XI Was So Challenging, It Brought People Together

Does it matter? Jobs that can dps= dps jobs. BLM, RNG, WAR, COR, BLU, RDM, NIN, SMN, BST, those are all DPS jobs and SE clearly want them to be one.

Also you keep trying to bring balance issues in this discussion, but I don't see how it's relevant.

It's almsot like that's exactly what the people on this forum do in regards to XIV's battle system because they refuse to look below the surface.

eg. Essylt and Draylo

Turnabout is fair play.

Except I am looking below the surface when I say that jobs in the same role in XIV have minimal differences. Not because that is some kind of oversight, but because they are deliberately designed to be like that.

You yourself said that all jobs are interchangeable within their role. In order to achieve that, SE needs to design encounters considering only generic templates of a role (i.e. a tank, a healer, a DD, as opposed to specific jobs). And for this design to work, the jobs need to fit very neatly into these templates or the entire thing falls apart. That is why every tank, for example, has a dmg combo, an enmity combo, an aoe threat generator and 3 levels of defensive cooldowns (light, medium and heavy). The only exception to that is provoke being exclusive to GLD and even that is, I imagine, a leftover from 1.0 days, rather than a conscious decision by the current team.

In my personal opinion, the problem with FFXI is honestly that you literally had to make this game your 2nd job. I felt married to this game because everything I did involved a ton of time and you had to stay with the pack and keep up to date. FFXI was never for casuals.

FFXIV on the other hand is totally catered to casuals with everything being solo and having queued instances. Granted yes, the accessibility is tremendously better in FFXIV but the whole MMO experience is null and void as the only time you really interact with people is when you do instances that require more than just yourself.

But at the same time, I don't miss FFXI's demanding *** and stupid gimmicks just to make the game a tiresome chore (i.e. camping HNMs with 21-24 hour windows and having to compete with 100s of other players for the same damn item because there was no decent alternative, specific jobs being only viable, etc). That ***wasn't fun. That stuff was just borderline frustrating and annoying. Doing 10 years of jumping stupid hoops was enough for me.

Plain and simple truth:

FFXI at its prime = too hardcore
FFXIV = too easy

There needs to be a good medium. But lately it seems the whole MMORPG genre is just becoming a faded interest in the world of gaming as MOBAs and free-to-play/quick paced games where you don't have to invest that much time and not have to spend money on a monthly subscription are the new thing now. MMORPGs have lost their spark.

And after your first MMORPG, it honestly don't seem to rekindle that love on the 2nd time around with another one. It's just not the same. It's just a one time experience that is nice to have but not again.

Best thing that MMORPGs in general bring to the table is the great friendships and experiences with other people. That is the number 1 aspect of any MMORPG but without that, why even play.

If by fit a template, you mean using damage abilities in a proper rotation and maintaining buffs, then yes, they are remarkably similar. Reminds me of literally every MMO ever, including XI.

If you mean they do literally the same thing, then no.

I'm not being "an entitled little thing." I'm not expecting handouts on silver platters from people. I was commenting on how FFXI brought people together.
I was in a free company in XIV and no one spoke in there. I did some dungeons, and there was no communication between us.
When I played XIV, the only shouts were from RMT's. That IS my experience in the game.
I know that when you did a quest, arrows pointed to where to go, and all the ??? were glowing, I hated that. That's exactly why people didn't need to help each other.
In FFXI, if I needed an xp pt or help killing a monster, beating a mission, w/e, I shouted and someone sent a tell. Or someone else shouted and I sent the tell. That forced people to speak to each other and make friends. In FFXIV, you flag that request, and the system sets up your party for you. There's no need to make any contacts.
XIV is a solo game with monthly fees. It's not open world and the system generates parties for you. If it was set up as a solo game where you queue up to do dungeons and get transported to the map, in the same way any shooter with no fees works, the game would be the same as it is now.
1 hooked me from the first day, the other didn't. End of story.
But since you can't really make a case for why XIV is superior, your only defense is to belittle me for preferring XI and calling me "entitled" when I was clearly just stating my experience in both games.

That's your first mistake.

XI discussions were so challenging, it tore people apart

Why are we talking about diversity in XIV classes? For most content the different classes you take make a lick of difference but when it comes to end game each class has its advantage which makes a huge difference.

The game is actually balanced really well, a lot better than XI.

You can't even make an argument against that. Saying all the classes are the same is pretty BS too, you clearly haven't played every class. The core of each class is the same: Tanks tank, healers heal and DPS hit stuff. The mechanics are quite different though with each job and the differing mechanics make them all interesting options in different content.

My biggest problem is how the gear lockout often means you can't easily swap classes in early raiding because of how you basically have to prioritize one class/job. You were able to switch SMN/BLM and BRD/MCH pretty easily though but required a lot of work on their part to get suitable weapons for both jobs.


Overall every job feels like its supposed to, the only exception may be BRD but it does a decent job of creating a new identity for itself. NIN and DRK fill their roles nicely you just need to drop the FFXI expectation for those jobs and actually think of what they are supposed to represent.


