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Possible use for PLD?
 Carbuncle.Sevourn
サーバ: Carbuncle
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Posts: 9481
By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:16:25
Sylph.Hitetsu said: Not too long ago I posted in another PLD thread that it wouldn't take much to have PLD includable in the game. It would require a small change in game mechanics (or more specifically, Defence), but nothing overly difficult. Copy/paste spoilered!
Sylph.Hitetsu said: Odin.Sindarius said: Being a paladin main for years I had to use /nin for most major encounters because the damage dealt by mobs has never really scaled with player hit points.
If they changed how defence is worked, making it more like Shell (straight PDT- instead of some mash up of failure), then the damage dealt would be completely different. This is how defence should've always worked imo, but eh..
Fixing PLD at this point would take an awful lot, outside Abyssea it's not all that self-sufficient.
One possible way to make PLD "includable" again would be to change all the defence calculations (including what Defender does), so that PLD has the highest DEF in-game bya sizable margin.
Then, rework DEF so it's more like a PDT- effect instead of what it is now. Additionally, add NM's whose attacks go through shadows and deal large amounts of damage (something akin to Geush Urvan). Combined with other jobs low defence rating and PLD's ability to negate larger portions of the damage would make it a more viable option than a DD/NIN sitting beating it.
To top it off, so that DD's aren't forced to hold back unbelievable amounts: (like others have said) give PLD a trait or some such to increase their Enmity cap.
This would mean that DD's being hit for ~1-1.5k/time would suck up a lot of resources, PLD getting a natural PDT- nature would be able to take a lot more punishment without needing as much in terms of MP conservation (because the mages wouldn't be burning it all dropping C5/C6's every hit). The Enmity cap increase would let PLD's stay on top of the game for longer periods without losing it every hit or two to a DD.
Now, PLD's main damage output originally came from Atonement. I see no reason the damage for it isn't simply doubled. Make it a trait too, why not! "Holy damage is increased" and change the description for Atonement to something like "Deals Light elemental damage based on Enmity".
i could possibly be reading this wrong, but are you saying we should change damage taken calculations so that all dd's took massive amounts of damage, killing the lowman aspect of abyssea and completely changing the system, all over one job?
sacrificing something that 85% of the playerbase enjoys to make one job happy simply isn't viable.
i love paladin, it was my first job and i do wish it was still useful, but i can still admit that it's a holdover from the days where your ls had 25 members and lines for gear were measured in months/years
saving paladin just isn't worth forcing players back into the old system.
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-02-24 08:19:56
I agree with that. I was a pld for the longest time and I have no desire to see it come back into play if it costs me my low man content. Seriously, who liked having to try and gear 18 people at once.
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 Ramuh.Leif
サーバ: Ramuh
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By Ramuh.Leif 2011-02-24 08:20:12
I think it was along the lines of just recalculating defense mechanisms for PLD alone, all the other jobs wouldn't be changed.
Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:21:57
he mentioned dd's taking 1-1.5k per hit
Asura.Xlide
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By Asura.Xlide 2011-02-24 08:22:08
I'm so tired of the same people trolling every *** forum. Please try and just answer the OP....
Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:24:28
Asura.Xlide said: I'm so tired of the same people trolling every *** forum. Please try and just answer the OP....
tigerwoods gave him his answer in the third post.
do you want us to repeat it over and over again?
i'm tired of people that roll into threads, throw up their hands, and melodramatically scream about getting back on topic when the question has already been answered 12 times
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サーバ: Fairy
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By Fairy.Prometheus 2011-02-24 08:26:17
the ppl who post issues with pld hate have forgotten SATA - good luck getting the 90 newbs to line up tho ...
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-02-24 08:26:58
FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-02-24 08:27:08
Well the simple answer is that there is no simple fix for pld to make it useful without the playerbase accepting it as not a main tank or SE messing up a lot of other stuff.
Sadly everyone trumpets their QQ about pld instead of trying to find a use for it. Ultimately accepting there isn't one and just play something else until there is. No wait we will just QQ about it more.
Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:29:18
Asura.Arkanethered said: Well the simple answer is that there is no simple fix for pld to make it useful without the playerbase accepting it as not a main tank or SE messing up a lot of other stuff.
Sadly everyone trumpets their QQ about pld instead of trying to find a use for it. Ultimately accepting there isn't one and just play something else until there is. No wait we will just QQ about it more.
personally i think if the damage was bumped up to the point of a low to mid teir dd it might have some use as a utility job, like blu or dnc
like night said, that would bring it into competition with some other jobs that occupy that niche, but what can i say, i'm biased
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-02-24 08:32:54
Ill be finishing my pld 85-90 with my Caladbolg, pretending that its amazing.
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Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:35:52
Fairy.Prometheus said: the ppl who post issues with pld hate have forgotten SATA - good luck getting the 90 newbs to line up tho ...
the hate issue doesn't begin to cover it. sure, you could build your entire lineup around making absolutely sure hate was on the paladin, but why would you even want it there?
the thieves would probably be better choices for tanks in most situations anyway, why would they want to sata the hate onto an inferior tank?
