Caladbolg Vs Redemption

dam so maybe the june update we'll see the cap raise? and do u know for a fact that its not the march update. i mean i myself wouldnt mind the cap comin at a later time cuz i dont want 99 to come too fast.

I dont recall saying anything about triple attack....

Well, I can never get above 2,000 without a Triple attack, and there's not enough equipment in the game to make up the difference. So I call your bluff.

I average about 2k outside of abyssea lol.

For me, in every situation, torcleaver and quietus do basically the exact same dmg. It doesnt matter which i use, they are doing the same. And i do have seperate sets for both, gearing towards their mod.

Even with Sneak Attack, against Lvl0 Mobs, I was barely on 2k, and you do not possess WS properties that I do not. Show me, because the only way you can't be full of ***, is if they changed the WS properties in the last 2 weeks, or are using Sneak Attack with Razed Ruins.

Next time im farming cruor ill go drk and run a parse.

Im not trying to epeen or anything, im just not seeing these low terrible quietus numbers.

I've heard vit helps a lot. I'm on the fence for hands/belt/ammo for vit build or other pieces. Reason being for belt that the change in ftp wouldn't be as great of a gain, str is already capped for hands, and vit from bibiki giving slightly more damage over bomb core overall. I do need a vit ring though.

My set:

I don't recall saying Quietus had Low, terrible Numbers. The age of Razed Ruins has sort of (Pun intended) Ruined our natural perception on damage, and now people assume 7k is "The norm" because of things like Ukko's Fury getting an absurd damage boost with atma. In Reality Quietus is a strong Weapon Skill (As is Torcleaver), that really shines outside of Abyssea (For whatever that's worth, which isn't much). I've had the chance to do some Salvage lately with a Verethegna MNK, and I must say, I'm surprised how well Calad holds up against the Empyrean h2h, and it's not uncommon for Torcleaver to beat Victory Smite by 30% or more without the aid of Razed Ruin atma.

And do you have support?

1) 3.00 ftp vs 3.85 ftp
2) 40% STR and 40% MND vs 25% STR and 25% MND
3) 10% ignore defense vs no ignore defense

Those are the differences between the two WSs.

"fully buffed" is assuming you are capped on cratio, so 3) is eliminated.

So let's compare 1). The difference is 28.3%, advantage guillotine if you are at 95% accuracy for both WSs.

Let's compare 2). The difference, assuming both are sitting at 160 STR and 90 MND, which is being pretty fair outside abyssea. So WSC for Quietus is 85. Guillotine WSC will be 52. Assuming capped STR, and assuming you are using the same weapon, your D+WSC will be 240 for Quietus, and 207 for guillotine. The difference is 15.9%, advantage Quietus.

So, as I said, assuming fully buffed, which obviously means capped cratio, it is obvious to me that 28.3% > 15.9%. That's not to say that capping cratio is easy, it is not easy to do, and on anything meaningful you are not gonna be near cap, which makes the 10% ignore defense very very useful. This is also not saying Quietus isn't the better WS, it is the better WS overall but the ceiling isn't as high outside abyssea as Guillotine as the math indicated.

Inside abyssea, you have cruor buff on attributes, and atma, making the WSC advantage shines a whole lot more. Assuming you get another 120 str and another 50 MND from atma and cruor buff. The WSC for Quietus would be 142, WSC for guillotine would be 89. Adding fstr and D, you got 297 vs 244, a 21.7% difference. So it closes the gap yet still Guillotine, under the assuming of fully buffed, should win out.

You really have to be very careful here on what I am trying to say and not get the wrong idea. In normal situation, where you are not fully buffed, that you are sitting at let's say 800 attack instead of 1200 attack, and that you have to gear for more accuracy for guillotine due to it being a multi hit ws and thus sacrifice some str and attack, Quietus is the clear winner cuz it essentially gives you 10% more attack, and you don't have to worry about accuracy since it is single hit WS, which allows you to gear for more str and mnd. But under fully buffed situation, you have drinks, maybe mages slap a dia III on the mob, maybe you have diabolic eye on, maybe you have cor attack buff, and brd min songs and drg angon. Guillotine is going to come out on top during those situations just cuz it has a higher ceiling.

