Affirmative Action

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2010-06-21
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Affirmative Action
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-09 22:10:40  
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
I'm giving a speech to the President's Advisory Council of my college to end affirmative action in my school. This is my speech, tell me what you think and if you find disagreements. I'm curious what opinion is.
Insofar as you appear to be sincere in trying to better your speech, I will critique your paper without regard to my personal opinion on affirmative action. First and foremost, ANY speech or paper on affirmative action SHOULD address the supreme court ruling on the matter. Second, your viewpoint will alienate a portion of those you are trying to persuade in and of itself, you shouldn't bring up unnecessarily divisive issues such as your personal political feelings; i.e., Bush is dumb, Obama is this or that etc. Adding these things will only dilute your point. Further, in the beginning you refer to what the founding fathers thought. If any of your audience has a background in political science you will immediately lose their esteem. It is widely accepted in the academic community that the founding fathers were a group distinct and divided enough that it makes no sense to say they thought this or they thought that because as a rule there were founding fathers on both sides of any issue. Lastly your tone is far to informal; you should not be using words like pissed or contractions in something like this. Also your grammar needs serious work. Oh and this is a bit of an after thought, but lumping all the pro-affirmative action people together and saying they believe something is argumentative fallacy. It's both ad hominem and a sweeping generalization. Attack the principle not the people or you will lose credibility.

I'm not sure where there are any grammar mistakes. Yea, I agree; I wrote the speech when I was pissed and I've already rewritten most the paper. The founding fathers point was still correct; regardless of who was on what side of the issue its obvious which view point won out at the end of the convention. You may say that it was simply to make sure the constitution would be ratified, but that's still backing down from a fight. They chose to be complacent, which was smart considering the circumstances. The supreme court case is also irrelevant. The court ruled that affirmative action could not include quotas, which they technically don't. However, quota systems are still used but its on the "down low". Either way its a losing argument to quote the supreme court unless I can prove quotas.
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By Odin.Gosuapple 2010-10-09 22:25:41  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
As much as I like the idea of telling people to suck it up I am concerned about one question:

At what point do we as a society need to pick others up so that we can grow stronger to achieve that next level of society?

The obvious solution is a dramatic overhaul on the education system K-12 and college. We need to find a way to send almost everyone to some form of college or technical school. Once we increase our population's skills we'd create more jobs, we'd have a better quality of living, and we'd definately be more healthy.

Nobody ever wants to address this issue but the solution to education issues is not governmental or institutional. We can mandate policy changes to help, but at best they're a drop in the bucket that is the solution.
Blacks come from all socio-economic backgrounds but on average have lower test scores and don't go as far in their education. Jews also come from a variety of socio-economic backgrounds but have test scores and education levels that are well above average.
I don't believe for a minute that blacks are inherently dumb or that Jews are inherently smart. What I do believe though is that they have two different cultures. Jewish kids come home and their parents tell them that education is important and make them do their homework, and as a result they go far.
Quite simply, family is the real issue. If we ha a country filled with parents who took a proactive role in the education of their children and teens, we would be far better off as a society. The kids who grow up and don't go to college, the kids who turn to drugs, etc-- they are almost exclusively drawn to their problems that stem from family issues.

But here is a man who articulates it far better than I ever could: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Pk13FfFow
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-09 22:29:09  
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
As much as I like the idea of telling people to suck it up I am concerned about one question: At what point do we as a society need to pick others up so that we can grow stronger to achieve that next level of society? The obvious solution is a dramatic overhaul on the education system K-12 and college. We need to find a way to send almost everyone to some form of college or technical school. Once we increase our population's skills we'd create more jobs, we'd have a better quality of living, and we'd definately be more healthy.
Nobody ever wants to address this issue but the solution to education issues is not governmental or institutional. We can mandate policy changes to help, but at best they're a drop in the bucket that is the solution. Blacks come from all socio-economic backgrounds but on average have lower test scores and don't go as far in their education. Jews also come from a variety of socio-economic backgrounds but have test scores and education levels that are well above average. I don't believe for a minute that blacks are inherently dumb or that Jews are inherently smart. What I do believe though is that they have two different cultures. Jewish kids come home and their parents tell them that education is important and make them do their homework, and as a result they go far. Quite simply, family is the real issue. If we ha a country filled with parents who took a proactive role in the education of their children and teens, we would be far better off as a society. The kids who grow up and don't go to college, the kids who turn to drugs, etc-- they are almost exclusively drawn to their problems that stem from family issues. But here is a man who articulates it far better than I ever could: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Pk13FfFow

