would, or their own insurance. They are the ones paying for it mostly now. If they don't want to foot the bill for having their tubes tied after 3 abortions, then learn the lesson beforehand. The are obvious exemptions from the count (rape, incest, still birth, etc.) The idea is more to teach responsibility.
Lets look at DUI's. Most states have some kind of 3 strike policy. 1st DUI you get a fine, license suspension, and aa/na classes. 2nd offense, longer suspension, jail time, more fines and classes. 3rd offense, bye bye license for good. The concept behind this law is to teach people the lesson the first time in order to prevent repeat offenders. Where the worst repeat offenders are cracked down on. Even though its illegal to drive drunk, people still do it. After that first arrest and the effects it has on one's life/finances/career people tend to straighten up pretty quick.
Now this is not quite on the same level, because we're talking about a criminal action, but what we don't realize is that a good chunk of our population wants to make it illegal and won't have it any other way. What I'm talking about is a way of meeting half way. Incorporating the freeness of pro-choice with some of the moral values of pro-life. All this left and right back and forth is getting us no-where. Its time for someone to make a solid stand in the middle and find something that at least the moderate people on either side of the argument will agree with.
Shiva.Kewitt
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 168
By Shiva.Kewitt 2011-07-06 11:08:55
Do we really need to bring more people into a world with so many problems. Maybe we should fix the problems with the world before subjecting more people to it.
I have no plans on ever being a mother, My hubby is sad at this but has gotten over it for the most part. As he is so great with childern it hurts me sometimes at my choice not to have childern. But I made that choice because I can't have them naturally.
As for abortion.
No woman in the world plans to have an abortion after sex. That just doesn't happen. But get this sex is the driving force for all mankind. Well after one gets pragent they need to look at it as a big picture. Something that people that want to outlaw it don't look at they see there very small part of it and don't look at all the issues of it.
As for any woman that has had many, More then likely there are issues at hand the prevent other birth controls. The pill isn't for every woman some get very ill on when there estrogen levels are all over the place.
Abortion.
Killing is wrong.
Wrong to abort.
Personally I think it's wrose to bring someone into the world.
Can't feed them.
Can't care for them.
Can't care for yourself.
Anyone that is pro abortions isn't allowed to complain about any tax money spending because millions, and millions are spend on mothers that can't work because they have kids and the goverment is taking care of them. Child + min wage, doesn't pay for babysitter + food and rent.
There is a reason that in china they have come up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy. I personally would leave the choice in the hands of the people befor inforcing a law like this.
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Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 11:15:58
Shiva.Kewitt said: Do we really need to bring more people into a world with so many problems. Maybe we should fix the problems with the world before subjecting more people to it. I have no plans on ever being a mother, My hubby is sad at this but has gotten over it for the most part. As he is so great with childern it hurts me sometimes at my choice not to have childern. But I made that choice because I can't have them naturally. As for abortion. No woman in the world plans to have an abortion after sex. That just doesn't happen. But get this sex is the driving force for all mankind. Well after one gets pragent they need to look at it as a big picture. Something that people that want to outlaw it don't look at they see there very small part of it and don't look at all the issues of it. As for any woman that has had many, More then likely there are issues at hand the prevent other birth controls. The pill isn't for every woman some get very ill on when there estrogen levels are all over the place. Abortion. Killing is wrong. Wrong to abort. Personally I think it's wrose to bring someone into the world. Can't feed them. Can't care for them. Can't care for yourself. Anyone that is pro abortions isn't allowed to complain about any tax money spending because millions, and millions are spend on mothers that can't work because they have kids and the goverment is taking care of them. Child + min wage, doesn't pay for babysitter + food and rent. There is a reason that in china they have come up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy. I personally would leave the choice in the hands of the people befor inforcing a law like this. What about for the families that can afford to take care of multiple children and want a big family? Would you take away their right to have more than one child because others anre not in such a fortuitous position?
Bismarck.Nevill
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2420
By Bismarck.Nevill 2011-07-06 11:17:18
Serious question (like, for real):
Does the US government pay anything for abortions?
