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Abortion
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-09 01:01:44
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Alright, but just to be clear, it's not a pussy on a pedestal type deal "oh she's the lady, she gets to decide"
It's purely and solely based on the fact that the entire burden of the pregnancy and child birth is on the woman.
If it were the other way around, I'd tell women *** you, you have no choice as well. I understand and its cool, I'm just, its a sore subject for me.
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-09 01:02:06
Ifrit.Eikechi said: OK Tiger is just stickin up for Poupee (I think) but Serj... please hand your man card forward.... lol
But seriously, you're saying if a man's first child was aborted it wouldn't affect him in ANY way? I could see some guys getting very depressed over it, and potentially leading to other problems.
Tiger's not sticking up for Poupee, he's discussed the topic before and had the same opinion.
If the guy really wants a child, why would he want it without having a loving mother along with it? Seems kinda silly. :(
Asura.Poupee
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5330
By Asura.Poupee 2011-07-09 01:03:39
Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15066
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-07-09 01:04:30
Ifrit.Eikechi said: OK Tiger is just stickin up for Poupee (I think) but Serj... please hand your man card forward.... lol
But seriously, you're saying if a man's first child was aborted it wouldn't affect him in ANY way? I could see some guys getting very depressed over it, and potentially leading to other problems. ESPECIALLY if the guy had ZERO say in the matter... *edited* Nah, it's not just defending Poupee, it was legit (but fighting for Poupee is what I do best and is a bonus).
Another reason the guy should have no say in it. Who is to say she wasn't *** around? She shouldn't have to keep a baby just because he wants it and there's a chance it may not even be his to begin with. (and while yes she may actually sleep w/ someone or she may just lie to lie, it is never 100% that he is the dad.) Asura.Poupee said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Alright, but just to be clear, it's not a pussy on a pedestal type deal "oh she's the lady, she gets to decide"
It's purely and solely based on the fact that the entire burden of the pregnancy and child birth is on the woman.
If it were the other way around, I'd tell women *** you, you have no choice as well.
damn tiger :( Sorry!
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-09 01:05:13
Leviathan.Niniann said: Ifrit.Eikechi said: OK Tiger is just stickin up for Poupee (I think) but Serj... please hand your man card forward.... lol
But seriously, you're saying if a man's first child was aborted it wouldn't affect him in ANY way? I could see some guys getting very depressed over it, and potentially leading to other problems.
Tiger's not sticking up for Poupee, he's discussed the topic before and had the same opinion.
If the guy really wants a child, why would he want it without having a loving mother along with it? Seems kinda silly. :(
That is kind of silly, plenty of single parents, and plenty of single male parents (and typically they are great parents).
サーバ: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2011-07-09 01:05:19
Nini, well the guy could be in love with the woman (or could have been when they first got together) and she happened to get pregnant while they were together... Now the guy could form a strong attachment to that child that is his (even if its his first or not). Some gentlemen would want to man up and take care of their child, with the mother or not. There are single fathers out there, just like there are single mothers.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-09 01:06:38
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: it is never 100% that he is the dad.)
they have paternity tests that you can do way before the third trimester...
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-09 01:06:57
Leviathan.Niniann said: Ifrit.Eikechi said: OK Tiger is just stickin up for Poupee (I think) but Serj... please hand your man card forward.... lol
But seriously, you're saying if a man's first child was aborted it wouldn't affect him in ANY way? I could see some guys getting very depressed over it, and potentially leading to other problems.
Tiger's not sticking up for Poupee, he's discussed the topic before and had the same opinion.
If the guy really wants a child, why would he want it without having a loving mother along with it? Seems kinda silly. :( Sometimes people aren't who you think they are.
Asura.Poupee
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5330
By Asura.Poupee 2011-07-09 01:07:11
I guess it just now come downs to which ho you get pregnant then. Better hope she wants to go through the birth even if she doesn't want it.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15066
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-07-09 01:08:05
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: it is never 100% that he is the dad.)
they have paternity tests that you can do way before the third trimester... and if she wants to get the abortion on week 4?
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-09 01:09:25
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: it is never 100% that he is the dad.)
they have paternity tests that you can do way before the third trimester... and if she wants to get the abortion on week 4?
usually wouldn't even know at week 4, unless you're in south central while drinking juice.
Bahamut.Aeronis
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1838
By Bahamut.Aeronis 2011-07-09 01:09:39
Asura.Poupee said: Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc I always ask if they would considered adoption :D Not on the first date though, I think I'd have better things to talk about ._.
Leviathan.Niniann
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-07-09 01:11:30
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: That is kind of silly, plenty of single parents, and plenty of single male parents (and typically they are great parents).
