Atmas

3k+ vorpals if their good, but they sure as hell dont build tp quick so i dunno how it would compare. Seriously tho hes an idiot who doesnt know how jobs work.

Start with the realization there's no reason to ever have more than 6 people in a farming group.

A PLD meleeing with no buffs will still do more damage than the SMN. If you're scared of tp when your WHM has unlimited mp, I don't know what to tell you. I still wouldn't recommend using either of them, but whatever.

All of this is irrelevant because it's still a waste of space. You don't need more people, and you don't need the option to support heal. BLM is better than SCH.. enmity douse and blizzard5 make that completely secure. If a SCH caps hate, they either need to tank(in which case you should replace them with a melee anyway), or stop nuking for a while(in which case you should replace them with a blm who can just enmity douse).

This would be a valid point if you needed 'DD support' instead of just 'DD' or there were mobs that are best handled by kite nuking. Unfortunately, there aren't, so real DD completely outclass BST and PUP in every way. WAR gets decimation and MNK gets every blue WS pup does. ***jobs are ***.

I know what every job can do. For the record, since abyssea procs were figured out, I've used SMN 5x(PD on various things), PLD twice(swift blade blue trigger on something I couldn't reset), and SCH never. They're all fully geared and meritted.

You're awfully mouthy for someone who's not got a single job as well-equipped as either of my mules. A PLD with 25% haste from gear and haste spell gets tp in 22 seconds with ghetto Honorbound/Joyeuse, easily WSes for half of your blood pact damage, and does more DPS.

SMN's single use nowadays is.....

Was already said multiple times in this thread, doesn't really make as good a zinger any more.

j/w, but wouldn't this be a pretty top-tier tp setup?

edit: didn't know PLD couldn't use agasaya's >_>

For starters, the reason you wouldnt have more than 2 or 3 people meleeing isnt because of tp feed nessercerily, its because as you say, you dont need/want more than 6 people in your group.

Next, even the best PLDs will not out DD a good smn, simply because a good SMN will nuke on par with a BLM for single nuke vs BP, whereas a PLD will seriously struggle to break 3k vorpal (4~5k chant), and a PLDs tp speed is ungodly slow compared to most melee.

In a 6 person group, 1~2 tanks, 1~2 healers, then the rest interchangable for procs then swap to DD. Certain NMs are best dealt with via kite-nuke, examples being Turul if your lowman, or Raja in many cases (assuming no brew). In these situations, a SCH taking the second healer spot and swapping to nuke when they can will up the DD and killspeed effectively, as well as giving party members the buffs to also increase killspeed. You keep harping about enmity douse, and it is useful, but a BLM still needs to hold back - 10 min recast is a long time if you're nuking all out.

Certain jobs are best for hitting weaknesses, this cannot be denied. However, after a weakness is hit, remaining on those jobs is not the best option in many cases. For pure DD, bst offers a great deal, and very high DoT from their pet assuming they gear correctly. The same is very true of PUP. And you've needed to use PD? Thats seriously pathetic and just supports what im saying about you needing to learn the jobs.

Looks pretty good to me, not that you need anything near that to outdo a top end SMN.

Irrelevant. If you're going to bring a PLD or SMN, the spot is already spoken for. A PLD will do more damage than a SMN will.

Honorbound/Joyeuse is 22 seconds. That's half your blood pact delay. PLD does far more damage from auto-swings as well.

I've killed both with MNK + WHM without brews. Not sure why you'd want to kite them, it's certainly not anywhere near as close to as fast.

Don't need a second healer. I've duoed the aforementioned NMs with one healer and one tank, not sure why you think you need more. Enmity douse is only every 10 minutes, but fights don't last longer than 10 minutes anyway. It's the difference between doing 15k damage, getting hate, and having to toe the line vs doing 15k damage, squeezing in another 5k nuke, enmity douse, and do another 15k. You still have to hold back, but a good BLM will nearly double the damage of a good SCH.

