Haste Is NOT Exponential...

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2010-06-21
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Haste is NOT exponential...
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:52:28  
Quote:
Explain why having 1/(new/old) has any bearing in this case.

Because I think you are playing with the numbers to try to prove your point.

Because it's the correct formula.


Ok, I'll explain this real slow for you.


Let's say we have 1000 delay with 40% haste

1000 x .6 = 600 delay

Let's say we have 1000 delay with 80% haste

1000 x .2 = 200


Now, we melee for 1800 units of delay

1800/600 = 3 attacks.

1800/200 = 9 attacks (in the same amount of time)

9/3 = 3( times as much) x 100 = 300% increase in number of attacks.

What formula matches this perfectly?

1/(200/600) = 3 (times as much) x 100 = 300%


Quote:
Sorry to say Tiger, but all haste stack affect delay reduction linearly and making haste effect exponential. Some sort of haste affect melee only, yes. like Samba March and Hasso.

You will always get the same delay reduction for every 1% haste you add,

Delay reduction = linear
Haste gain from it = exponential.

Tested numberous time.

You're wrong and you're right at the same time. Look at my last post, I said haste and DW are INDEPENDENT of each other. One has no effect on the other.

If you have 0% haste and 50% DW, you are going to get the same % increase in attack speed than if you have 0% DW and 50% haste. They are both exponential, but not to each other.

Haste is exponential to OTHER HASTE

DW is exponential to OTHER DW GEAR

Neither is exponential to the other.
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 Cerberus.Neojuggernaut
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By Cerberus.Neojuggernaut 2010-05-12 09:52:28  
Haste exponentially increases damage over time. Large math post with a lot of explaining...INCOMING!!!
 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:52:56  
Not only that korpg, look at the in-game clock of that video. The game minutes are going by faster by at least 1.5 to 2 times.
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:52:59  
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Caitsith.Shiroi said:
Quote:
For real? Look at the video before you use it as an example lol. The video is set at a higher play speed than it was recorded as to make the video playlength shorter.

I think you are playing with a lot of lag

Haste doesn't change the animation speed of the songs and spells once they're casted. Video editing does. It's playing at a higher rate. Sorry... Try again.

Err all the animations are normal :s

The songs are at least, maybe slighter faster due to a Sha'ir manteel, and perhaps other spellcasting down, but the animations and faster themselves.
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 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-12 09:53:34  
@Tiger Haste and Delay Reduction just seem to be the same thing on two different fields, like Blind & Flash, they stack and one doesn't harm the other. Dunno if what I'm saying is clear or not, but I know what I mean. >.>
 Leviathan.Duvessa
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By Leviathan.Duvessa 2010-05-12 09:54:27  
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Leviathan.Duvessa said:
Caitsith.Shiroi said:
Quote:
For real? Look at the video before you use it as an example lol. The video is set at a higher play speed than it was recorded as to make the video playlength shorter.

I think you are playing with a lot of lag

Haste doesn't change the animation speed of the songs and spells once they're casted. Video editing does. It's playing at a higher rate. Sorry... Try again.

Err all the animations are normal :s

The songs are at least, maybe slighter faster due to a Sha'ir manteel, and perhaps other spellcasting down, but the animations and faster themselves.

Read the post above the one you just made... If your eye cant catch the animations then watch the rate at which game clock changes.
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:54:28  
Asura.Korpg said:
If he admits that the change is exponential, he would be right.

But haste on itself is not exponential.
My point is the rate of speed in your attacks is exponential. The % increase is exponential. The physical number amount (let's say we get -5 delay per haste) is static, but that doesn't matter. You still attack at a higher % increase the more haste you add.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-05-12 09:54:29  
Based using 600 delay weapon. Do figures with certain amount of haste (old) then subtracting 6 delay ie adding 1% haste to it to get new value and redoing and finding % change

old haste old delay old attack speed (att/sec) delay reduction New delay new attack speed (att/sec) % increase in attack speed (using unrounded attack speeds)
0 600 .1 6 594 .101 1%
5 570 .105 6 564 .106 1.05%
10 540 .111 6 534 .112 1.11%
20 480 .125 6 474 .127 1.25%
30 420 .143 6 414 .145 1.43%
50 300 .200 6 294 .204 2%
70 180 .333 6 174 .345 3.33%
90 60 1 6 54 1.111 10%
99 6 10 6 0 infinite Infinite


Argue that
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 Hades.Arkhelshar
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By Hades.Arkhelshar 2010-05-12 09:56:26  
You both argue on a definition of haste.

1 speak on Attack speed gain while the other speak on Delay reduction modification.

Stop drowsing us with mathematical formula that explain differant variable. They are both right but doesn't help to clarify.