I agree with all of that, I just don't know how you can make bad parents give a ***.
 Odin.Gosuapple
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By Odin.Gosuapple 2010-10-09 22:29:40  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
I'm giving a speech to the President's Advisory Council of my college to end affirmative action in my school. This is my speech, tell me what you think and if you find disagreements. I'm curious what opinion is.
Insofar as you appear to be sincere in trying to better your speech, I will critique your paper without regard to my personal opinion on affirmative action. First and foremost, ANY speech or paper on affirmative action SHOULD address the supreme court ruling on the matter. Second, your viewpoint will alienate a portion of those you are trying to persuade in and of itself, you shouldn't bring up unnecessarily divisive issues such as your personal political feelings; i.e., Bush is dumb, Obama is this or that etc. Adding these things will only dilute your point. Further, in the beginning you refer to what the founding fathers thought. If any of your audience has a background in political science you will immediately lose their esteem. It is widely accepted in the academic community that the founding fathers were a group distinct and divided enough that it makes no sense to say they thought this or they thought that because as a rule there were founding fathers on both sides of any issue. Lastly your tone is far to informal; you should not be using words like pissed or contractions in something like this. Also your grammar needs serious work. Oh and this is a bit of an after thought, but lumping all the pro-affirmative action people together and saying they believe something is argumentative fallacy. It's both ad hominem and a sweeping generalization. Attack the principle not the people or you will lose credibility.

I'm not sure where there are any grammar mistakes. Yea, I agree; I wrote the speech when I was pissed and I've already rewritten most the paper. The founding fathers point was still correct; regardless of who was on what side of the issue its obvious which view point won out at the end of the convention. You may say that it was simply to make sure the constitution would be ratified, but that's still backing down from a fight. They chose to be complacent, which was smart considering the circumstances. The supreme court case is also irrelevant. The court ruled that affirmative action could not include quotas, which they technically don't. However, quota systems are still used but its on the "down low". Either way its a losing argument to quote the supreme court unless I can prove quotas.

The quota thing is not what is important. The supreme court (1) has dissenting opinions which will support your argument and (2) the Supreme court gave their reason for not getting rid of affirmative action out right AND mentioned that it was an issue that they would want to revisit at a later date. Many of those who are pro-affirmative action are familiar with the court's decision and use it to support their view, as such it is something you should address.
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-09 22:34:12  
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
I'm giving a speech to the President's Advisory Council of my college to end affirmative action in my school. This is my speech, tell me what you think and if you find disagreements. I'm curious what opinion is.
Insofar as you appear to be sincere in trying to better your speech, I will critique your paper without regard to my personal opinion on affirmative action. First and foremost, ANY speech or paper on affirmative action SHOULD address the supreme court ruling on the matter. Second, your viewpoint will alienate a portion of those you are trying to persuade in and of itself, you shouldn't bring up unnecessarily divisive issues such as your personal political feelings; i.e., Bush is dumb, Obama is this or that etc. Adding these things will only dilute your point. Further, in the beginning you refer to what the founding fathers thought. If any of your audience has a background in political science you will immediately lose their esteem. It is widely accepted in the academic community that the founding fathers were a group distinct and divided enough that it makes no sense to say they thought this or they thought that because as a rule there were founding fathers on both sides of any issue. Lastly your tone is far to informal; you should not be using words like pissed or contractions in something like this. Also your grammar needs serious work. Oh and this is a bit of an after thought, but lumping all the pro-affirmative action people together and saying they believe something is argumentative fallacy. It's both ad hominem and a sweeping generalization. Attack the principle not the people or you will lose credibility.
I'm not sure where there are any grammar mistakes. Yea, I agree; I wrote the speech when I was pissed and I've already rewritten most the paper. The founding fathers point was still correct; regardless of who was on what side of the issue its obvious which view point won out at the end of the convention. You may say that it was simply to make sure the constitution would be ratified, but that's still backing down from a fight. They chose to be complacent, which was smart considering the circumstances. The supreme court case is also irrelevant. The court ruled that affirmative action could not include quotas, which they technically don't. However, quota systems are still used but its on the "down low". Either way its a losing argument to quote the supreme court unless I can prove quotas.
The quota thing is not what is important. The supreme court (1) has dissenting opinions which will support your argument and (2) the Supreme court gave their reason for not getting rid of affirmative action out right AND mentioned that it was an issue that they would want to revisit at a later date. Many of those who are pro-affirmative action are familiar with the court's decision and use it to support their view, as such it is something you should address.

