Ok all not from germany here are a few hints to consider: The "Friedrich Ebert Foundation" is a Left-wing association of people who create statistics to support the SPD party. In germany, the SPD went from 38% to ~20% over the last 2 years. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Research "Thilo Sarrazin" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He made a scandal, but 90% of the population supported him. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Germany does not want a FÜHRER like hitler. Whoever sais this is propably very very dumb. The people want someone who represents their interests, is determined to make deals that BENEFIT germany. ____________________________________________________________________ EDIT: Angela Merkel just declared 3 days ago that the "MULTICULTURAL" agenda FAILED MISSERABLY. no joke. german link is all i got, but manye there is an english version out aswell. Just saying, if politicians ADMIT that they F*cked up, the situation is really really bad. really bad.
^This Exactly what he said!
I thought about using/stating the same facts/arguments like he did,
just wanted to picture the probably more clashing zone with a big city.
The biggest threat to today's society isn't Islam. The biggest threat to today's society is fanaticism, intolerance and lack of compassion and understanding.
so... religions in general, got it.
lol you are such an ignorant fool. "Intolerance and lack of compassion and understanding" Why I do believe that's you jet.
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
probably not, but they hear all the bad stuff on tv or read it in the newspaper. i don't think the religion itself is bad, but islam has some pretty obsessed followers. for example i never heard of a christian blowing himself up just to kill others. or a christian killing his daughter / cousin cause she lost her virginity (or sth. similar) to save the families pride. well, at least not in this century.
we have cases like that 3-4 per year in the media. here you can see a list of women to who this happened in 2010:
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
probably not, but they hear all the bad stuff on tv or read it in the newspaper. i don't think the religion itself is bad, but islam has some pretty obsessed followers. for example i never heard of a christian blowing himself up just to kill others. or a christian killing his daughter / cousin cause she lost her virginity (or sth. similar) to save the families pride. well, at least not in this century.
we have cases like that 3-4 per year in the media. here you can see a list of women to who this happened in 2010:
I agree with the point you make about obsessed followers, but technically with religion things are in place the way they are to be followed. It's when you get radical groups who interpret things in ways they weren't meant to be or even make up/modify part of the religion do you start to have issues. So the point you make about not seeing Christians not blowing themselves up isn't the strongest argument because you do have people radical christian groups who go to similar extremes. It may not be terrorism, but it is extreme.
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
probably not, but they hear all the bad stuff on tv or read it in the newspaper. i don't think the religion itself is bad, but islam has some pretty obsessed followers. for example i never heard of a christian blowing himself up just to kill others. or a christian killing his daughter / cousin cause she lost her virginity (or sth. similar) to save the families pride. well, at least not in this century.
we have cases like that 3-4 per year in the media. here you can see a list of women to who this happened in 2010:
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
probably not, but they hear all the bad stuff on tv or read it in the newspaper. i don't think the religion itself is bad, but islam has some pretty obsessed followers. for example i never heard of a christian blowing himself up just to kill others. or a christian killing his daughter / cousin cause she lost her virginity (or sth. similar) to save the families pride. well, at least not in this century.
we have cases like that 3-4 per year in the media. here you can see a list of women to who this happened in 2010:
I agree with the point you make about obsessed followers, but technically with religion things are in place the way they are to be followed. It's when you get radical groups who interpret things in ways they weren't meant to be or even make up/modify part of the religion do you start to have issues. So the point you make about not seeing Christians not blowing themselves up isn't the strongest argument because you do have people radical christian groups who go to similar extremes. It may not be terrorism, but it is extreme.
Yup, no doubt there are a lot of fanatic christians out there, too.
But the amount of muslim countries + obsessed followers imo outnumbers all other fanatic groups of other religions.
i experience all this negative islam stuff every day. a classmate of mine was 20 and her parents forced her to marry a 30 year old guy they chose for her (of course she had to be a virgin). another classmate wasnt allowed to go out after school at all, cause there would be occasions she would meet a boy. well, i could give at least 50 examples like that.
don't get me wrong, i have muslime friends who don't behave like that at all and i don't really care about religions anyway.