Fact 1.
The more haste you add, the higher the effect. (this is exponential)

If you drop your delay by half 50% you will hit 2 times as much where a linear effect would be 1.5 times much

So people speak here of haste being exponential (Effect on # of hits) and they are right

Fact 2.
The more haste you add, the lesser the delay is reduced. (this is linear) on a 500 delay weapon, each 1% will always reduce haste by 5 delay.

So people speak here of haste(delay reduction) being linear.

Now it look like a battle on who's wrong or who's right. And you both try to prove point exposing these 2 differant variable. And it's childish and pointless.


Dasva's graph explain it well, check delay reduction and effect on speed. Both can be reference as haste. (even if the last line on 99 haste being infinite. it's not. 100 would tho)
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 09:57:11  
Only 100% haste gives 0 delay, chart is wrong. Not 100% sure if haste rounds up, but it certainly doesn't round down.
 
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 Lakshmi.Hypnotizd
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By Lakshmi.Hypnotizd 2010-05-12 09:57:34  
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Argue that
I'll argue your face! :o
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 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-12 09:57:34  
Also, from memory a 75 NIN caps at 45% Reduction from DW. IDK if 50% is possible.
 Sylph.Spency
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By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 09:58:14  
Damnit, quoting is borked...

But that's wrong Dasva
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-12 09:58:32  
Sylph.Spency said:
Damnit, quoting is borked...

But that's wrong Dasva

I'll wrong you
 Cerberus.Neojuggernaut
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By Cerberus.Neojuggernaut 2010-05-12 09:59:46  
Nvm, dasva's post says exactly what I was going to but without all my explanations lol.
 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-12 10:00:15  
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Sylph.Spency said:
Damnit, quoting is borked... But that's wrong Dasva
I'll wrong you

It's only bork when you're saying something useful.



I am boss, this post is not useful.
 Sylph.Spency
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By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-12 10:01:04  
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Sylph.Spency said:
Damnit, quoting is borked...

But that's wrong Dasva

I'll wrong you

It'll be the last time you do...
 Hades.Arkhelshar
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By Hades.Arkhelshar 2010-05-12 10:01:39  
I'm starting to think that the OP knew that all along and just wanted to have something to argue on this morning...
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 Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-12 10:01:49  
Dear Tigerwoods,

Please give us all your actual information showing the following:

A) That there is 1800 units of delay without using your haste formula to prove it, and without anyone else's work with your haste formula to prove it.
B) Where change of haste determines haste's effect. How 1% change in haste leads to a 5% change in its effect. Like your example shows. Show your work without assumptions.
C) Hell, anything you have without assumptions.

Because you are assuming too much. You have no clue as to the actual haste formula is, if there is one, that SE has. Why in the hell would they make something simple complicated? Why would you assume so? Where is the proof?

Because you think you know it, doesn't mean you actually know it.

Thanks,
-Korpg
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 Hades.Arkhelshar
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By Hades.Arkhelshar 2010-05-12 10:02:02  
Well good luck, the info is here, beat it like an horse if you want
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 Caitsith.Ilolatyou
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By Caitsith.Ilolatyou 2010-05-12 10:03:39  
Korpg said:
Because you think you know it, doesn't mean you actually know it.

Oh the irony.
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 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-05-12 10:05:12  
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Only 100% haste gives 0 delay, chart is wrong. Not 100% sure if haste rounds up, but it certainly doesn't round down.
Interesingly you say the same thing as the chart while at the same time saying it is wrong....
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 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-05-12 10:06:33  
Shut the *** up already Korpg, Jesus Christ.
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 10:06:43  
1800 units of delay is simply 30 seconds. You know why there is 1800 units of delay? Because I chose to let each weapon melee for 30 seconds. Replace 1800 w/ any unit of delay. You will get the exact same result.


Let's use 2,015 seconds
2015 x 60 = 120900 units of delay

120900/200 = 604.5 attacks

120900/600 = 201.5 attacks

604.5/201.5 = 3 x 100% = 300% increase.

Again, exact same number.

It's not solely based on that 1800 delay I used in my last calculation.

Do the math, with ANY unit of delay, and you'll get the same result.

Also, it's not "my" haste formula. It's simply the one that is correct. I happen to use it for this reason.


But, I digress. You haven't posted anything of your own yet, now have you?
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 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 10:07:32  
Quote:
Interesingly you say the same thing as the chart while at the same time saying it is wrong....
Your chart has 99% haste as 0 delay. That's what I'm calling wrong. When did I say the same thing? I never claimed 99% haste to be 0 delay.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-05-12 10:08:46  
Sylph.Spency said:
Damnit, quoting is borked...

But that's wrong Dasva
Yeah I learned it from Scragg. Crazy admins and there adding things that hardly anyone uses. You can also see how too and do alot of stuff but clicking the reference page link at bottom of the page
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-05-12 10:10:36  
For someone who always boasts about their degree, Korpg, you sure don't know how to do simple math.
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