Lol I was actually hoping you'd address the grammar issue. I've always been a good writer in substance but I hated my english classes, I know I fail at some concepts.

Hmm. I'll review the case law. In all the debates I watched it was done by lawyers who never once mentioned anything law related. I assumed it was a poor approach to the issue because I'm not actually fighting whether it's constitutional or not. I'm more or less arguing on whether its morally, ethically, and pratically needed.
 Odin.Gosuapple
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By Odin.Gosuapple 2010-10-09 22:36:56  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
I'm giving a speech to the President's Advisory Council of my college to end affirmative action in my school. This is my speech, tell me what you think and if you find disagreements. I'm curious what opinion is.
Insofar as you appear to be sincere in trying to better your speech, I will critique your paper without regard to my personal opinion on affirmative action. First and foremost, ANY speech or paper on affirmative action SHOULD address the supreme court ruling on the matter. Second, your viewpoint will alienate a portion of those you are trying to persuade in and of itself, you shouldn't bring up unnecessarily divisive issues such as your personal political feelings; i.e., Bush is dumb, Obama is this or that etc. Adding these things will only dilute your point. Further, in the beginning you refer to what the founding fathers thought. If any of your audience has a background in political science you will immediately lose their esteem. It is widely accepted in the academic community that the founding fathers were a group distinct and divided enough that it makes no sense to say they thought this or they thought that because as a rule there were founding fathers on both sides of any issue. Lastly your tone is far to informal; you should not be using words like pissed or contractions in something like this. Also your grammar needs serious work. Oh and this is a bit of an after thought, but lumping all the pro-affirmative action people together and saying they believe something is argumentative fallacy. It's both ad hominem and a sweeping generalization. Attack the principle not the people or you will lose credibility.
I'm not sure where there are any grammar mistakes. Yea, I agree; I wrote the speech when I was pissed and I've already rewritten most the paper. The founding fathers point was still correct; regardless of who was on what side of the issue its obvious which view point won out at the end of the convention. You may say that it was simply to make sure the constitution would be ratified, but that's still backing down from a fight. They chose to be complacent, which was smart considering the circumstances. The supreme court case is also irrelevant. The court ruled that affirmative action could not include quotas, which they technically don't. However, quota systems are still used but its on the "down low". Either way its a losing argument to quote the supreme court unless I can prove quotas.
The quota thing is not what is important. The supreme court (1) has dissenting opinions which will support your argument and (2) the Supreme court gave their reason for not getting rid of affirmative action out right AND mentioned that it was an issue that they would want to revisit at a later date. Many of those who are pro-affirmative action are familiar with the court's decision and use it to support their view, as such it is something you should address.

Lol I was actually hoping you'd address the grammar issue. I've always been a good writer in substance but I hated my english classes, I know I fail at some concepts.

Hmm. I'll review the case law. In all the debates I watched it was done by lawyers who never once mentioned anything law related. I assumed it was a poor approach to the issue because I'm not actually fighting whether it's constitutional or not. I'm more or less arguing on whether its morally, ethically, and pratically needed.