If so, how much?
サーバ: Titan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 66
By Titan.Rohauce 2011-07-06 11:18:30
I get stickied for starting Mac V. PC, but this stays? Krizz is racist.
Bismarck.Nevill
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2420
By Bismarck.Nevill 2011-07-06 11:19:33
Titan.Rohauce said: I get stickied for starting Mac V. PC, but this stays? Krizz is racist.
lol'd
Fairy.Spence
サーバ: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23780
By Fairy.Spence 2011-07-06 11:20:14
Titan.Rohauce said: I get stickied for starting Mac V. PC, but this stays? Krizz is racist.
Everyone is being civil, there's no need to have it nuked.
Bahamut.Kara
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2011-07-06 11:23:36
Bismarck.Nevill said: Serious question (like, for real):
Does the US government pay anything for abortions?
If so, how much? No.
サーバ: Titan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 66
By Titan.Rohauce 2011-07-06 11:25:15
Fairy.Spence said: Titan.Rohauce said: I get stickied for starting Mac V. PC, but this stays? Krizz is racist.
Everyone is being civil, there's no need to have it nuked. I completely agree, but if this is a FORUM, then people should be allowed to discuss things, trolls or not. Just because you don't like what someone is saying, doesn't mean you should remove their opinion.
Fairy.Spence
サーバ: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23780
By Fairy.Spence 2011-07-06 11:26:01
Titan.Rohauce said: Fairy.Spence said: Titan.Rohauce said: I get stickied for starting Mac V. PC, but this stays? Krizz is racist.
Everyone is being civil, there's no need to have it nuked. I completely agree, but if this is a FORUM, then people should be allowed to discuss things, trolls or not. Just because you don't like what someone is saying, doesn't mean you should remove their opinion.
I didn't see the thread you're talking about, I just assumed it turned into a s***storm.
Ramuh.Haseyo
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 22442
By Ramuh.Haseyo 2011-07-06 11:27:27
Titan.Rohauce said: Fairy.Spence said: Titan.Rohauce said: I get stickied for starting Mac V. PC, but this stays? Krizz is racist.
Everyone is being civil, there's no need to have it nuked. I completely agree, but if this is a FORUM, then people should be allowed to discuss things, trolls or not. Just because you don't like what someone is saying, doesn't mean you should remove their opinion.
Mac vs PC is just asking for fanboys to come together and fight. That's like making an Xbox vs PS3 vs Wii thread. You're just asking for trouble.
Phoenix.Sehachan
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-06 11:30:28
Ramuh.Haseyo said: Mac vs PC is just asking for fanboys to come together and fight. That's like making an Xbox vs PS3 vs Wii thread. You're just asking for trouble. lol Wii...
Sylph.Anjali said: The one thing that strikes me about these topics is that it always comes down to singling out certain types of people who get abortions. Either they are too poor/immature to raise a child, or they are super slutty and need to get them 'all the time'. Are we really to believe these are the only people who get abortions? Absolutely not. It is very convenient to make it seem that way though. They're not the only ones, but they're part of it and have all the damn right to have the option at their disposal.
サーバ: Titan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 66
By Titan.Rohauce 2011-07-06 11:30:42
Ramuh.Haseyo said: Titan.Rohauce said: Fairy.Spence said: Titan.Rohauce said: I get stickied for starting Mac V. PC, but this stays? Krizz is racist.
Everyone is being civil, there's no need to have it nuked. I completely agree, but if this is a FORUM, then people should be allowed to discuss things, trolls or not. Just because you don't like what someone is saying, doesn't mean you should remove their opinion.
Mac vs PC is just asking for fanboys to come together and fight. That's like making an Xbox vs PS3 vs Wii thread. You're just asking for trouble. But it's my opinion. And I was using logic as well as facts. Hypothetically there is now a XBOX v PS3 v Wii thread. I use logic and facts in a civil manner. Should it get stickied and removed?