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
probably not, but they hear all the bad stuff on tv or read it in the newspaper. i don't think the religion itself is bad, but islam has some pretty obsessed followers. for example i never heard of a christian blowing himself up just to kill others. or a christian killing his daughter / cousin cause she lost her virginity (or sth. similar) to save the families pride. well, at least not in this century.
we have cases like that 3-4 per year in the media. here you can see a list of women to who this happened in 2010:
I agree with the point you make about obsessed followers, but technically with religion things are in place the way they are to be followed. It's when you get radical groups who interpret things in ways they weren't meant to be or even make up/modify part of the religion do you start to have issues. So the point you make about not seeing Christians not blowing themselves up isn't the strongest argument because you do have people radical christian groups who go to similar extremes. It may not be terrorism, but it is extreme.
Yup, no doubt there are a lot of fanatic christians out there, too.
But the amount of muslim countries + obsessed followers imo outnumbers all other fanatic groups of other religions.
don't get me wrong, i have muslime friends who don't behave like that at all and i don't really care about religions anyway.
Yeah my fear is just the number of christian countries with big weapons o.o
But you basically hit my view towards religion on the head. IDC. I won't judge one on their beliefs so long as they don't try to force me to believe something I disagree with. unfortunately some people refuse to accept the fact that any person can believe what they want.
Edit: In the part of the US I live we have a lot of strict and radical Christians so after having been raised Christian and defecting from the religion I have seen a lot of cases similar to the ones you mentioned like arranged marriage and what not.
Edit edit: I know my flag says Germany, but thats because of my heritage not where I live. you can't always live where you would prefer to lol.
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
Its called Sura and not Chapter. Someone definitely did not read it. Do not compare Islam to Christianity. Islam is a Political-Theological Law system on how to govern a state. The Bible is purely Spiritual. In christianity: Religion =/= State In Islam: Religion ==! State ==! Law
I guess that's why it's more of a conflict with Islam than any other religion/practice. Countries already have their laws and legal systems in place and most are just in the process of tweaking them per their citizens' request/desires. So not only would an influx of Muslims mean that people would have to deal with other religions(which isn't a big deal), but they also have to deal with many Muslims' dislike for the already stable law system.
Which begs to question... why would a Muslim move to a place that isn't already an Islamic state? Couple this with the fact that many do not learn the native language or culture and you can start to see why Europeans would be upset.
The biggest fear that I've seen is that the growing population of Muslims would eventually over-power the natives' votes. Gradually, modern laws would be subverted into Sharia-based laws until it simply becomes an Islamic state.
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
Its called Sura and not Chapter. Someone definitely did not read it.
Do not compare Islam to Christianity. Islam is a Political-Theological Law system on how to govern a state. The Bible is purely Spiritual.
In christianity:
Religion =/= State
In Islam:
Religion ==! State ==! Law
This
Siren.Eagleeyes said:
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
random quotes from the coran : sexual relation outside marriage deserves 100 whips and lapidation, 1 man = 2 women, a man can hit his wife, he can *** her even on a camel. Mohammed married his second wife at 7 and actually only had sex when she was 9 (pedophile), he ordered the massacre of thousand of jews, explicit calls to jihad. You might want to read.
I wonder if the people who trash the Islamic faith even took the time for read the first couple of chapters of the Qur'an... >_>
probably not, but they hear all the bad stuff on tv or read it in the newspaper. i don't think the religion itself is bad, but islam has some pretty obsessed followers. for example i never heard of a christian blowing himself up just to kill others. or a christian killing his daughter / cousin cause she lost her virginity (or sth. similar) to save the families pride. well, at least not in this century.
we have cases like that 3-4 per year in the media. here you can see a list of women to who this happened in 2010:
Or the North Ireland Conflict. And those were against fellow christians utilizing terrorist tactics.
A) Timothy Mcveigh was an agnostic, and did not carry out his bombing in the name of any religion. But even if he was a christian, there is a pretty big difference between simply being a christian and carrying out mass murder and carrying out mass murder in the name of said religion.
