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 Bismarck.Elanabelle
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By Bismarck.Elanabelle 2011-01-31 11:56:57  
Ramuh.Laffter said:

It's a 2-hour. There's no lowering the recast of those, ever.

There's precedent for lowering the recast of two-hour abilities.

Once upon a time, Dragoons could summon their wyverns once every 120 minutes.
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By Titan.Darkwizardzin 2011-01-31 11:57:34  
Ramuh.Laffter said:
It's a 2-hour. There's no lowering the recast of those, ever.
They might give us a merit (in the new merit system at 99) that improves 2hr ja for each job. They could lower the 2hr recast that way. Plus some of the 2 hrs have lost there effectiveness now that we have gotten so powerful (by that I mean we more often then not don't use them and in the few cases that we do they don't have as much of an impact as they used to in battle).
 Ramuh.Laffter
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By Ramuh.Laffter 2011-01-31 11:59:00  
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
Ramuh.Laffter said:

It's a 2-hour. There's no lowering the recast of those, ever.

There's precedent for lowering the recast of two-hour abilities.

Once upon a time, Dragoons could summon their wyverns once every 120 minutes.
Changing a two-hour and lowering the recast of it are two different things.
 Ramuh.Vinvv
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By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-01-31 12:00:44  
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
Ramuh.Laffter said:

It's a 2-hour. There's no lowering the recast of those, ever.

There's precedent for lowering the recast of two-hour abilities.

Once upon a time, Dragoons could summon their wyverns once every 120 minutes.
120 minutes=2 hours?
:S
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-01-31 12:02:56  
Ramuh.Vinvv said:
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
Ramuh.Laffter said:

It's a 2-hour. There's no lowering the recast of those, ever.

There's precedent for lowering the recast of two-hour abilities.

Once upon a time, Dragoons could summon their wyverns once every 120 minutes.
120 minutes=2 hours?
:S
60min per hour
2 * 60 = 120 lol
 Caitsith.Lyall
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By Caitsith.Lyall 2011-01-31 12:04:22  
Lakshmi.Andromida said:


Regularly beating the ***out of any story boss, zone boss, chess piece or any other NM in any zone for the lolz (not the shitty crap that any retard can solo) not everything in abyssea is a joke you know.

Our linkshell only formed about 4-5 months ago from a social linkshell. Even some of the old school HNM LSs have been asking us for strats on how to kill mobs.

Let me get this straight. An incredibly-cutting edge linkshell that beats the ***out of everything for the lolz, like zone bosses and story mobs and things that likewise aren't a joke, does it with a paladin at the front?

Am I reading this right? Clarify:

You use a paladin on killing serious mobs like zone bosses and chess pieces. Y/N?
 Ramuh.Vinvv
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By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-01-31 12:04:49  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Ramuh.Vinvv said:
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
Ramuh.Laffter said:

It's a 2-hour. There's no lowering the recast of those, ever.

There's precedent for lowering the recast of two-hour abilities.

Once upon a time, Dragoons could summon their wyverns once every 120 minutes.
120 minutes=2 hours?
:S
60min per hour
2 * 60 = 120 lol
60 minutes=1 hour though.
my question was more with that...it's quite obvious that 120minutes=2 hours...
I don't see the point of the remark elana made...maybe i'm getting wooshed... i dunno.
 Leviathan.Niniann
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By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-01-31 12:05:46  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Lakshmi.Andromida said:
Cerberus.Blazed said:
As it stands, the job has absolutely no use and adds absolutely no benefit to a small, medium or large group.

Bollocks.

My abyssea linkshell is one of the most successful abyssea linkshells on our server and we always use a PLD tank before anything else. If it was not for our PLD tank (they don't take to much damage, can hold hate well enough, don't do to much damage, can find all red/blue/yellow weaknesses) we would not be able to keep the NMs alive long enough to proc all the weaknesses we need.