By making every job viable in casual content they don't really ostracize players. I mean look at XI now, where you see stupid shouts of people asking for MDB+40% blms and only Blu mages for APEX parties or low level UNMs. Though I'm pretty sure that just had to do with sheepish, ignorant playerbase of XI but the idea of balance is pretty well thought out in XIV.

I gave a pretty specific example of what I meant in my post. Try reading maybe?

To be fair your example falls apart really quick in regards to end-game fights.

PLD, DRK and WAR all function on different planes in XIV. The PLD has the unique STR debuff that will greatly lower physical damage and for some fights this could mean a lot. Their ability to block also makes physical attacks seem like childsplay. DRK on the other hand has the INT debuff and several strong buffs to magic resistance. While they can tank physical damage and have some utilities such as Parry to deal with it they will still not reach the same level of mitigation a PLD would. WAR on the other hand filled a much more supportive role (At least after their adjustments). In end game you would use a WAR to apply slashing debuff and to apply the -%DMG down on the boss. They also had better Snap threat than other classes which made them ideal for quickly picking up adds.


While these differences mean nothing on casual content whenever you get into raiding these small things mean a world of difference.

This is just with tanks too. There is a huge difference between NIN ,DRG and MNK that makes them competitive in certain areas. Same can be said for SMN/BLK and even MCH/BRD (Though a little less apparent with the latter).

And that's exactly what I meant about not looking beyond the surface.

If you ignore all the intricacies, you can make anything sound cookie cutter. The combat system forces some amount of similarity (just lkike in XI), but playing the jobs at high level is a completely different beast.

I enjoy DRG and NIN a great deal, but I can't stand playing MNK at all.

Ffxi is so unique, cannot compare to anything.

That was/is a mistake that many players make in games like these, thinking they need to have the latest and greatest gear in order to have fun. Do you happen to also feel life is too demanding if you aren't driving around in a 2016 McLaren between your $30M luxury condo in New York City and $25M home in the Hamptons? There's nothing wrong with aspiring for more, but you're doing something wrong if you can't have fun without those things.

I've played alongside a lot of people that had full lives outside of the game - family, job, friends - and still found time to log in almost every day, enjoying the time they spent with the game. The fact that FFXI could cater to both those more casual players and the more hardcore at the same time was one of its greatest selling points to me.

How does it fall apart exactly? I didn't say there were no differences, I just said they were miniscule. These templates I mentioned do allow for some wiggle room, just not a whole lot.

The only reason you think that having a 10% debuff going this or that way amounts to a world of difference is because there aren't really any other differences to be had. Compare this with NIN tanking in XI which differs very significantly from that on a PLD, for example.

The funniest thing is, even with this amount of homogenization, the raiding community STILL managed to find a way to exclude some jobs and PLD became non-grata for a whole raiding tier (not to mention DRG being shunned all the way until 3.0).

I think what happened is that, in FFXI if you don't have these things or that things, what you can do is very limited.

On the other hand irl if you can't afford an iPhone you can still use $60 phone and accomplish the same result.

FFXI doesn't have weekly lockout, and each job requires 100-200 gears to function properly, by comparison it's quite demanding to gear up one job to be fully functional.

If by raid tier, you mean the world first progression part, then yeah. A month of esoterics was all that was needed to make Paladin completely viable.

Dragoons only rough patch in regards to joining raid teams was immediately after 2.4 where Ninja was outputting more damage and had higher survivability due to a proper M.Def stat. This was fixed within weeks and Dragoon was perfectly capable of competing with Monk and Ninja in terms of damage on anything in the game. And has remained in such a position since then.

The differences aren't miniscule they are very large. You clearly have never lead a competitive raid team in FFXIV. If you have raided you were most likely late to the party when gear was abundant or you progressed so slow where you didn't notice the difference.

Team comps were everything and could easily make a difference in whether you win or lose.

PLD was insanely weak for Alex. Most of the damage was magical which made DRK a better choice. Also DRK and WAR dealt superior damage to PLD. Most groups also weren't running MNK because their contribution to damage was far less than that of a NIN or a DRG. The lack of MNK meant the lack of the INT debuff which DRK could easily provide. WAR was also insanely overpowered offering high damage and really good utility.

The differences are only small to you because either:

A). You were a casual player who knew no better.
B). You never actually experienced the game and you are making sweeping generalizations.
C). You are ignorant.

You can pick which one you are, but until you actually know and understand the game and its intricacies at higher level play don't comment on it.


Again, this only matters in high level play. For lower tier content the classes you picked would make a lick of difference. Which IMO is great design because it lead to classes not being excluded from mundane events.

I don't play XIV but from what you are saying in above post, you are saying jobs in FFXIV are different because of content mechanics and pt synergy with other role. While Essylt was talking about how the job is played.

I didn't take that as his argument. I took his argument is how their roles are in a raid.

It would be harder to make an argument that all the jobs are the same when they all have varying mechanics.