B) The IRA conflict was fundamentally a nationalist movement, you know like "hey lets kick those protestant IMMIGRANTS out of out country". Regardless, any Irish Catholic or Protestant that holds the belief that killing in the name of their religion, isn't in good standing in their religion, and is most certainly denounced and excommunicated. Anytime anyone begins to carry out any awful act in the name of Christianity, the church itself takes major steps to denounce them or excommunicate them. Islam lacks the specific governing structure that Christianity has that enables them to do this, which is why there are Islamic states like Iran that are run by religious figureheads, which can sponsor terrorism, and no one can do anything about it.
C) There are numerous studies and polling that indicates that a huge faction of the Islamic world sympathizes with and does not condemn the long running Jihad against the west or the implementation of terrorism that it uses to achieve its goals. There is no equivalent to this in the Judea/Christian world so trying to say its not a specific religion that has a problem with terrorism just the crazies within is simply ridiculous.
The Islamic faith has a unique and specific relationship with terrorism that no other religion shares.
Gangs, Warlords, Cartels, Pirates, Militias or anyone who use violence to get their way there will always be a chance for a "new" leader to step in and take control. Some step in slowly (like hitler or mussolini or any other number of dictators) some are more violent... look at the militias in the congo, who use rape and murder to keep those areas under control.
How do they get control???
1)Apathy and fear- people say/think .."if it doesn't affect me I'm not going to worry about it"... "Just turn your back and it will go away" .... guess what... it doesn't, it usually gets worse, ask anyone who has been bullied. Once it gets worse it is too late to turn back, unless everyone involved makes a joint effort to reclaim their lives/territory. Read the history books, there is rarely a good outcome when there isn't a system of checks and balances in place.
2)Intollerance and Extremeism- leaders pick on one area that will resonate with the followers,like religion, region, fears, sometimes insecurities, or inequalities. These "leaders" teach...what you don't understand must be destroyed. Those who do not agree with us must be destroyed. Their children and all those like them must be destroyed.
Is there anyway to change that??...who knows. In the Middle east, I have my doubts, they have been fighting over one thing or another for centuries. In other places? Maybe..but it has to happen from within. Sure we can go in anf force them to play nice, but as soon as we leave things will revert to what they were before we arrived.
A lot of Western countries are suffering from existential angst right now. The economies are stagnant or in free-fall, standards of living are no longer improving, and the reasons are complex and difficult to solve.
It's no fun blaming economic stagnation on over-leveraged securities insured by international credit default swaps on the back of pre-packaged derivatives made up primarily of overly-generalized collateral debt obligations. (Which is one of the actual reasons.) The average person can't get behind that -- it isn't immediately solvable, and it doesn't even fit on a poster board!
It doesn't feel good to sit around tirelessly debating the finer points of economic or social unease. What does feel good is wrapping yourselves in an abstract, generically positive concept like patriotism or tradition, standing and saluting a flag, maybe launching some fireworks, and stammering teary-eyed about how how things would just be better if everyone was more like you.
Human nature seeks easier explanations and easier solutions. "Big government!" "Too little government!" "It's the immigrants!" "It's the rich!" Whatever your flavor of choice, people threatened by complex forces beyond their control seek simple explanations for why things are going badly. And it's easiest if the problem is identified as a foreign or dis-empowered minority. That way, people can make sweeping generalized statements and folks will eat it right up, because they have no daily interaction with said people to serve as a counter-example. They aren't effected, so they can pass off the blame and get on with their lives.
This has happened countless times throughout history. The Romans did it. The Mesopotamians did it. The Incas and the Aztecs did it. The Egyptians did it. The French did it, the Nazis did it, the Vatican did it, the Russians did it, the Japanese did it, the Chinese did it. And the Americans did it. Everyone does it.
It's just a shame that people don't learn from history, and fail to suppress this shameful aspect of human nature when confronted with it again.
A lot of Western countries are suffering from existential angst right now. The economies are stagnant or in free-fall, standards of living are no longer improving, and the reasons are complex and difficult to solve.