Phoenix.Sehachan
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-06 11:31:28
Rohauce expect a topicban lol...Krizz will just come here and tell you the usual "if you have a problem send a pm to a mod".
Phoenix.Neosutra
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 620
By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-07-06 11:32:06
Sylph.Anjali said: "People aren't responsible enough to bring a new life into the world. Get an abortion."
People aren't responsible enough to make the decision to abort without thinking it through properly and making the right decision. Many women get abortions because it has now become so normal, almost expected, and then live to regret it forever and ever. It's something that will plague their mind for the rest of their life.
The one thing that strikes me about these topics is that it always comes down to singling out certain types of people who get abortions. Either they are too poor/immature to raise a child, or they are super slutty and need to get them 'all the time'. Are we really to believe these are the only people who get abortions? Absolutely not. It is very convenient to make it seem that way though.
I don't think getting an abortion itself is wrong. I think the way in which people decide to do it now is wrong. That includes guys who pressure women they have an affair with, or just didn't want to be serious with, to get it done. It just seems like these days getting an abortion isn't considered to be a life changing event. It's no different from buying a condom. I think that is pretty sad, and is just further evidence of how low society is going.
The more we know, the less we care what's damaged on the way.
You're just as bad as the people who are making extremes (calling women *** for having them, or poor/white trash).
You're making the same generalization by saying people are being casual with it and treating abortion as a condom.
That's a rare *** percentage of the total population and irrelevant to this conversation.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3351
By Fenrir.Terminus 2011-07-06 11:35:30
Maybe not THE central theme, but it exists, and is relevant.
Asura.Ina
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17912
By Asura.Ina 2011-07-06 11:38:58
Titan.Rohauce said: Ramuh.Haseyo said: Titan.Rohauce said: Fairy.Spence said: Titan.Rohauce said: I get stickied for starting Mac V. PC, but this stays? Krizz is racist. Everyone is being civil, there's no need to have it nuked. I completely agree, but if this is a FORUM, then people should be allowed to discuss things, trolls or not. Just because you don't like what someone is saying, doesn't mean you should remove their opinion. Mac vs PC is just asking for fanboys to come together and fight. That's like making an Xbox vs PS3 vs Wii thread. You're just asking for trouble. But it's my opinion. And I was using logic as well as facts. Hypothetically there is now a XBOX v PS3 v Wii thread. I use logic and facts in a civil manner. Should it get stickied and removed?
It's not only about you yourself it's everyone posting in the thread. Threads don't get nuked because someone's opinion isn't liked, they get nuked because people can't behave as adults and discuss said opinions with out resorting to name calling, anger, and just general nastyness. I didn't see the mac vs pc thread so can't comment on it specificly but given the relationship between mac vs pc uses it wouldnt suprise me that it turned into a ***storm.
Ramuh.Krizz
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23561
By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-07-06 11:40:44
Neosutra topicbanned.
Calm down.
vs Kansas:
Kansas to Shut Down All but One Abortion Clinic Friday | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/kansas-shut-down-all-abortion-clinics-friday
Quote: This story has been updated below.
It's official. Every abortion provider in the state of Kansas has been denied a license to continue operating as of July 1. As we reported last week, strict new state laws put in place this month threatened to close the remaining three abortion clinics in Kansas. The staff of one of these facilities, a Planned Parenthood clinic in Overland Park, initially thought their operation could survive the strict new standards. But on Thursday afternoon, Planned Parenthood announced that the Overland Park clinic has thus far been denied a license to continue operating—effectively cutting off access to legal abortion in the entire state.
The new law, which takes effect Friday, establishes new standards for abortion providers—standards apparently designed to make compliance difficult. The rules require changes to the size and number of rooms, compel clinics to have additional supplies on hand, and even mandate room temperatures for the facilities. Given that the rules were released less than two weeks before clinics were expected to be in compliance, many providers knew they wouldn't be able to obtain a license to continue operating. The laws, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or TRAP laws, are an increasingly common legislative maneuver to limit access to abortion by redering it tough, if not impossible, for providers to comply.