I used PD for final form of pandemonium warden and a few of the higher tier MMM monsters. Forgive me, it seemed more logical than saccing for 25 min with SAMs or risking the loss on MMM.

As far as proccing then changing, you'd still be best off changing to the best DD job(WAR, MNK, or NIN).. though I personally avoid changing as much as possible because it's much more efficient to keep your lights. If you're only doing a single NM, it won't live long enough for it to be worth changing to something useful unless the rest of your group sucks. FYI: WHM BLM BLU WAR NIN THF covers all red and yellow procs, TH, and about 1/3 shot at blue procs with no job changes and 6 people.

Would be nice if PLD could use agasayas.

Mainhand almace...

Swap ammo to an acc ammo, or white tathlum if you can knock a hit off what you need for 100%.

You're... pretty special. No, the reason why PD was used because *I* was bitching about never playing SMN, went SMN and I have a useful 2hr so why not use it.

Also a word of advice: Calling Thornyy dumb is pretty laughable. You really need to quit while you're ahead.

As long as it wasnt a case of 'need' then i take back what i said.


I had limited my responces to abyssea only, as PD is also useful for some AV methods, but as thats not abyssea i didnt use it.

Put simply i wont argue with Niniaan. I disagree with your views and arguements and my own have borne fruit for me, and i hope yours do well for you.

You're not arguing with Ninian, you're arguing with me. I can appreciate that you'd like to back out as I carefully addressed and negated every point you've made all thread, but using my gf as an out is a bit silly.

If you disagree with my views and arguments, tell me how, such that I may learn. If you can't put together a valid argument, then just stop posting and people will forget about it soon enough. It's the way of the internet.

If i wanted to back out i would have done so a fair while ago. Niniaan has my respect for several reasons, not least that she is an exceptional player and has contributed a great amount to these forums. Think what you like tbf, i dont care about you in the slightest so it wont do me any harm.

Whatever you say, it's a bit contradictory to back out while claiming to disagree. She doesn't care if you keep arguing with me, and for what it's worth, I've known her since she started and taught her pretty much everything she knows.

Please, I'd like to hear your arguments. If it's a matter of public appearance, use PM.

lol at arguement over whether smn can out DD pld

and lol at people calling Thorny of all people stupid, wow.

God quit riding Thorny's *** jesus christ.

well since best pld has is VB with sword with crit atmas and using all DD gear war sub could be good. I have used it on war trying to cap sword, since it was capped only at 80, and of course RR makes it look pathetic.

where as garuda can pull 3k blood pacts easy enough with DD atmas.

I would say Smn for single target DD, taking away the fact odin can wipe the floor with things.

please keep trying to argue with him, this is fun to lurk

acknowledging that an intelligent person is intelligent doesn't really qualify as riding their *** :/

IT IS AWFULLY LET'S TAKE SNICK SERIOUSLY IN HERE

okay um is it just me or does refusing to argue with someone because you "respect" their gf

come across as more condescending than respectful

WTF girls I really wanted to see what Atmas people are using for PLD in Aby. This post turned into another chat room style convo. I have an idea! Use the CHAT function to argue your ***and talk trash and troll about paladins or procing red or whatever else you feel you have to say that's relevant that no one gives a ***about except you.

As for the OP I like MM for the refresh but the - enm is kind of a downer if you're tanking anything. Most of the time I use PLD for red proc when our WAR is AWOL, for that I use regain Atmas and still MM, so I can heal folks and not take hate as often.

On the rare occasions that I find myself tanking I generally use Mounted Champion or Vicissitude , any refresh atma besides MM (because of the - enm) and a DD atma to help hold hate like RR. I don't get much mileage out of the occasionally absorb magic damage Atmas unfortunately.

Your question was already answered, GH RR Apocalypse. In solo situations or others without a healer, may want to drop either GH or Apocalypse for Minikin.

Not sure what you're thinking there, I suppose if SMN was using physical atma for their avatar and meleed as well they could come close. That would look pretty ridiculous though, aside from requiring weird gear and their terrible hp pool/risk of death.