I don't think many people seriously want to be single parents. >_>; I'm not saying you can't be a good single parent, I just don't see why you'd choose that situation over say, the other.
Ifrit.Eikechi said: Nini, well the guy could be in love with the woman (or could have been when they first got together) and she happened to get pregnant while they were together... Now the guy could form a strong attachment to that child that is his (even if its his first or not). Some gentlemen would want to man up and take care of their child, with the mother or not. There are single fathers out there, just like there are single mothers.
I dunno. I also don't think men think that having a child makes them less desirable to the opposite sex in the future. :/ At least within a certain age-group.
Anyway, regardless of me thinking that's silly it's still not their body, and they're not the ones missing work/etc and messing up their body for a child they don't want.
Ragnarok.Beef
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 342
By Ragnarok.Beef 2011-07-09 01:12:07
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: That's a huge slippery slope fallacy. That is not what he said.
You tend to do that a lot, Beef.
you can only give what you get.
people tend to only read what they want to read and forget everything else, so i figure i try it out
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15066
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-07-09 01:12:11
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: it is never 100% that he is the dad.)
they have paternity tests that you can do way before the third trimester... and if she wants to get the abortion on week 4?
usually wouldn't even know on week 4, unless you're in south central while drinking juice. Ok, week 5, 6, 7? etc. Lol any time before paternity is determinable?
And besides, that was just a supporting point. The main point still stands.
It's her body, her choice. "oh i want this baby" shouldn't bind her to carry the thing for 9 months and give birth.
If guys gave birth, I'd say the same but in the other direction.
It's not fair, but the baby being born isn't an equal amount of work/effort.
Pandemonium.Scrumpet
サーバ: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3727
By Pandemonium.Scrumpet 2011-07-09 01:13:15
Bahamut.Aeronis said: Asura.Poupee said: Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc I always ask if they would considered adoption :D Not on the first date though, I think I'd have better things to talk about ._. Surrogate motherhood is a better way to go! D:
Bahamut.Aeronis
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1838
By Bahamut.Aeronis 2011-07-09 01:14:20
Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Asura.Poupee said: Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc I always ask if they would considered adoption :D Not on the first date though, I think I'd have better things to talk about ._. Surrogate motherhood is a better way to go! D: But the poor kids with no families/unwanted/unable to be supported :(
サーバ: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2011-07-09 01:14:30
Nini.. do all women really think being a single mother is a negative? I actually think its a fairly large positive...I know I'm weird, but seriously, it is to me.
Bahamut.Aeronis
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1838
By Bahamut.Aeronis 2011-07-09 01:16:12
Ifrit.Eikechi said: Nini.. do all women really think being a single mother is a negative? I actually think its a fairly large positive...I know I'm weird, but seriously, it is to me. Can't bring home as much bacon! (In certain jobs at least)
[+]
Pandemonium.Scrumpet
サーバ: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3727
By Pandemonium.Scrumpet 2011-07-09 01:16:23
Bahamut.Aeronis said: Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Asura.Poupee said: Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc I always ask if they would considered adoption :D Not on the first date though, I think I'd have better things to talk about ._. Surrogate motherhood is a better way to go! D: But the poor kids with no families :( Hmm, I am still deciding whether I want to adopt or surrogate mother. . .
If I had to do surrogate mother, I would make sure that my mate is the father because, my genes are lousy! xD
Asura.Poupee
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5330
By Asura.Poupee 2011-07-09 01:19:28
Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Asura.Poupee said: Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc I always ask if they would considered adoption :D Not on the first date though, I think I'd have better things to talk about ._. Surrogate motherhood is a better way to go! D: But the poor kids with no families :( Hmm, I am still deciding whether I want to adopt or surrogate mother. . .
If I had to do surrogate mother, I would make sure that my mate is the father because, my genes are lousy! xD or have a baby with me.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15066
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-07-09 01:20:39
chastity belt.png
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-09 01:22:40
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: it is never 100% that he is the dad.)
they have paternity tests that you can do way before the third trimester... and if she wants to get the abortion on week 4?
usually wouldn't even know on week 4, unless you're in south central while drinking juice. Ok, week 5, 6, 7? etc. Lol any time before paternity is determinable?
And besides, that was just a supporting point. The main point still stands.
It's her body, her choice. "oh i want this baby" shouldn't bind her to carry the thing for 9 months and give birth.
If guys gave birth, I'd say the same but in the other direction.
It's not fair, but the baby being born isn't an equal amount of work/effort.
I was going to say earlier that I'd say his decision would only be required after a certain point, probably 14-20 months.
