Haste Vs. Dual Wield

Actually I thought homam body was better than rapparee harness because of enhances triple attack. I'm quite possibly wrong of course, but how many times does triple attack have to proc to get you more hits in than 4% haste? The accuracy helps too of course.

Don't forget this.

Dual Wield only applies to 2 jobs, maybe 3.

THF
DNC
PLD.....lol

But yeah, Dual Wield for any other job is like asking for your *** to be kicked. Let me explain by showing the common /NIN jobs...

WAR/NIN: Who the hell still Axe/Axe or Axe/Joy-toy(or Ridill) at all? The TP gain per hit is lower on dual wield with 2 1-handed weapons than on 1 2-handed weapon (choice of course is GA). Ever since Grips came out, Dual Wield weapons have gone out of style, TP gain is so much faster with a GA (thanks to Double Attack) than with Axe/Joytoy.
MNK/NIN: Only sub NIN if you know you have a sucky tank, or a no tank situation.
BLM/NIN: OMG I have seen way too many BLM/NINs in Pudding camp still....learn to SS/Blink/Phalanx for crying out loud....
RNG/NIN: Ok, having anything that gives RAcc and RAtt+ equiped in your main weapon slots is ok, since like hell you are going to whack a mob with an axe or dagger. RNG/SAM is better if you use a Fire Staff though.
DRK/NIN: WTF are you thinking?
SAM/NIN: See above.
DRG/NIN: See above, plus MNK.
PUP/NIN: lolpup.
BLU/NIN: loldualwieldswords. Get a Genbu Shield and you will survive much longer than using shadows.
COR/NIN: See RNG. Except Joytoy melee CORs....lol. You are basically a BRD with DD ability. Go COR!

THF, DNC, and (somewhat) PLD can dual wield better than any other jobs. Mostly cause of low delay weapons, but still...

So, my point is this: Haste > Dual Wield + gear because Haste gears (mostly) can be equiped by a lot more jobs.

I'm guessing that this question the OP started was because of the Augementation thingy in the next update....

You forgot NIN...

The Triple Attack has been tested to be roughly 1% so it's not a HUGE amount (equal to 2% DA). 2% DA from a 5% DA base (Brutal Earring) is a 1.9% increase in number of hits (if you were /war then it would be a 1.3% increase in number of hits).

4% Haste from a 0% Haste baseline is 4% more hits; from a more realistic base of 53% (18% gear, 2x march, haste) is an increase of 8.5% more hits.

Basically 1% TA will never surpass 4% Haste unless Haste is capped which is impossible on THF.

However, comparing 15acc vs 4haste;

15 accuracy from a 87.5% accuracy baseline (highest accuracy where no accuracy added is wasted) is an increase of 8.6% more hits so roughly the same as 4% Haste in high haste situations. Lose any further accuracy from 87.5% without Corazza on and you favour the Corazza more; gain any further haste than the value above and you favour the Harness more.

Putting this in a more realistic view,

Rapparee Harness should be used if you are receiving 2x Haste and March and your accuracy exceeds 88%~ with it on (earlier if you have really pimp gear like Speed Belt or Dusk Gloves +1).

If you are eating sushi, Harness will win on most mobs as it will if Feint is up (which can be 25% of the time if you are 5/5 Feint).

Natural DA is 10%

Unless mistaken (cause I don't feel like looking it up) the AF feet for WAR gives either +5% or +10% DA to that.

Merits can go up to another 5% for WAR.

Don't know the acutal DA+ Brutals give, as I do not have it atm.

Since I'm a Fort Axe WAR with a ton of stones to burn, I probably triple/quad attack about as often as an Axe/Joytoy WAR...

What would you rather have: 60% TP for every triple attack, or 22% TP for every triple attack?

Thats not including the 14% Haste I have for WAR (19% if I'm /SAM).

So yeah, my WAR is ftw, could be better (just needs dusk gloves, brutal earring) but still, damn....

Let me spin off of this for a bit. Yes, it is true that it doesn't matter which one is calculated first, but the values in which these numbers are summed are significant.

The answer is this: The stat that you can stack the most in will be the most significant (and your desired gear of choice in terms of speed).