Avatar out fulltime vs PLD is no contest, Vorpal Blade sits around 110 base damage with 1.0 ftp, 5 hits, crits. With Razed Ruins+GH, you should be at about 75% critrate with +30% critical hit damage. Crits will generally be a bit short of capping pdif provided you use meat, meaning you're looking at an average damage of:
4 * 110 * 2.8 * 1.3 * .75 = 1201.2
4 * 110 * 1.8 * .25 = 198
107 * 2.8 * 1.3 * .75 = 292
107 * 1.8 * .25 = 48
Total: 1739 * .95 = 1652~ damage per vorpal

Using reasonably easy weapons to get, I'm well aware Almace or any other magian is better:
Honorbound D:58 Del:240
Skeld Sword D:55 Del:240
30% DW(3 traits + Suppa)
Effective Delay: 168
TP Per Hit: 4.9
+11 STP = 5.4
15% TA
8% DA

15 TA = 15% TA
.08(.85) = 6.8% DA
.92(.85) = 78.2% Single

Average TP per Hit:
(.15 * 5.4 * 3) = 2.43
(.068 * 5.4 * 2) = .73
(.782 * 5.4) = 4.22
Total: 7.38 tp per hand
(7.38 * 2) *.95 = 14.02 tp/round
95 / 14.02 = 6.77 rounds to 100 tp, round up because partial rounds take full delay

Used 95 to account for overflow and poor returns, normal tp return is 17 so you would only need 83 tp.

480 * .7(DW) = 336 delay
336 * .6(haste+gear) = 202 delay
202 * 7 = 1414 delay to 100 tp
1414 / 60 = 23.5 seconds
During these 23.5 seconds, you also have ~18 landed melee swings for:
9 * (55+9) * 2.8 * 1.3 * .75 = 1572
9 * (55+9) * 1.8 * .25 = 259
9 * (58+9) * 2.8 * 1.3 * .75 = 1646
9 * (58+9) * 1.8 * .25 = 271
Total: 3748
assuming you have furtherances and mob VIT is similar to your base STR.

1652 + 3748 / 23 = 234.7 DPS

SMN is harder to calc for as avatar base damage is a mystery, but even a self hasted garuda has 323 delay(5 1/3 seconds). Bear with me here, as the next part will likely require input from a SMN and editting: Let's say they have 30% DA and 100 base damage(Normal hits land for 200, crits for 390, and same 75% critrate as PLD). I think this is a more than generous estimate, but it's been a while since I played with a SMN in abyssea and I can't find any info to back-calc anywhere. In the 45 second period between BPs, you get 8 attack rounds.

100 * 3 * 1.3 * .75 = 292.5
100 * 2 * .25 = 50
*1.3(DA) = 342.5 per round
342.5 * 8 = 2740
Again, bad with SMN, estimating predator claws at 4k since that was thrown around a lot earlier and again, feels like a high end estimate.

2740 + 4000 = 6740 / 45 = 149.7 DPS Not even close.

If I'm overlooking anything, doing any math wrong, etc, feel free to point it out. The jobs don't even look remotely close to me unless you were to include SMN melee.

Notes:
PLD used 9 fSTR, 1.8 average PDIF for estimates
SMN used 2.0 average pdif for estimates
Assumed SMN uses VV/GH/RR and PLD uses RR/GH/Apocalypse

Screw your dual weilding and get tp from shield mastering and Ochain!

Oh and /war keeping berserk up as much as you can like a boss

I have a hard time believing it'd make up for the DPS loss without dual wield(unless you have Almace). Don't really care enough about PLD to find out, but it's certainly miles ahead of SMN.

I think it would be funner though :) and you'd swing faster so more often have hate on you

Suppose that was a whoosh then? Don't think it's actually that far behind, tbh.

not just you

also thorny needs an avatar :( cause this anon avatar is mixing me up