You had lots of them, most of which you'll pick up on if you just have a friend read it allowed to you.
 Odin.Gosuapple
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By Odin.Gosuapple 2010-10-09 22:38:10  
*out loud rather
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-09 22:38:24  
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
I'm giving a speech to the President's Advisory Council of my college to end affirmative action in my school. This is my speech, tell me what you think and if you find disagreements. I'm curious what opinion is.
Insofar as you appear to be sincere in trying to better your speech, I will critique your paper without regard to my personal opinion on affirmative action. First and foremost, ANY speech or paper on affirmative action SHOULD address the supreme court ruling on the matter. Second, your viewpoint will alienate a portion of those you are trying to persuade in and of itself, you shouldn't bring up unnecessarily divisive issues such as your personal political feelings; i.e., Bush is dumb, Obama is this or that etc. Adding these things will only dilute your point. Further, in the beginning you refer to what the founding fathers thought. If any of your audience has a background in political science you will immediately lose their esteem. It is widely accepted in the academic community that the founding fathers were a group distinct and divided enough that it makes no sense to say they thought this or they thought that because as a rule there were founding fathers on both sides of any issue. Lastly your tone is far to informal; you should not be using words like pissed or contractions in something like this. Also your grammar needs serious work. Oh and this is a bit of an after thought, but lumping all the pro-affirmative action people together and saying they believe something is argumentative fallacy. It's both ad hominem and a sweeping generalization. Attack the principle not the people or you will lose credibility.
I'm not sure where there are any grammar mistakes. Yea, I agree; I wrote the speech when I was pissed and I've already rewritten most the paper. The founding fathers point was still correct; regardless of who was on what side of the issue its obvious which view point won out at the end of the convention. You may say that it was simply to make sure the constitution would be ratified, but that's still backing down from a fight. They chose to be complacent, which was smart considering the circumstances. The supreme court case is also irrelevant. The court ruled that affirmative action could not include quotas, which they technically don't. However, quota systems are still used but its on the "down low". Either way its a losing argument to quote the supreme court unless I can prove quotas.
The quota thing is not what is important. The supreme court (1) has dissenting opinions which will support your argument and (2) the Supreme court gave their reason for not getting rid of affirmative action out right AND mentioned that it was an issue that they would want to revisit at a later date. Many of those who are pro-affirmative action are familiar with the court's decision and use it to support their view, as such it is something you should address.
Lol I was actually hoping you'd address the grammar issue. I've always been a good writer in substance but I hated my english classes, I know I fail at some concepts. Hmm. I'll review the case law. In all the debates I watched it was done by lawyers who never once mentioned anything law related. I assumed it was a poor approach to the issue because I'm not actually fighting whether it's constitutional or not. I'm more or less arguing on whether its morally, ethically, and pratically needed.
You had lots of them, most of which you'll pick up on if you just have a friend read it allowed to you.

Ahh, I just did grammar check on word and didn't read it allowed or anything. Do you know any student reference handbooks for grammar or anything? I should probably pick one up.

The funny thing is when I give speeches I don't even read the paper. I write them as a reference point and I follow the same line of progression but I never look at it. (I think it's annoying when people just read a paper)
 Odin.Gosuapple
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By Odin.Gosuapple 2010-10-09 22:45:28  
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
I'm giving a speech to the President's Advisory Council of my college to end affirmative action in my school. This is my speech, tell me what you think and if you find disagreements. I'm curious what opinion is.
Insofar as you appear to be sincere in trying to better your speech, I will critique your paper without regard to my personal opinion on affirmative action. First and foremost, ANY speech or paper on affirmative action SHOULD address the supreme court ruling on the matter. Second, your viewpoint will alienate a portion of those you are trying to persuade in and of itself, you shouldn't bring up unnecessarily divisive issues such as your personal political feelings; i.e., Bush is dumb, Obama is this or that etc. Adding these things will only dilute your point. Further, in the beginning you refer to what the founding fathers thought. If any of your audience has a background in political science you will immediately lose their esteem. It is widely accepted in the academic community that the founding fathers were a group distinct and divided enough that it makes no sense to say they thought this or they thought that because as a rule there were founding fathers on both sides of any issue. Lastly your tone is far to informal; you should not be using words like pissed or contractions in something like this. Also your grammar needs serious work. Oh and this is a bit of an after thought, but lumping all the pro-affirmative action people together and saying they believe something is argumentative fallacy. It's both ad hominem and a sweeping generalization. Attack the principle not the people or you will lose credibility.
I'm not sure where there are any grammar mistakes. Yea, I agree; I wrote the speech when I was pissed and I've already rewritten most the paper. The founding fathers point was still correct; regardless of who was on what side of the issue its obvious which view point won out at the end of the convention. You may say that it was simply to make sure the constitution would be ratified, but that's still backing down from a fight. They chose to be complacent, which was smart considering the circumstances. The supreme court case is also irrelevant. The court ruled that affirmative action could not include quotas, which they technically don't. However, quota systems are still used but its on the "down low". Either way its a losing argument to quote the supreme court unless I can prove quotas.
The quota thing is not what is important. The supreme court (1) has dissenting opinions which will support your argument and (2) the Supreme court gave their reason for not getting rid of affirmative action out right AND mentioned that it was an issue that they would want to revisit at a later date. Many of those who are pro-affirmative action are familiar with the court's decision and use it to support their view, as such it is something you should address.
Lol I was actually hoping you'd address the grammar issue. I've always been a good writer in substance but I hated my english classes, I know I fail at some concepts. Hmm. I'll review the case law. In all the debates I watched it was done by lawyers who never once mentioned anything law related. I assumed it was a poor approach to the issue because I'm not actually fighting whether it's constitutional or not. I'm more or less arguing on whether its morally, ethically, and pratically needed.
You had lots of them, most of which you'll pick up on if you just have a friend read it allowed to you.