Let's just give a situation, let's say you have the following haste gear with two 50 Delay Weapons (just to make the math easier to see). Total Delay = 100
Turban 5%
Dusk Gloves 3%
Swift Belt 4%
Haidate 5%
Fuma-Sune 3%
With a total of 20% Haste
Your weapon Delay would have the delay of 80.

Let's say you slap on a Suppanomimi for 5% Haste: 76 Delay
Notice that this calculation is done AFTER the Haste was done.

On the otherhand, let's say you somehow got 5% on your ear for another 5% haste instead of suppanomimi. Say, the DRG sub earring (of course you wouldn't be able to dual wield unless you were a NIN, but then my calculations would be messed up since I'm too lazy to add in the dual wield bonus based on level).

Then you would have 25% haste. 25% Haste would lead you to a delay of 75 which is faster than the 5% done separately.

This raises an interesting, and important question. NIN's have an innate dual wield provides a significant attack haste without any support whatsoever. Dual Wield IV gives 30% Reduction. Ninja Chainmail and Suppanomimi gives another 10%. And what is even more is Koga Hakama which can potentially add another 5% dual wield. A Ninja can potentially have 40% Dual Wield attack haste as well as a maximum of 23% Haste by gear. Now here's the kicker. Replacing Byakko's Haidate with Koga Hakama is actually FASTER (but not necessarily better) than the 40% dual wield 23% haste that top tiered ninjas use. That is because of this:

Normal Gear With no Songs(23% Haste, 40% Dual Wield by Innate NIN + Suppanomimi+ Chainmail)
100 Delay x .60 (because 40% is the amount of haste) = 60 Delay
60 Delay x .77 = 46.2

Gear replacing Haste with Dual wield on Legs (18% Haste, 45% Dual Wield, Innate, Sup, Chain,Hakama)
100 Delay x .55= 55 Delay
55 Delay x .82 = 45.1<-- This is Faster!

Now the reason why people don't use Hakama over Haidate is because of several reasons: +15 Dex provides a significant amount of acc and crit, people don't want to gear swap for haste when they need to cast utsusemi, and finally, the simple addition of a BRD and Haste tips haste a huge advantage over Dual Wield:

Normal Gear, 23% Haste Gear + 15% Haste Spell + 20% Haste Song + 40% Dual Wield
Total Haste: 58% Haste + 40% Dual Wield

100 Delay x .42 = 42 Delay
42 Delay x .6 = 25.2

18% Haste + 15% Haste Spell + 20% Haste Song + 45% Dual Wield (Replacement of 5% Haste with 5% Dual wield when haste is larger based on spells and songs)
Total Haste: 52% + 45% Dual Wield

100 Delay x .48 = 48 Delay
48 Delay x .55 = 26.4<-- But with a BRD and Haste, this is Slower!

In conclusion, the answer is... it depends on your gear and what you have most of. Your best bet is adding dual wield or haste based on what you have most of for the fastest attack speed. (And in most cases, it wouldn't make a large difference in TP gain, and if it does, you could use your best judgement on how to large of an effect it makes.

WAR AF feet are +1% DA :p if they were +5%/+10% they would be insanely good but sadly they're actually pretty awful at 72+.

Brutal Earring is +5%~

Ok then, my DA is at 14%.

Seems more, but there ya go.

firstly whoever said it doesn't matter which is calculated first, that's ***, it makes a big difference. look at fastcast and haste, some people still have no idea how fastcast works because they don't know its applied after haste on recast time.

its just harder to prove for melee hit because you cant see your new delay on screen.

15 acc is 7.5% hit rate increase not 8.6% whoever said that

1 accuracy = .5% hit rate

15 acc is much better than 4% haste unless you are capped or real close to cap.

the triple attack isn't worth mentioning much, it barely ever proc's.

if you swing 100x for 50dmg a hit, with 87.5% hit rate 2 200 delay daggers

2x march 30% dual wield haste spell turban homam pants feet hands swift belt and this harness means your delay is 73.1
would take 121.6 seconds to do 4375dmg 35.9 dps

with homam body making your acc 95% thats 78.2 delay
130 seconds to do 4750dmg 36.5 dps

= homam wins before counting triple attack

I both agree and disagree with you on this point. I do use the sword/Genbu's shield combo when soloing, but going /nin for the shadows is the only way I'm able to go head to head against high level mobs. The damage reduction is nice, but it's only really there for me when I get interrupted trying to get off Ichi.