It's no fun blaming economic stagnation on over-leveraged securities insured by international credit default swaps on the back of pre-packaged derivatives made up primarily of overly-generalized collateral debt obligations. (Which is one of the actual reasons.) The average person can't get behind that -- it isn't immediately solvable, and it doesn't even fit on a poster board!
It doesn't feel good to sit around tirelessly debating the finer points of economic or social unease. What does feel good is wrapping yourselves in an abstract, generically positive concept like patriotism or tradition, standing and saluting a flag, maybe launching some fireworks, and stammering teary-eyed about how how things would just be better if everyone was more like you.
Human nature seeks easier explanations and easier solutions. "Big government!" "Too little government!" "It's the immigrants!" "It's the rich!" Whatever your flavor of choice, people threatened by complex forces beyond their control seek simple explanations for why things are going badly. And it's easiest if the problem is identified as a foreign or dis-empowered minority. That way, people can make sweeping generalized statements and folks will eat it right up, because they have no daily interaction with said people to serve as a counter-example. They aren't effected, so they can pass off the blame and get on with their lives.
This has happened countless times throughout history. The Romans did it. The Mesopotamians did it. The Incas and the Aztecs did it. The Egyptians did it. The French did it, the Nazis did it, the Vatican did it, the Russians did it, the Japanese did it, the Chinese did it. And the Americans did it. Everyone does it.
It's just a shame that people don't learn from history, and fail to suppress this shameful aspect of human nature when confronted with it again.
Red posting banner. Comments that make actual sense.
Ok all not from germany here are a few hints to consider:
The "Friedrich Ebert Foundation" is a Left-wing association of people who create statistics to support the SPD party. In germany, the SPD went from 38% to ~20% over the last 2 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Research "Thilo Sarrazin" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He made a scandal, but 90% of the population supported him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Germany does not want a FÜHRER like hitler. Whoever sais this is propably very very dumb. The people want someone who represents their interests, is determined to make deals that BENEFIT germany.
____________________________________________________________________
EDIT: Angela Merkel just declared 3 days ago that the "MULTICULTURAL" agenda FAILED MISSERABLY. no joke. german link is all i got, but manye there is an english version out aswell.
Just saying, if politicians ADMIT that they F*cked up, the situation is really really bad. really bad.
My whole problem isn't the whole thing against Islan (I've read more of the Qur'an than any other religious book) it's this statement:
"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.
This part is kinda hardcore:
"That is why I tell them at every opportunity that they should learn German, and speak it fluently and without an accent. That should start at nurseries."
Bash Islam all you want, but forcing everyone to be Christian, no thanks. Make people learn the language, yeah that's fine, but NO accent, lol, really? This chancellor seems really hardcore. She wants everyone to look the same, act the same, and talk the same. Hmmm... sounds familiar...
The people of a country don't want conflict, but you just need to tell them that you are "under attack", proclaim all pacifsts have a lack of patriotism and that they endanger the country. Works in every nation.
My whole problem isn't the whole thing against Islan (I've read more of the Qur'an than any other religious book) it's this statement:
"We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here," said the chancellor.
This part is kinda hardcore:
"That is why I tell them at every opportunity that they should learn German, and speak it fluently and without an accent. That should start at nurseries."
Bash Islam all you want, but forcing everyone to be Christian, no thanks. Make people learn the language, yeah that's fine, but NO accent, lol, really? This chancellor seems really hardcore. She wants everyone to look the same, act the same, and talk the same. Hmmm... sounds familiar...
This is BS. Language won't solve anything.
Germany has the laws and regulations to keep everything in place, time to use them.
It kind of reminds me of the people over here who work at Wendy's or McDonald's and get your order wrong all the time because they can't understand or speak English.
I realized what horrible racist, untoughfull and idiotic stuff i wrote, only after i wrote it and turned on my brain.
Sorry :p
Edit: The people of a country don't want conflict, but you just need to tell them that you are "under attack", proclaim all pacifsts have a lack of patriotism and that they endanger the country. Works in every nation.