With today's announcement that the Overland Park clinic was denied a license, Kansas becomes the first state to effectively make the legally protected right to obtain abortion services moot. One clinic in Kansas has already filed suit against the new rules, and a hearing on that suit is planned for Friday. Planned Parenthood is also expected to sue. The clinics are also expected to seek an injunction to block the law from being enforced. UPDATE: Planned Parenthood has filed suit. They are seeking an emergency injunction to allow their clinic to remain open while the lawsuit is pending.
"The women of Kansas waiting on their scheduled procedures will pay the immediate price for this outrageous and flagrant exertion of the radical GOP’s legislative muscle under the Brownback administration," said Kansas NOW in a statement Thursday, referring to conservative Republican Gov. Sam Brownback. "The freedom and right to legal healthcare has been denied to the women of Kansas."
UPDATE: In a statement issued Thursday evening, Peter Brownlie, president of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri, seemed to hold out some hope that its clinic could still obtain a license to continue operating, even as the organization sought an injuction to block the law from taking effect. "We have been targeted in this bill and Kansas women are the ones who will suffer if their health care is taken away," said Brownlie. "This is radical, extreme government intrusion into private health care."
UPDATE 5:45 PM EST THURSDAY: The Associated Press is reporting that the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, after initially denying a license to Planned Parenthood, has now changed their mind. Stay tuned for more updates. PP said inspectors were back at the clinic Thursday reevaluating it, after earlier this week indicating that they would not be able to obtain one.
UPDATE 6:08 PM EST THURSDAY: Planned Parenthood just announced that the health department has, in fact, decided to grant it a license to continue operating. The PP clinic in Overland Park will remain open. "Notwithstanding that the regulations are burdensome and unnecessary, the findings of the inspection indicate what we have known and said throughout this process: Planned Parenthood operates with the highest standards of patient care and has rigorous safety procedures in place," Brownlie said.
UPDATE 7:15 PM EST FRIDAY: A federal judge in Kansas City has blocked the new abortion clinic regulations from taking effect.
Kansas Judge Blocks Abortion Clinic Regs | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/07/kansas-judge-blocks-abortion-clinic-regs
Quote: A judge in Kansas has blocked the state's strict new regulations on abortion providers from taking effect, a move that will allow all three clinics in the state to continue offering services, the Kansas City Star reports.
On Friday afternoon, U.S District Judge Carlos Murguia granted a request from two clinics—Aid for Women in Kansas City and the Center for Women's Health in Overland Park—to grant temporary relief from the new rules, which took effect July 1. The clinics were denied a license to continue operating after the state issued new rules on June 17 that would have required both clinics to make major changes to their facilities. A third clinic, owned by Planned Parenthood, was granted a license to continue operating on Thursday.
The injunction will remain in place until the court hears the formal challenge to the state's regulations.
"This is a tremendous victory for women in Kansas and against the underhanded efforts of anti-choice politicians to shut down abortion providers in the state," said Center for Reproductive Rights president Nancy Northup, which joined with the clinics in filing the legal challenge to the law, in a statement Friday evening. "The facts were clear—this licensing process had absolutely nothing to do with patient health or safety and everything to do with political shenanigans."
The Kansas legislature passed a new law in April creating a new designation for abortion providers under the state's licensing system, and directed the Department of Health and Environment to issue new rules. The department issued 36-pages of rules on June 17 (though the clinics did not receive copies until June 20), mandating things like the size of waiting and recovery rooms, the number of bathrooms, and the required temperatures for each room in the facility. Clinic owners argued that it was impossible to meet the new standards, given that they were released just two weeks before the clinics were required to comply. Moreover, they argued, the rules had little to do with protecting patients and were designed to shut down the clinics.
This type of law, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or "TRAP" laws, isn't exactly new or unique, but Kansas' would have gone farther than others in actually shutting down abortion providers.
Kate Sheppard covers energy and environmental politics in Mother Jones' Washington bureau. For more of her stories, click here. She Tweets here. Get Kate Sheppard's RSS feed.
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