But in any situation where a BLU is there for the purpose of dealing out damage, dual wielding serves more of a purpose than to build TP. The stats I get from my swords gets factored into my spell damage. This, in itself, is enough reason for me to dual wield to maximize my damage output trough my spells alone. Even though I may not be able to utilize Dual Wield as well as, say, a THF or DNC could, I still build TP fast enough to Self Skillchain everytime Chain Affinity is ready.

So, I agree that Genbu's Shield does help reduce damage taken by a BLU, but /NIN is mainly useful for shadows and the extra stats you can get from that second sword.

A person is only a loljob if they can't figure out the basic mechanics of utilizing everything their main and sub jobs have to offer.

O_o You sure about that?

450 = delay
.85 = multiplier for 15% dual wield
.7 = multiplier for 30% haste

450 * .85 * .7 = 267.75 ~ 268
450 * .7 * .85 = 267.75 ~ 268


I think the actual misconception is that fast cast is simply added to haste.

For example:

Some people may believe 25% fast cast + 20% haste = 45% off casting time.

But it's actually:

Cast time * .75 (1-fast cast%) * .8 (1-haste%) = 60% normal cast time

-or-

Cast time * .8 (1-haste%) * .75 (1-fast cast%) = 60% normal cast time

Either way you look at it, it is actually only 40% off casting time, not 45%.

(Obviously all examples are not exact since delay reducers are multiplied in terms of fractions)

First. It doesn't matter which is applied first, as Raen mentioned and Ashokan illustrated. Google the commutative property of math before you claim stupid ***. The only way it WOULD matter is based on how FFXI truncates numbers. Fast Cast and Haste works the same exact way, with truncation getting in the way in same manner.

Second. Once again, you open your mouth when you think you know what's going on. Anyone can spout off 1 Accuracy = 0.5% Hit Rate, but apparently you can't see anything beyond that...

2 Accuracy = 1.0% Hit Rate

1.0% Hit Rate =/= 1.0% Increase in Accuracy

87.5% Hit Rate before Homam
7.5% Increase in Hit Rate from Homam

7.5% / 87.5% = 8.57% Increase in Accuracy by going from nothing to Homam

Third. Going from 53% Haste (18% gear + 15% magic + 20% Marches) to 57% (Same as above + Raparee) increases your DoT by...

(1-0.53) / (1-0.57) = 9.3% increase

Whereas, Homam would be as equally good if your accuracy, before Homam, was...

7.5 / 0.093 = 80.65%

or lower. Excluding the triple attack effect, which would increase the threshold a percent or two.

EDIT: Back on topic. For DoT purposes only, Dual Wield and Haste can be viewed in a similar manner. If you're going from 20% Haste to 25% Haste, this is equivalent to going from 20% Dual Wield to 25% Dual Wield, they both provide the same increase in DoT. However, if you have the choice between going from 10% Haste to 15% Haste vs. going from 30% Dual Wield to 35% Dual Wield, the 5% Dual Wield is better. For Haste and Dual Wield, the more you have, the better the next 1% is going to be.

Examples:

0% Haste -> 1% Haste = (1-0.0) / (1-0.01) = 1.0% increase
50% Haste -> 51% Haste = (1-0.5) / (1-0.51) = 2.0% increase
69% Haste -> 70% Haste = (1-0.69) / (1-0.7) = 3.3% increase

All examples are increasing haste by 1%, but the more base haste you have, the more your DoT is increased.

To Neo

Yes DW and Haste are both going to increase DOT and as you said if you had the choice from 10-15% haste and 30-35% DW you would take the DW for the increased DOT, at what point however is haste going to overtake DW due to WS freqency. For ex: would you take 30-35% DW over 15-20% haste, or 20-25% haste? (purely for DD purposes only, not considering any sort of recast)

After my last post, I got to thinking...