(whats Happening in germany, and happens all over the world)
I realized what horrible racist, untoughfull and idiotic stuff i wrote, only after i wrote it and turned on my brain.
Sorry :p
Edit: The people of a country don't want conflict, but you just need to tell them that you are "under attack", proclaim all pacifsts have a lack of patriotism and that they endanger the country. Works in every nation.
(whats Happening in germany, and happens all over the world)
True that.
EDIT: I still stand by people not being able to take my order correctly though. :P
The people of a country don't want conflict, but you just need to tell them that you are "under attack", proclaim all pacifsts have a lack of patriotism and that they endanger the country. Works in every nation.
Exactly, and the political parties who dont find sollutions for those many other problems our society is suffering from say thank you;
and jump on the bandwagon..
Making sure that all forms of media are talking/writing about it
and pushing a couple dozen new laws through the parlament, and we have no clue about it.
Qui a Boston tutto bene, anche se mi annoio parecchio quando sono a casa. Mi manca FFXI!
Di che cambiamenti parli? Freo mi ha cacciato dalla Ls prima che tu tornassi, quindi spero riguardi qualcosa al di fuori della Ls lol
Dovrei tornare a fine Novembre.. sono solo a meta' strada con il mio internship XD
Salutami tutti, ciao bello :)
A lot of Western countries are suffering from existential angst right now. The economies are stagnant or in free-fall, standards of living are no longer improving, and the reasons are complex and difficult to solve. It's no fun blaming economic stagnation on over-leveraged securities insured by international credit default swaps on the back of pre-packaged derivatives made up primarily of overly-generalized collateral debt obligations. (Which is one of the actual reasons.) The average person can't get behind that -- it isn't immediately solvable, and it doesn't even fit on a poster board! It doesn't feel good to sit around tirelessly debating the finer points of economic or social unease. What does feel good is wrapping yourselves in an abstract, generically positive concept like patriotism or tradition, standing and saluting a flag, maybe launching some fireworks, and stammering teary-eyed about how how things would just be better if everyone was more like you. Human nature seeks easier explanations and easier solutions. "Big government!" "Too little government!" "It's the immigrants!" "It's the rich!" Whatever your flavor of choice, people threatened by complex forces beyond their control seek simple explanations for why things are going badly. And it's easiest if the problem is identified as a foreign or dis-empowered minority. That way, people can make sweeping generalized statements and folks will eat it right up, because they have no daily interaction with said people to serve as a counter-example. They aren't effected, so they can pass off the blame and get on with their lives. This has happened countless times throughout history. The Romans did it. The Mesopotamians did it. The Incas and the Aztecs did it. The Egyptians did it. The French did it, the Nazis did it, the Vatican did it, the Russians did it, the Japanese did it, the Chinese did it. And the Americans did it. Everyone does it. It's just a shame that people don't learn from history, and fail to suppress this shameful aspect of human nature when confronted with it again.
The issue is that the problems are seldom that complex. The economic problem is not complex, the business were expanding faster than what was safe and eventually it had to collapse. Now we could break down that collapse at the different levels but that doesn't make the problem more complex. Actually it makes the problem more simple because you can plainly see what's going on. The truth is that there are people responsible for what happened and you can't hide behind these so called "walls of complexity" to make it seem like you didn't know what was going on.
The concept of blamming people is also fairly accurate. If you look at WWII the Germans were EXTREMELY wronged by the treaty of versallies. Had the British, French, and US not been so damn intent on punishing Germany with unsustainable restrictions on its economy and military we might have avoided Hitler's rise to power all togethor. Jews were a misstarget in this case but it was indeed somebody else's fault for Germany's problems. The french President was just as much to blame as Hitler for WWII. Anyways I'm getting off the topic here.
A new survey in Germany shows that 13 percent of its citizens would welcome a Führer a German word for leader that is explicitly associated with Adolf Hitler to run the country with a firm hand.
The findings signal that Europes largest nation, freed from cold-war strictures, is not immune from the extreme and often right-wing politics on the rise around the Continent.