Asura.Xlide
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By Asura.Xlide 2011-02-24 08:36:45
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
i'm tired of people that roll into threads, throw up their hands, and melodramatically scream about getting back on topic when the question has already been answered 12 times
^
Yeah...you can call me Xlide.
But honestly I'd rather read more than one opinion. I kinda want to level PLD so I figured I'd check it out.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-02-24 08:36:51
Asura.Arkanethered said: Well the simple answer is that there is no simple fix for pld to make it useful without the playerbase accepting it as not a main tank or SE messing up a lot of other stuff.
Sadly everyone trumpets their QQ about pld instead of trying to find a use for it. Ultimately accepting there isn't one and just play something else until there is. No wait we will just QQ about it more.
Actually, there is a very simple fix. Allow PLD a Job ability or trait that circumvents that standard Enmity cap, even if by a very slight amount, it could change the job into an extraordinarily useful position by allowing Damage dealers to attack with impunity. Assuming the PLD is actually good enough to keep hate at the hypothetical elevated cap.
This would be helpful to many other jobs as well. Jobs that typically have to "Hold back" their torrent of rape, such as Warrior, Dark Knight and Black Mage. It's hard to cry "Balance" In a game that's already lopsided to favor 2 or 3 jobs to the exclusion of all others. So I really can't see anything but a positive outcome for this hypothetical.
Anyway, on topic. Paladin being the only job that gets Swift Blade was kind of a troll by SE. There's no real reason at least Blue Mage shouldn't have gotten it. Still, anyone with even the slightest familiarity with Stagger process can tell you, having more people, even with overlapping staggers, is always beneficial. Since the sooner you get those (!!), the sooner you can beat the target down.
Asura.Arkanethered said: Ill be finishing my pld 85-90 with my Caladbolg, pretending that its amazing.
So unfair!
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Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:40:10
Asura.Xlide said:
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
i'm tired of people that roll into threads, throw up their hands, and melodramatically scream about getting back on topic when the question has already been answered 12 times
^
Yeah...you can call me Xlide.
But honestly I'd rather read more than one opinion. I kinda want to level PLD so I figured I'd check it out.
war has more procs and is useful after the proc, if you don't have a war a pld would be somewhat useful in a pinch
sometimes there's just one correct answer, it's simply not a question where it's a matter of opinion
Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-02-24 08:40:40
If the OP has been answered, stop posting. That doesn't give you free reign to turn a thread into a ***storm. Maybe if you all could keep one PLD thread from deteriorating into garbage, there wouldn't be a new one every few days.
Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:41:37
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Actually, there is a very simple fix. Allow PLD a Job ability or trait that circumvents that standard Enmity cap, even if by a very slight amount, it could change the job into an extraordinarily useful position by allowing Damage dealers to attack with impunity. Assuming the PLD is actually good enough to keep hate at the hypothetical elevated cap.
This would be helpful to many other jobs as well. Jobs that typically have to "Hold back" their torrent of rape, such as Warrior, Dark Knight and Black Mage. It's hard to cry "Balance" In a game that's already lopsided to favor 2 or 3 jobs to the exclusion of all others. So I really can't see anything but a positive outcome for this hypothetical.
again, though, why would you care whether the hate was on the paladin or not when other jobs are just as or more survivable
Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:43:37
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Thread topics will evolve like real life conversations do. To try and do otherwise is to go against natural human social interaction.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-02-24 08:44:29
Carbuncle.Sevourn said:
again, though, why would you care whether the hate was on the paladin or not when other jobs are just as or more survivable
Sorry, no job is as survivable as an Ochain PLD, and it's not even that hard to get.
Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-02-24 08:44:55
Carbuncle.Sevourn said: Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Thread topics will evolve like real life conversations do. To try and do otherwise is to go against natural human social interaction. There's a difference between a conversation evolving and someone jumping in every time to disrupt it.
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By Fenrir.Fearforever 2011-02-24 08:46:33
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Actually, there is a very simple fix. Allow PLD a Job ability or trait that circumvents that standard Enmity cap, even if by a very slight amount, it could change the job into an extraordinarily useful position by allowing Damage dealers to attack with impunity. Assuming the PLD is actually good enough to keep hate at the hypothetical elevated cap.
I belive this would be a great fix, better if paired with a slightly increased rate at gaining enmity no other job would suffer and PLD will be able to hold hate.
As for the damage aspect they need to rework Atonement so it isnt held back at 750 damage
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Asura.Xlide
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 159
By Asura.Xlide 2011-02-24 08:46:33
Carbuncle.Sevourn said: Odin.Zicdeh said:
Actually, there is a very simple fix. Allow PLD a Job ability or trait that circumvents that standard Enmity cap, even if by a very slight amount, it could change the job into an extraordinarily useful position by allowing Damage dealers to attack with impunity. Assuming the PLD is actually good enough to keep hate at the hypothetical elevated cap.