The only exception to this would be BRD/MCH which are probably the most similar.

To be fair, his argument is based on Cherches claim of all jobs are interchangeable. Based in what you said about raid it's Cherches claim that false.

They are interchangeable because SE makes them deal a similar amount of damage (when played correctly), not because they're mechanically the same. For world first progression you might want certain skills from certain jobs but for anything that ISN'T world first you can bring any job and clear with because your damage won't be ***since ranged jobs have about the same damage, melee have about the same damage etc.

This means you won't be excluded from high level content just because you choose to play x job instead of y (or forced to level it just to get gear for the job you do enjoy playing)

Outside of top tier raiding, this argument definitely applies. It isn't that fact that they deal similar damage though, it is the fact that how much damage they do matters less.



In early progression with limited gear, every ounce of DPS matters and that means certain jobs may be excluded. Most of the top groups are aware of this though and adjust their players to the meta.

Also if you are doing time trials you will for sure want to make sure you have the right setup for it.

In that case FFXI isn't too different. In any low to mid tier content in FFXI, most DPS class deals similar amount of dmg, the only class that's probably behind is MNK. It's really the NM mechanics, such as dread spikes, aoe doom and such that's stopping people from using certain class to DPS.

XI is very different. Top tier raid content in XI is horrendously exclusive. No amount of gearing is going to allow the currently excluded jobs from being viable.

Top tier raids in XIV can be done on literally every job once recommended ilvl has been reached. The first month for world first groups is the only time you see any job 'exclusion' from people who aren't sheeple who take statements about job performance out of context.

Said world first groups are preformed statics with people with multiple jobs ready and mastered so they can swap into any set-up the raid requires to be cleared well below recommended ilvl.

What you're saying is basically "optimal setup still exists in xiv". Because certain setup performs more optimally than another, thus allowing top raid group to get clear below recommend ilv.

Again, it's the same as XI. If we are all running in ilv 150 gears now I bet T4 and kirin woc can be meleed quite easily. We are currently stuck with mage or pet setup because our available gear ilv isn't high enough to melee these things with ease.



Yes and I specifically pointed out why, it's because of NM mechanics, not because of DPS. I'm not sure if it's job balance issue, seems more like content design issues to me.

IMO, the only serious job balance issue that I can see atm is MNK WS being underpowered and GEO overpowere(or BRD being under powered, one way or another)

Speaking of content design issue, I don't understand why it must be able to replace every single DPS in every single situation to have good MMO design. In XI some NM takes good magic dmg, so you use magic dmg DDs. Some NM takes good physical dmg, so you use physical dmg DD. Some NM is hard to melee due to aoe, so you use ranged dps, the list goes on. This is variety. FFXI has been about changing job for different situations for many years, instead of trying to be absolutely balanced so you don't have to lv up a new char for raid or pvp like other games. You guys make it sound like FFXI is a horrible MMO because all jobs aren't clones of each other, but that's not the end of the world with how this game works.

This may sound crazy, but hang with me here, a lot of people hate playing casters. Healing, de/buffing or nuking. I know, people preferring something else? Absolutely ***' crazy.

But it's a legit thing. And people hate being pidgeonholed into playing jobs they hate to get gear for jobs they love but will never get to play in relevant content because the job they hate is the only thing viable.

Meta: PLD/RUN/COR/GEO/WHM/SCH/BLM

Usable: PUP/SMN/BLU/RDM/BRD/BST

Unviable: WAR/SAM/DRG/MNK/DRK/DNC/THF/RNG/NIN

RIP 41% of the games jobs. 27% might get to see the light of day if exceptionally well geared. Leaving only 32% of the games jobs usable in most, if not all, content.

Oh look, entirely casters or tanks, who from most videos I see, don't actually get to do much besides mitigate damage and maintain enmity through flash and cures.

And I was never just talking about job balance. I stated XIV was an extremely well balanced game.

Even with mechanics where physical/magical damage is more advantageous, they're still completely doable without the damage type, just with added difficulty. Because that just makes sense.

So you rate BLU BST SMN BRD PUP RDM "usable" but WAR SAM DRG DRK DNC THF RNG NIN "unviable" >.> I think it's more like you are biased. The only job on your unviable list that seriously need a boost is MNKs ws dmg. Every other jobs are totally viable in content that BLU are used, and would still top parse if properly geared.

The reason why BLM is meta on high tier content is again, content design favors offensive caster class. If those NM has a bit lower evasion I wouldn't be surprised if a pt of ranger can kill T4 as efficiently as BLMs, considering ranged DD jobs are already capable of killing T3 and below efficiently before NM eva nerf. When there's only one real "offensive caster" job in FFXI and content favors offensive caster because of aoe and high evasion, it can't be helped that people are forced to lv one type of DD job because there's only one job can do what BLMs do, unlike melee class that there are multiples and people can choose melee class freely.

That being said, any content that you use a melee class, they are quite interchangable as well. Anything you kill on BLU can be killed on WAR DRK NIN whatever.