The study, released Oct. 13 by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, affiliated with the center-left Social Democratic Party, revealed among other things that more than a third of Germans feel the country is overrun by foreigners, some 60 percent would restrict the practice of Islam, and 17 percent think Jews have too much influence.
The study's overall snapshot of German society shows new forms of extremism and hate are no longer the province of far-right cohorts who shave their heads or wear leather jackets adorned with silver skulls but register in the tweedy political center, on the right and the left. Indeed, the study found, extremism in Germany isnt a fringe phenomenon but is found in the political center, "in all social groups and in all age groups, regardless of employment status, educational level or gender."
Far-right parties gain power across Europe
The year 2010 is marking a clear shift toward extremist politics across Europe, analysts say. An uncertain economy, a gap between elites and ordinary Europeans, and fraying of a traditional sense of national identity has just in the past month brought more hard-line politics and speech, often aimed at Islam or immigrants into a political mainstream where it had been absent or considered taboo.
On Oct. 10, the city of Vienna, a cosmopolitan and socialist stronghold since World War II, voted the far-right Freedom Party into a ruling coalition. The party, which ran on an anti-minaret platform in a city with only one mosque, was formerly associated with nationalist Jorg Haider, but has been reinvented by an animated former dental hygienist, Heinz-Christian Strache.
On Sept. 19, Sweden, long a Scandinavian redoubt of social tolerance and openness, put the far-right Sweden Democrats into parliament for the first time.
Further, this week the Netherlands saw the rise to influence, if not power, of the anti-Islam party of Geert Wilders, a social liberal who argues for gay rights but whose main platform is to ban the Quran and the practice of Islam in the Low Countries. Mr. Wilders' party will formally participate in the Dutch ruling coalition without specifically joining it.
This new governing architecture extreme parties that indirectly join a ruling coalition is now found in Denmark, where the government must rely on the far-right Peoples Party to operate. As author Ian Buruma notes, this form of government gives extreme parties power without responsibility.
Growing divide over immigrants' place
To be sure, German politics, which outlaws extremist parties, has no corollary to events taking place in the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, or Switzerland.
Yet xenophobic rhetoric has crept in. Germany is currently enswathed in debate over comments by Horst Seehofer, president of the Bavarian Christian-Social Union, who stated days ago, It is clear that immigrants from other cultures such as Turkey and Arabic countries have more difficulties. From that I draw the conclusion that we dont need additional immigration from other cultures. The CSU is a sister party of Chancellor Angela Merkels Christian Democrats.
Mr. Seehofers comments are seen as responding to German president Christian Wulff on Oct. 3, German Unity Day, in which he called for a second German unification that would more fully integrate those of immigrant background; he said that Islam also is part of Germany.
President Wulffs statement followed a month of furor over a new book by leftist German central banker Thilo Sarrazin, Germany Abolishes Itself, positing that immigrants from Turkey and Arab states are lowering German intelligence quotients due to high birth rates and less education, and have no productive function except in the fruit and vegetable trade.
Mr. Sarrazins analysis and statistics have been roundly denunciated, and he has resigned his federal bankers post but his book quickly sold 1.5 million copies.
Why extreme-right views are coming to the surface
The Friedrich Ebert Foundation study that came out this week is based on 2,411 respondents and was conducted in April, prior to the recent emotional immigration debate sparked by Sarrazin, Seehofer, and Wulff.
The rise of racism and intolerance argued in the study contrasts with similar foundation studies, prior to the economic crisis in Europe, showing a decrease in racism or xenophobia. However, today nearly a third of Germans polled would consider a policy repatriating immigrants if the job market suffers further.
The authors of the study urge fellow Germans not to underestimate right-wing sentiment.
Oliver Decker, one of the study's authors, says the findings indicate a new popular willingness to express hardcore opinions.
In the past the base for extreme-right views in Germany, though present, was more latent in nature. Now these views are being expressed more frequently, Mr. Decker says. The economic crisis seems to have allowed aggression come to the surface. Among those looking for a valve, foreigners in general and Muslims in particular fill that role.