Aye but the property belongs to both of them (in reality).
This problem will be solved one day when the world is like that of Demolition Man and everyone is grown in tubes and you need a license to breed.
サーバ: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5779
By Ifrit.Eikechi 2011-07-09 01:22:43
Well Aeronis (honestly i have no idea if you're a guy or gal lol), work aside...is being a single mother really that bad? Again, I think its great.. it shows a willingness to do what needs to be done, to take care of your loved ones if nothing else.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-09 01:23:34
Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Asura.Poupee said: Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc I always ask if they would considered adoption :D Not on the first date though, I think I'd have better things to talk about ._. Surrogate motherhood is a better way to go! D: But the poor kids with no families :( Hmm, I am still deciding whether I want to adopt or surrogate mother. . .
If I had to do surrogate mother, I would make sure that my mate is the father because, my genes are lousy! xD
I still don't see the point in monogamy, really.
Lakshmi.Flavin
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-09 01:24:12
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Asura.Poupee said: Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc I always ask if they would considered adoption :D Not on the first date though, I think I'd have better things to talk about ._. Surrogate motherhood is a better way to go! D: But the poor kids with no families :( Hmm, I am still deciding whether I want to adopt or surrogate mother. . .
If I had to do surrogate mother, I would make sure that my mate is the father because, my genes are lousy! xD
I still don't see the point in monogamy, really. How does your girl feel about that lol?
Pandemonium.Scrumpet
サーバ: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3727
By Pandemonium.Scrumpet 2011-07-09 01:24:28
Asura.Poupee said: or have a baby with me. Lawl, our baby would come out super freaking cute. :'p
I'll put you on the list of plausible mothers. <3
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15066
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-07-09 01:24:42
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: it is never 100% that he is the dad.)
they have paternity tests that you can do way before the third trimester... and if she wants to get the abortion on week 4?
usually wouldn't even know on week 4, unless you're in south central while drinking juice. Ok, week 5, 6, 7? etc. Lol any time before paternity is determinable?
And besides, that was just a supporting point. The main point still stands.
It's her body, her choice. "oh i want this baby" shouldn't bind her to carry the thing for 9 months and give birth.
If guys gave birth, I'd say the same but in the other direction.
It's not fair, but the baby being born isn't an equal amount of work/effort.
I was going to say earlier that I'd say his decision would only be required after a certain point, probably 14-20 months.
Aye but the property belongs to both of them (in reality).
This problem will be solved one day when the world is like that of Demolition Man and everyone is grown in tubes and you need a license to breed. Lol well if it belongs to both of them, it still doesn't require her to hold it for 9 months.
He can have it once it's aborted and do w/e he wants w/ it!
Pandemonium.Scrumpet
サーバ: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3727
By Pandemonium.Scrumpet 2011-07-09 01:27:02
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: I still don't see the point in monogamy, really. I am having trouble finding one man in my life, I couldn't imagine trying to find multiple. @_@;
Bahamut.Jetackuu
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-09 01:27:41
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Pandemonium.Scrumpet said: Bahamut.Aeronis said: Asura.Poupee said: Don't people usually ask on the first date
"Do you want kids in your future, and if so what would be the most stable time?" etc I always ask if they would considered adoption :D Not on the first date though, I think I'd have better things to talk about ._. Surrogate motherhood is a better way to go! D: But the poor kids with no families :( Hmm, I am still deciding whether I want to adopt or surrogate mother. . .
If I had to do surrogate mother, I would make sure that my mate is the father because, my genes are lousy! xD
I still don't see the point in monogamy, really. How does your girl feel about that lol?
She hasn't really said anything about it.
I've told her numerous times that I think marriage is just an expensive promise.
I guess overall monogamy is easier.
Most people don't want to put up with one man/woman much less multiple.
As it goes to straight couples in the point of reproduction, it would make more sense to spread the seed, also from a genetics point. However from a economic+society standpoint I can see where polygamy could be an issue.
I'm not going to go into the concept of "love" as it's subjective.
vs Kansas:
Kansas to Shut Down All but One Abortion Clinic Friday | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/kansas-shut-down-all-abortion-clinics-friday
Quote: This story has been updated below.
It's official. Every abortion provider in the state of Kansas has been denied a license to continue operating as of July 1. As we reported last week, strict new state laws put in place this month threatened to close the remaining three abortion clinics in Kansas. The staff of one of these facilities, a Planned Parenthood clinic in Overland Park, initially thought their operation could survive the strict new standards. But on Thursday afternoon, Planned Parenthood announced that the Overland Park clinic has thus far been denied a license to continue operating—effectively cutting off access to legal abortion in the entire state.