Unlike MNKs and NINs which take a lot of damage and deal a lot of damage, which they need to do to hold hate, we would need far more WHMs to be able to cope with this which means that we have fewer people to try getting procs and kill it quickly when everything has been proc'd.

I do however agree that PLD does need something extra to make it easier for them to maintain hate. With the hate cap being really low (compared to the damage) that DDs can do now it is stupid. PLD could do with an native ability like provoke and some way of getting a higher hate cap (job trait maybe?)
Get people who are better at proccing. Worst case scenario is I don't ws for a little bit, still much better than PLD. Also lol at far more whms. Should only need 1, 2 tops if your group sucks

This. You should realistically only have one tank on the mob, and one WHM is more than enough to keep a single tank up. Unless of course they suck. Even then, I wouldn't call two WHMs "...far more WHMs..." that's probably the amount you have now. Also if you have a NIN or MNK, they both can proc !!'s while tanking meaning you need less people/spend less time proccing. Also, if you don't suck at proccing, it shouldn't take longer than the duration of the mob to proc :/ Discernment, etc.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-01-31 12:05:51  
Ramuh.Vinvv said:
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
Ramuh.Vinvv said:
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
Ramuh.Laffter said:

It's a 2-hour. There's no lowering the recast of those, ever.

There's precedent for lowering the recast of two-hour abilities.

Once upon a time, Dragoons could summon their wyverns once every 120 minutes.
120 minutes=2 hours?
:S
60min per hour
2 * 60 = 120 lol
60 minutes=1 hour though.
I don't see the point of the remark elana made...maybe i'm getting wooshed... i dunno.
I thought I was
 Caitsith.Lyall
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By Caitsith.Lyall 2011-01-31 12:06:12  
I think the point was that Call Wyvern was once a 2hour and got called down to 20m.

That said, I can't think of something reasonable to replace paladin's 2hour with.

edit: whooshed?
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 Ramuh.Vinvv
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By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-01-31 12:08:07  
Caitsith.Lyall said:
I think the point was that Call Wyvern was once a 2hour and got called down to 20m.

That said, I can't think of something reasonable to replace paladin's 2hour with.

edit: whooshed?
get paladin to 99 and unlock new secret job= white knight.
 
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-31 12:13:30  
Well, technically, if you change the time on a 2hr at all, it's no longer a 2hr, since it's not 2 hours.

So, while I don't get along w/ him/her, Elana is pretty spot on here.

That is, unless you mean a literal sense of
Quote:
It's a 2-hour. There's no lowering the recast of those, ever.
Then that is correct, literally speaking, as once they are lowered, they are no longer 2hrs.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-31 12:14:27  
Either way though, it's all semantics at that point. Elena's example is most practical on the subject.
 Caitsith.Lyall
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By Caitsith.Lyall 2011-01-31 12:19:29  
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Lakshmi.Andromida said:
Cerberus.Blazed said:
As it stands, the job has absolutely no use and adds absolutely no benefit to a small, medium or large group.

Bollocks.

My abyssea linkshell is one of the most successful abyssea linkshells on our server and we always use a PLD tank before anything else. If it was not for our PLD tank (they don't take to much damage, can hold hate well enough, don't do to much damage, can find all red/blue/yellow weaknesses) we would not be able to keep the NMs alive long enough to proc all the weaknesses we need.

Unlike MNKs and NINs which take a lot of damage and deal a lot of damage, which they need to do to hold hate, we would need far more WHMs to be able to cope with this which means that we have fewer people to try getting procs and kill it quickly when everything has been proc'd.