I am not sure why Quietus owners always get so defensive when talking about Guillotine vs Quietus. No one is taking anything away from Quietus, it is a fantastic WS, and on hard mob it works like a spinning slash +1. But we are also here to point out the short coming of the WS. You guys are here to make it sound like it is the best WS there is. I have caladbolg and I can tell you Torcleaver sucks against harder mobs, that's its short coming, but to deny that Quietus has a very unimpressive 3.00 ftp is fooling yourself.

Working harder for an Inferior weapon skill would leave anyone bitter.


Yeah, I seriously can't even reach 2k on Isgebind with Red Curry, meanwhile, Victory Smite can do 5k (Though I've seen it as low as 1.7k even on a full connect, though that may be attributed to it's periodic damage resistance).

VIT helps some, but not to the degree most think. Belt I am assuming you are gonna be using warwolf belt with 5 str and 5 vit. 5 vit on a 60% vit mod ws is 2.55 WSC. 2.55 WSC is about 1.42% on a 180 D+WSC, meaning 1.2% increase in damage on average with 5 vit. The reason behind 180 is that assuming you are using caladbolg, 109 + 20 + 56 (assuming 110 vit before the 5 vit). Snow belt will give you 0.1/4.85 assuming you use snow gorget, which is 2.06% increase. 5 str will give you 3.75 attack, and it will help some, but not enough to make up the difference. Belt obviously becomes less effective if you use moonshade like myself, but even then, it is a 1.96% increase.

Attack on the other hand, if you are not capped, will net you about 1% damage every 8 or 9 attack assuming you have 800 to 900 attack when you WS, which is the reason behind bombcore over seashell. If your attack is at the 1k to 1.2k range because you have alot of attack buff, then obviously seashell will be better since you will likely be capped on cratio or near cap, and 12 attack / 1200 attack is only a 1% increase, seashell should net you about 1.1% increase usually with 4 vit. However, as you can see, in most case you are going to get more out of bombcore, which is what the build is about, an all around type of build.

I personally use 3 different torcleaver sets and I use spellcast variable so I can set them up in game and use base on mobs. I have 3 sets, MIXed, which is the set I referred to, VIT, use during high attack situation or against weaker mob where I don't need the attack, and ATT, use during low attack situation or against stronger mob where I have no doubt that I won't be capped on cratio. And you are right on the point that hand/belt/ammo/feet are the slot that I have different things on between the 3 sets. Those are the slots that I can fit VIT, attack, or ftp depends on which one is the best in a given situation. So you get the idea that the build I have isn't an end all be all build but a bench mark only.

I personally don't like ares hands, I would rather use versa with 4 or 5 VIT if I want to use a VIT hand. The 3 extra attack from versa is far more likely to help you than the 4 str from ares. You are saying fstr should be capped so the 4 str does nothing.

With my build, since I don't use warwolf and AF3+2 feet and rajas, I have slightly less str, I think only 130 or so, that's why I use heafoc to close the gap a bit. Not to mention 13 str is also about 9.75 attack, that's my reason behind it, if I am not taking advantage of the uncapped fstr, I get the benefit of the attack anyway. Like I said, an all around but not the end all be all set, there is no such thing. The set is designed to get the most out of each slot assuming nothing is capped. Hope this help, I think this is by far the hardest thing to gear for, everyone has their own flavor, I am a big fan of attack on this WS, so most of my stuff is based on that principle.

I guess inferior gear makes every weapon skill inferior, im not having the same problem.

And as far as mr. mathlete, ill take my hard numbers over his "in theory" math

Paging Dr. Butthurt.