The new law, which takes effect Friday, establishes new standards for abortion providers—standards apparently designed to make compliance difficult. The rules require changes to the size and number of rooms, compel clinics to have additional supplies on hand, and even mandate room temperatures for the facilities. Given that the rules were released less than two weeks before clinics were expected to be in compliance, many providers knew they wouldn't be able to obtain a license to continue operating. The laws, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or TRAP laws, are an increasingly common legislative maneuver to limit access to abortion by redering it tough, if not impossible, for providers to comply.
With today's announcement that the Overland Park clinic was denied a license, Kansas becomes the first state to effectively make the legally protected right to obtain abortion services moot. One clinic in Kansas has already filed suit against the new rules, and a hearing on that suit is planned for Friday. Planned Parenthood is also expected to sue. The clinics are also expected to seek an injunction to block the law from being enforced. UPDATE: Planned Parenthood has filed suit. They are seeking an emergency injunction to allow their clinic to remain open while the lawsuit is pending.
"The women of Kansas waiting on their scheduled procedures will pay the immediate price for this outrageous and flagrant exertion of the radical GOP’s legislative muscle under the Brownback administration," said Kansas NOW in a statement Thursday, referring to conservative Republican Gov. Sam Brownback. "The freedom and right to legal healthcare has been denied to the women of Kansas."
UPDATE: In a statement issued Thursday evening, Peter Brownlie, president of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri, seemed to hold out some hope that its clinic could still obtain a license to continue operating, even as the organization sought an injuction to block the law from taking effect. "We have been targeted in this bill and Kansas women are the ones who will suffer if their health care is taken away," said Brownlie. "This is radical, extreme government intrusion into private health care."
UPDATE 5:45 PM EST THURSDAY: The Associated Press is reporting that the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, after initially denying a license to Planned Parenthood, has now changed their mind. Stay tuned for more updates. PP said inspectors were back at the clinic Thursday reevaluating it, after earlier this week indicating that they would not be able to obtain one.
UPDATE 6:08 PM EST THURSDAY: Planned Parenthood just announced that the health department has, in fact, decided to grant it a license to continue operating. The PP clinic in Overland Park will remain open. "Notwithstanding that the regulations are burdensome and unnecessary, the findings of the inspection indicate what we have known and said throughout this process: Planned Parenthood operates with the highest standards of patient care and has rigorous safety procedures in place," Brownlie said.
UPDATE 7:15 PM EST FRIDAY: A federal judge in Kansas City has blocked the new abortion clinic regulations from taking effect.
Kansas Judge Blocks Abortion Clinic Regs | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/07/kansas-judge-blocks-abortion-clinic-regs
Quote: A judge in Kansas has blocked the state's strict new regulations on abortion providers from taking effect, a move that will allow all three clinics in the state to continue offering services, the Kansas City Star reports.
On Friday afternoon, U.S District Judge Carlos Murguia granted a request from two clinics—Aid for Women in Kansas City and the Center for Women's Health in Overland Park—to grant temporary relief from the new rules, which took effect July 1. The clinics were denied a license to continue operating after the state issued new rules on June 17 that would have required both clinics to make major changes to their facilities. A third clinic, owned by Planned Parenthood, was granted a license to continue operating on Thursday.
The injunction will remain in place until the court hears the formal challenge to the state's regulations.
"This is a tremendous victory for women in Kansas and against the underhanded efforts of anti-choice politicians to shut down abortion providers in the state," said Center for Reproductive Rights president Nancy Northup, which joined with the clinics in filing the legal challenge to the law, in a statement Friday evening. "The facts were clear—this licensing process had absolutely nothing to do with patient health or safety and everything to do with political shenanigans."
The Kansas legislature passed a new law in April creating a new designation for abortion providers under the state's licensing system, and directed the Department of Health and Environment to issue new rules. The department issued 36-pages of rules on June 17 (though the clinics did not receive copies until June 20), mandating things like the size of waiting and recovery rooms, the number of bathrooms, and the required temperatures for each room in the facility. Clinic owners argued that it was impossible to meet the new standards, given that they were released just two weeks before the clinics were required to comply. Moreover, they argued, the rules had little to do with protecting patients and were designed to shut down the clinics.
This type of law, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or "TRAP" laws, isn't exactly new or unique, but Kansas' would have gone farther than others in actually shutting down abortion providers.
Kate Sheppard covers energy and environmental politics in Mother Jones' Washington bureau. For more of her stories, click here. She Tweets here. Get Kate Sheppard's RSS feed.
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