Ahh, I just did grammar check on word and didn't read it allowed or anything. Do you know any student reference handbooks for grammar or anything? I should probably pick one up.

The funny thing is when I give speeches I don't even read the paper. I write them as a reference point and I follow the same line of progression but I never look at it. (I think it's annoying when people just read a paper)

If you're at the college level, I really like Writing & Speaking for Business by William H. Baker. Also you should go in and manually set what you have word checking for. You can have it check for style issues like use of passive voice or ending a sentence with a split infinitive. Your first few papers written with the options on will take you forever as you revise them over and over trying to make sure that everything is active voice and such but it will slowly become ingrained in your writing style.
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-10-09 22:47:02  
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
I'm giving a speech to the President's Advisory Council of my college to end affirmative action in my school. This is my speech, tell me what you think and if you find disagreements. I'm curious what opinion is.
Insofar as you appear to be sincere in trying to better your speech, I will critique your paper without regard to my personal opinion on affirmative action. First and foremost, ANY speech or paper on affirmative action SHOULD address the supreme court ruling on the matter. Second, your viewpoint will alienate a portion of those you are trying to persuade in and of itself, you shouldn't bring up unnecessarily divisive issues such as your personal political feelings; i.e., Bush is dumb, Obama is this or that etc. Adding these things will only dilute your point. Further, in the beginning you refer to what the founding fathers thought. If any of your audience has a background in political science you will immediately lose their esteem. It is widely accepted in the academic community that the founding fathers were a group distinct and divided enough that it makes no sense to say they thought this or they thought that because as a rule there were founding fathers on both sides of any issue. Lastly your tone is far to informal; you should not be using words like pissed or contractions in something like this. Also your grammar needs serious work. Oh and this is a bit of an after thought, but lumping all the pro-affirmative action people together and saying they believe something is argumentative fallacy. It's both ad hominem and a sweeping generalization. Attack the principle not the people or you will lose credibility.
I'm not sure where there are any grammar mistakes. Yea, I agree; I wrote the speech when I was pissed and I've already rewritten most the paper. The founding fathers point was still correct; regardless of who was on what side of the issue its obvious which view point won out at the end of the convention. You may say that it was simply to make sure the constitution would be ratified, but that's still backing down from a fight. They chose to be complacent, which was smart considering the circumstances. The supreme court case is also irrelevant. The court ruled that affirmative action could not include quotas, which they technically don't. However, quota systems are still used but its on the "down low". Either way its a losing argument to quote the supreme court unless I can prove quotas.
The quota thing is not what is important. The supreme court (1) has dissenting opinions which will support your argument and (2) the Supreme court gave their reason for not getting rid of affirmative action out right AND mentioned that it was an issue that they would want to revisit at a later date. Many of those who are pro-affirmative action are familiar with the court's decision and use it to support their view, as such it is something you should address.
Lol I was actually hoping you'd address the grammar issue. I've always been a good writer in substance but I hated my english classes, I know I fail at some concepts. Hmm. I'll review the case law. In all the debates I watched it was done by lawyers who never once mentioned anything law related. I assumed it was a poor approach to the issue because I'm not actually fighting whether it's constitutional or not. I'm more or less arguing on whether its morally, ethically, and pratically needed.
You had lots of them, most of which you'll pick up on if you just have a friend read it allowed to you.
Ahh, I just did grammar check on word and didn't read it allowed or anything. Do you know any student reference handbooks for grammar or anything? I should probably pick one up. The funny thing is when I give speeches I don't even read the paper. I write them as a reference point and I follow the same line of progression but I never look at it. (I think it's annoying when people just read a paper)
If you're at the college level, I really like Writing & Speaking for Business by William H. Baker. Also you should go in and manually set what you have word checking for. You can have it check for style issues like use of passive voice or ending a sentence with a split infinitive. Your first few papers written with the options on will take you forever as you revise them over and over trying to make sure that everything is active voice and such but it will slowly become ingrained in your writing style.

I'll look that up, thanks.
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