Critical hit is the best thing against mobs with high defense. On average a 1.0 ratio increase that goes beyond the non-critical cap is usually 100% of the damage or more. But I am sure periodic damage resistance did some tricks on you cuz I got some extremely low number on it too.

If you think about it, Quietus is 10% ignore defense, spinning slash is a 50% ratio boost. 3.00 ftp vs 2.50, 40% str 40% mnd vs 30% str 30% mnd, Spinning slash can really be the go to WS for harder mobs provide that you get the full use of that 50% ratio boost (on some super high def mob that is). And if you want to save tp to 200% or 300% on Quietus for the 30% - 50% ignore defense, you might as well go with ground strike which at 300% is 3.0 ftp, 75% ratio bonus, and 50% str 50% int. So I think either way you can get some very decent number on harder mobs instead of having to upgrade a WOE scythe solely for those mobs. With VV, smithing blow, and some other tricks, Ground strike is actually extremely useful when you don't WS every time you hit 100%. And at 300% tp, Ground strike is a superior WS than Quietus at 300% tp on high def mobs.

Im not the one trying with all my might to defend something that isnt quite as good as i thought it was.

lolwat. I'm not sure I understand the context.

You picked caladbolg assuming torcleaver completely destroys quietus. It doesnt.

Its like a fanboy with a ps3 when the new good xbox game comes out. The game is clearly good, but you call it crap anyways to justify what you have.

Did you read anything Returner posted, Tidus?

Yes, i read his post about how things "should" work. Im not interested. I prefer to go out and actually play the game and decide what is good for myself.

Yeah he said "i'd rather use my eyeball math than his math theory" along with a couple ad hominem to further back himself up. He also claimed Zic has poor gear which i fail to see.

I never one time said eyeball, ive parsed both of them.

.....

I can justify Caladbolg with the fact that it took 11hrs to complete, I don't need anything else other than that, lol.

And the only thing I'm doing, is calling *** on your "Regular" 3k Quietus. Until you provide some parse data, along with the target and what buffs you were using, I will still call ***. I used the Penitence+2 for a very long time before finally doing Calad, I'm not talking out of my *** here, I've used both. And just for the record, getting the Penitence +2 was way harder than getting the Caladbolg, lol.

And i said the very next time i go to abyssea, ill parse it. As far as caladbolg being easier, your right it isnt hard. But i like to play more then one job and id like empyrean WS on all of them. I have coin GS, scythe, and bow atm. I started getting coins for my GK today, and im already 21/30 lul.

I paid my dues in WoE to get the Empyrean weapon skills.


I still say, with exception being the Tahrongi Canyon NM paths, getting the real Empyrean, is easier than getting the WoE.

I had two problems with getting empyrean.

First, the delay. I wouldnt mind redemption, but caladbolg delay makes me a little bit sad. 466 is much more manageable then 430.

Second, id be stuck at 85. I could power through to 85 so easy, i have a smn bud and we can duo both carabosse and cirein. But 75 isgebind's hearts? theres no way id ever be able to do that. Who knows what the next update will have for both weapons? Chances are ill be able to do WoE side easy, but not empyrean.

"in theory" math is tested by hard numbers you do know that right? We don't just say ok, today I feel like saying Quietus is a 3.00 ftp ws with 40% str and 40% mnd modifier just because I have some agenda to make. It is actually tested by ppl who ran hard number on a controlled environment over and over and over and over. The idea is to find out the ftp and mod of the WS and use that set number to run more math on possible gear selections which subsequently should improve your performance without constantly having to run a parse to compare what gear is better at what slot. You seem to not believe the 3.00 modifier so why don't you go run a test and tell us what it is? So I guess instead of using math, you put on gear and parse each piece to see which is better? then shouldn't you have a billion parse results, or maybe you were just eyeballing?

Isgebind is a joke. You can seriously duo him with no issues.

We tried it when it first came out and had some problems, what setup?