Maybe I am doing it wrong. I don't really do the math to really consider: by dual wielding as a BLU, am I really able to do more damage over time as with any other subjob? To be honest, I don't know. When I lvl'd BLU, I /THF until I hit 60. When I finally lvl'd NIN sub, I couldn't help but think "Oh man, this is awesome! DW yayzors ftw!" But, am I really being that effective? I solo a lot as my BLU. A LOT. I am starting to get good at keeping shadows up which, to be honest, has taken me some time to master. But after my last post, I think I'm going to seriously consider subbing something else for other situations. Maybe the stats from one off-hand sword isn't enough to compensate the DMG loss from the DPS of dual swords.

Thoughts? I'm truly interested in what people think about this.

@Frobeus, this depends on your DoT:WS damage ratio. If you produce more damage in the TP phase (typical of onehanded jobs), then Dual Wield reduction is more valuable compared to SAM (where you can get 3% delay reduction from Sword Strap) but since most of a SAM's damage comes from WS phase, it's nowhere near as valuable.

@Hatheron, depends how much of your damage comes from sword melee DoT (probably varies mob by mob); DW swords will produce more DoT than a singlewield one but it would all depend on how much SA adds to your overall damage over time.

Here's what I Dual Wield:



Click here for my TP gear set-up.

Constructive criticism.

/em casts derail forum.

I like sushi.
Lava Rolls anyone? *^_^*

~Yote

A lot.

Perdu Blade, Tiphia Sting, Walmart, x5 Homam, Pcc, Torque, brutal, acc rings, swift belt, enki leggings.

Would be a good start :D

I agree with you. This would be a dream set for me. But, with regards to the gear I have at the moment, is dual wielding these two particular blades gonna give me more DPS than using just one sword. I think that's really what I'm asking.

But seriously, Thanks Frobeus. I think I'm a really good BLU, I just need better gear to be great.

You will get better DPS using two swords than one, yeah.

I recently dropped ninja chainmail +1 and stored my relic pants. I have never found a situation that dual wield > haste ESPECIALLY considering ninja doesnt have A+ in their main weapon.

(lol)Thief is much in the same boat. As you know its difficult for (lol)thief to get decent accuracy at 75 without body. With raparee you must notice a large diffence between that and dragon harness, or scorp harness, or homam corazza (or whatever it is you have for body). Its much the same for dual wield. No acc

Also, dual wield severely nerfed my tp gain which is sad for ninja. I used ninja chainmail +1 with koga pants and suppamouni and once i swapped in koga body and kitty pants it was a world of difference (not to mention haste affects recasts for utsu not just attack speed). Then again ninja is about on par with thf for DD usefullness these days so i only use it for kiting and tanking as /drk so you can take all this with a grain of salt.

THF is a lot stronger than people think :(

It's just shells are unwilling to give them sufficient buffers etc during endgame fights or make them use af2 hands + thief knife (yeah, if that SAM was using a really crappy weapon and non-offensive hands with no buffs it might suck too)!

Furthermore some shells don't even let THFs lot some of their top drops ~_~

Wasn't the point about which is caluclated first about TP gain, not spell recast timers?

Dual Wield lowers the delay on both weapons, which in turn lower the TP gained per hit.

Haste "lowers" the delay by making you hit faster, but you still get the same % of TP as if you hit without Haste on.

So, yeah, there would be a big difference about which would be calculated first....

nah i used to know azura. i feel the need to compensate diametrically to his touting (lol)thief with my ball busting. think of it as an inside joke that i don't find funny either.

also i don't think that (lol)thief is terribly bad on the whole i just think that:

1) a larger majority of people play it badly than alot of other jobs

2) it takes more than a couple pieces of AH gear and 50 merits to make it serviceable, even if you dont fall into #1

3) the people who play it get too defensive about things that can't be definitively proven (TH effectiveness for example).

I owe any success i've ever had in dynamis, einherjar, salvage etc to a thief. In the right hands its very useful. I just get hot when people talk about its DD capability over other jobs.