I do however agree that PLD does need something extra to make it easier for them to maintain hate. With the hate cap being really low (compared to the damage) that DDs can do now it is stupid. PLD could do with an native ability like provoke and some way of getting a higher hate cap (job trait maybe?)
Get people who are better at proccing. Worst case scenario is I don't ws for a little bit, still much better than PLD. Also lol at far more whms. Should only need 1, 2 tops if your group sucks

This. You should realistically only have one tank on the mob, and one WHM is more than enough to keep a single tank up. Unless of course they suck. Even then, I wouldn't call two WHMs "...far more WHMs..." that's probably the amount you have now. Also if you have a NIN or MNK, they both can proc !!'s while tanking meaning you need less people/spend less time proccing. Also, if you don't suck at proccing, it shouldn't take longer than the duration of the mob to proc :/ Discernment, etc.

Yeah, the server's best LS needs a paladin to hold a mob so they can work those abyssite with more than 11 people. I suppose. Smells funny, not buying it.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-01-31 12:20:06  
My idea is still the best. Sentinel for 3 min, change the damage & enmity reduction accordingly. Problem solved.
 Caitsith.Lyall
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By Caitsith.Lyall 2011-01-31 12:25:36  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
My idea is still the best. Sentinel for 3 min, change the damage & enmity reduction accordingly. Problem solved.

For a quick and dirty "fix", sure, let's call that the "best."

Just tell me real fast how cycling two paladins riding 90% pdt on every mob balances out for everyone else. Hell, take a single refresh atma, a single regen atma and RR and never need more than two paladins for anything!

...see?
 
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By 2011-01-31 12:28:53
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 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-01-31 12:33:14  
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
My idea is still the best. Sentinel for 3 min, change the damage & enmity reduction accordingly. Problem solved.

Cover II

Lasts for 2 minutes, 1 minute recast

Works on whoever you stand in front, no need to target, you take more damage than normal by a certain percentage unless you use it with a certain piece of AF3

Hate would become a non-issue lol.
 
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 Cerberus.Deadplaything
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By Cerberus.Deadplaything 2011-01-31 12:37:41  
in final fantasy 13 the role of paladin was right give paladin some more useful abilities and traits and i have examples.
Defend - 30 seconds negates physical dmg by 75% for one attack
Regens 10% hp unable to attack until it wears off.
Mbarrier 75%% magic shield next magic dmg taken recast 30 seconds regens 5% mp unable to cast until it wears off
job trait should be Enmity based on damage taken. More dmg you take more hate you have.
Also add in a taunt ability for paladin. and i agree with a cover 2 where you cover an entire party if they are behind you from a ga spell or aoe example gate of hades or self destruct.
 Gilgamesh.Deathsshadow
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By Gilgamesh.Deathsshadow 2011-01-31 12:45:44  
moveZig1 said:
I'm so sick of the complaining about PLD. Yes PLD was the high and mighty back in the day. I'm sure it really hurts going from being the most popular kid in school to being just one of the crowd. Deal with it.

PLD still gets more new gear every update than any other job.

PLD is doubly now, the only real tank option outside of abyssea.

Every other job has gone through a cycle of being useful then useless then maybe useful again (exception: ranger who just got left at useless).

Really PLDs you're just coming off as selfish spoiled children. Get over it and play something else in abyssea.


Lol you sir are silly
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By Sevourn 2011-01-31 12:51:32  
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
Furthermore, S-E has given SO many NM's hate reset TP moves now. A lot of the advantages of using Paladin in the past were because Paladin could accumulate CE really well (in addition to the VE JA's). With NM's spamming hate resets, it's basically a PLD nerf.

No. The reason move PLDs are useless and can't hold hate is because they build VE better than CE and most of the *** do not wear gear for grabbing CE. Hate reset is not even the main problem.

VE/CE and holding hate are beside the point

the problem is no one NEEDS them to have hate

if the mob's attention was permanently glued onto the pld forever and ever they would still be useless

barring some crazy sequence of nm's designed for the sole purpose of making pld relevant again, no one will ever need them to have hate again

i think the closest thing SE could do to "fix" pld would be to bump up their damage to around that of a second tier dd and turn it into a sort of utility job, a competent dd with the ability to heal/blind the mob when needed
 
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By Sevourn 2011-01-31 12:58:19  
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
This is a suggestion thread for SE!