This would be helpful to many other jobs as well. Jobs that typically have to "Hold back" their torrent of rape, such as Warrior, Dark Knight and Black Mage. It's hard to cry "Balance" In a game that's already lopsided to favor 2 or 3 jobs to the exclusion of all others. So I really can't see anything but a positive outcome for this hypothetical.
again, though, why would you care whether the hate was on the paladin or not when other jobs are just as or more survivable
I can see your logic there..
I wonder if PLD will regain it's usefulness in the level 90-99 updates.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-02-24 08:48:22
I really think the main problem is people are too used to Abyssea right now. When the gravy train ends, and your 7k Victory smites and Ukko's Fury drop to 1.5-2k, I think a lot of people are gonna quit.
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Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-02-24 08:50:13
Ramuh.Krizz said: Carbuncle.Sevourn said: Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Thread topics will evolve like real life conversations do. To try and do otherwise is to go against natural human social interaction. There's a difference between a conversation evolving and someone jumping in every time to disrupt it.
i think that apart from the animated gifs, if you look over the posts in the past couple of pages, they are reasoned out posts with little to no name calling
i understand that you don't play the game anymore, and so might see job usefulness discussion as garbage, but a lot of us still think it's an interesting topic
if you have everyone mechanically answer a question and then stop posting AND OMG LOCK ANYTHING ELSE where people aren't quoting what you could quickly find out on wiki, you end up with 20 post per day ffxi advanced on BG
seriously, have a look over there sometime to see the consequences of long term locking anything that isn't absolutely on topic
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サーバ: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Fearforever 2011-02-24 08:50:41
Odin.Zicdeh said: I really think the main problem is people are too used to Abyssea right now. When the gravy train ends, and your 7k Victory smites and Ukko's Fury drop to 1.5-2k, I think a lot of people are gonna quit.
I just hope the final game content (95-99) is nothing related to Abyssea so people have to actually work instead of just standing there with atma/brew and doing insane damage
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-02-24 08:54:31
Nah. Atma talisman: 10$ off of their website or some such... Lets you carry your most recent Atma outside of abyssea. Just has to stay equiped.
I could see them doing that....
In respect to the upped enmity cap for pld only. Would that not only amplify the gap between DD jobs? Allowing everyone to go full out because enmity is glued to the pld would only increase the demand for war / mnk / sam only.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-02-24 08:57:08
Asura.Arkanethered said: Nah. Atma talisman: 10$ off of their website or some such... Lets you carry your most recent Atma outside of abyssea. Just has to stay equiped.
I could see them doing that....
In respect to the upped enmity cap for pld only. Would that not only amplify the gap between DD jobs? Allowing everyone to go full out because enmity is glued to the pld would only increase the demand for war / mnk / sam only.
I could see that. Since Atma are still temporary items it wouldn't be that unreal to think you could synergize the Atma into a wearable form. Or, maybe "Atma Infusionist" will become a new job? Bard Ver3.5 go!
Asura.Arkanethered said:
In respect to the upped enmity cap for pld only. Would that not only amplify the gap between DD jobs? Allowing everyone to go full out because enmity is glued to the pld would only increase the demand for war / mnk / sam only.
Just for Paladin. It doesn't really stop any job from tanking as we know it now, but it makes Paladin the most desirable. Even if it's "Just as survivable as another job", the simple fact that the DD can assbeat without repercussion makes it better than an equal survivability job.
Still, the game has always been about the "Right situation for the right job", and there'd always be conflicts that make better use of Ninja, Monk, ect.
Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-02-24 08:57:25
First off, take a look at the first page of this thread. Half the posts shouldn't have been posted, even in the evolution of the thread into what would make a PLD useful again.
Second, I'm not talking about only this thread.
Third, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about this.
Edit: Oh, and I was playing FFXI last night.
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By Fenrir.Fearforever 2011-02-24 08:58:03
Asura.Arkanethered said: Nah. Atma talisman: 10$ off of their website or some such... Lets you carry your most recent Atma outside of abyssea. Just has to stay equiped.
I could see them doing that....
In respect to the upped enmity cap for pld only. Would that not only amplify the gap between DD jobs? Allowing everyone to go full out because enmity is glued to the pld would only increase the demand for war / mnk / sam only.
They could work if so a spike in enmity towards any person within a set time, say 10-15 seconds would make the monster change targets.
Or if lets say the Enmity Cap is currently 750 for all jobs, make PLD's 775-800 so it wouldnt be that far ahead and hate could still change if any spike in enmity happens
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-02-24 09:00:09
Ramuh.Krizz said: First off, take a look at the first page of this thread. Half the posts shouldn't have been posted, even in the evolution of the thread into what would make a PLD useful again.
Second, I'm not talking about only this thread.
Third, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about this. If you're going to purge the trolls in one thread/discussion/subforum, you ought to start purging them in every thread/discussion/subforum.
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I'm sure I'm missing something but barring scythe, could pld proc red on par with war? I like many others struggle to find usefulness for a job I love.
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