/derail

Maybe dual wield + accuracy would be viable for CP armor. If we find out that you can request it like CoP rings or RoZ earrings it would at least warrant testing.

yeh im sure, but i think i need to word it different,

i mean dual wield must be applied first because then the new delay would be calculated for tp gain per hit

and after it was calculated the haste would then be added.

if you did it the other way around the delay reduction would fit as it would come out as same number however the game would have to add extra steps to count the new tp per hit.

altho tbh the main reason i said this is to stop people believing both are added together like a lot of people still think with fast cast and haste

anyways sorry if i confused anyone on what i was trying to say.

lol thanks Ash, he's right though my thf has only started to come of age. I was fairly against endgame for the longest time. I know for a fact THF doesnt parse near as good as any near-equivelent-gear as other DD. The fact SE axed our Yokudoma way back in the day hurt my feelings, just wish there was some THF <3, that could put us back up in the brackets with actual damage usefulness and not just stick us in party/alliances for treasure hunter (i find nearly worthless on drops less than 15% anyways), or Colloberator/Accomplice.

/rant~ wtf is up with the freek'n 5min recast on accomplice/colloberator. you expect THFs to manage all hate with trick attack (lolenmity unless added with weaponskill) and a 5min recast timed ability. I love my THF but come on if you're not going to give us the DMG we want at least dont tease us with nice abilities like this. You may as well make it 2hrs because the only time this becomes useful is in merit pts with an actual tank. Who actually does that anymore? Put us in endgame and we can only accomplice/colloberate one person in our direct party once every 5mins. That means in dynamis/limbus/einj/etc we can save ONE DD~BLM and the rest get to die. For god sakes if you give warrior provoke every 30 secs at least make acc/col every 2mins or something useful.. . . . . huff. . . .

btw Ash, DRG is sweet i'm definately taking it to 75. you really missed out on some awesome /shout bashing this morning. Ime was shouting in whitegate that any DRG with Ares is a complete waste. Clocant, me and many other DRGs completely thrashed him. I literally had a screenful of /sh {/blacklist} add Ime.

What you need to take into account for each theoretical example is, "How many hits do I need to reach 100TP." Let's make up an example for a 75NIN with Suppa, Senj/Perdu (417 delay total), 15% haste, no outside Haste or Marches, and wearing either Byakko's or Relic Legs. It seems obvious that going from 35% to 40% DW is better than going from 15% to 20% haste for DoT. Let's see what it'll do for weapon skills.

417 x 0.65 = 217.05 = 4.4044 = 4.4TP/hit
417 x 0.60 = 250.20 = 4.5425 = 4.5TP/hit

(Rajas + Brutal = 6 Store TP)
4.4TP x 1.06STP = 4.6TP/hit
4.5TP x 1.06STP = 4.7TP/hit

100 / 4.6TP = 21.7 = 22 hits
100 / 4.7TP = 21.2 = 22 hits

22 / 22 = 1.00

For this example, there would absolutely no drop in number of weapon skills performed over time, yet your DoT will be slightly higher while wearing Relic Legs. 5% DW is better than (better DoT) or equal to (equal to number of hits to reach 100TP) 5% Haste in every DD aspect (shadow timers are another thing).

Now, wearing AF Body, having March or Haste, and wearing more or less store TP, will change the results. There's multiple different set ups and scenarios, there isn't a default X% Haste is better than Y% DW at Z% Haste / DW levels. You would have to take into account your own armor build and what songs/spells your getting to see.

EDIT: I'm ignoring the 15DEX on Byakko's because accuracy has nothing to do with what I calculated. I was just showing a simple comparison of 5% Haste vs 5% DW, and that's the only slot that has 5% of each. You should take accuracy into account when calculating which is better overall, I was just too lazy to do so.

=========================



Except I stated in my post that I was talking about DoT. And, as far as DoT goes, it doesn't give a ***about how much TP you're getting for each hit. Which means, it doesn't matter which is applied first because you'll still get the same end value delay.

And, it's common knowledge that DW is applied to the sum of the delay of both weapons, regardless of how much haste you're wearing. The TP calculation doesn't even take haste into account, making it utterly worthless to bring into the conversation.

But I can see your point about the blanket statement made. In summary...

TP calculations don't care about Haste at all, only DW.

DoT calculations don't care about TP at all, only DW and Haste.

Threads like this make me not even want to play anymore, lol.

Who cares? Just try it out if you can afford it and do what works best for yourself. This game isn't cut and dry like WoW is. You can pull as many calculations out of your *** as you want, it shouldn't prevent you from enjoying the game nor should it be the basis to alienate others.

/nod, i was just a curious cat :3