Why Flame Core? 8\

CAPSLOCK TITLE*






*not flame core, just demained
 Leviathan.Quetzacoatl
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By Leviathan.Quetzacoatl 2011-01-31 15:00:23  
I don't know if it's been thought of yet, but i just thought this idea could be discussed, as ridiculous and imperfect it might seem.

Intervention: "Divine apparitions envelop you and your weapon, dealing non-physical main-hand attacks while occasionally absorbing damage."

Basically it's what happens when Utsu fuses with Formless Strikes, and PLD is a hybrid job, so whoever said boosting PLD would require doing something never done before, it's quite like that. The effect deteriorates with each shadow taken (25% absorb rate), with a 40-second recast. Formula would go like this: [Sword / 4] + [Divine + Enhancing] = Y x 0.75

Capped Skills @ 90 give you something like 533 extra damage on every attack round with full shadows (technically 533.4375, decimals always rounded down). I don't play PLD, so take this with a grain of salt as you may. I just like creating stuff and hope they lead to something good.
 Unicorn.Crysten
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By Unicorn.Crysten 2011-01-31 15:25:38  
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
There's definitely things that could be done to breathe life back into PLD.
Adding Cure V would be a big step. Adding Divine Seal would help. Lowering the recast timer of Invincible would work. Adding a spell (similar to Addle) that temporarily decreases the effectiveness of NM hate-reset moves would be helpful. Or, give PLD a passive trait that makes them immune to hate resets. Could also consider adding Provoke and/or Collaborator as an innate JA for PLD.

This would be a bit more radical, but introducing a new class of Sword is an avenue that could make PLD relevant again. Ideally, the new Sword type would allow PLD to use heavier WeaponSkills while still being able to use a Shield.

No. No, no, no.

Cure V doesn't give any enmity you could possibly tank from, it'd simply put PLD into the same stable as a back-up healer.

PLDs don't need Invincible for anything but a massive hate spike. We already have a straight damage reduction/enmity ability every 4 mins, 10 seconds. It's called Sentinel.

Provoke is simple VE that decays over time. Nice for a hate reset, sure, but not going to do diddly squat on a single target hate reset.

Your second idea with the swords is much more feasible in this case, but I'll say it again, PLD doesn't need ANY job ability to tweak it's survivability/hate generation. It has those nailed just fine.

The problem is MNKs and NINs also have this covered through gear and abilities like Migawari and Perfect Counter, and can ***all over PLD in terms of damage at the same time. You either create situations where a PLD is required to tank (evil, hard hitting bastardspawn mobs that a MNK/NIN just can't handle) or you bring PLD up to a similar level (hard hitting WS and DoT). Chant du Cygne was a step in the right direction here.
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 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-01-31 16:08:49  
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Lol, I searched a synonym for cover and found bunch of cools words for a new JA for PLD lol;

Tarp or Overlay, either one!

Protects alliance member with own body as if that player taking damage becomes the PLD only.

Recast: 2 minutes, lasts 15 seconds (with a piece of gear to make it +15 seconds lol, do it the SE way!)

End.
Tarp would be cool.

GUYS IT'S A TARP!
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-01-31 16:15:40  
Caitsith.Lyall said:
Leviathan.Chaosx said:
My idea is still the best. Sentinel for 3 min, change the damage & enmity reduction accordingly. Problem solved.

For a quick and dirty "fix", sure, let's call that the "best."

Just tell me real fast how cycling two paladins riding 90% pdt on every mob balances out for everyone else. Hell, take a single refresh atma, a single regen atma and RR and never need more than two paladins for anything!

...see?
It only starts at 90%.
It would go down like 1% every 2 seconds. 180 seconds total, lose 1% every 2 seconds.

Or better yet something like 1% every second and let it rest at 10% for the last 90 seconds.

It would be no different that low manning with 2-3 blms or a nin whm, or thf and rdm, etc.
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