Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better!: RDM Guide

I'll throw that into the queue of things to test when I'm home, for science.

Edit:unless someone beats me to it ofc.

The entire Dia line of spells is affected. Bug report has been submitted.

I don't believe this is the only issue. It doesn't explain that all my other calculated durations track perfectly (and those assume saboteur +14 from empy gloves affects duration). Just had some testing with Silence that somewhat backs it up but I'd like to do more before I throw the numbers out. I don't have conclusive proof of anything, only a hunch.

I of course may be a dumb-dumb (and may be one even if I am correct in this). I'm keeping track and will do more testing this week, but its time to actually play the game for now.

I just talked to the SE team - They confirmed they don't know what I am talking about or how to fix it. They did mention their FF14 cash shop.

The Dia thing as been around a while unfortunately. It got posted at the start of last year, then I refound it in September of last year. I hope it gets fixed though, but not holding my breath. On the plus side Dia was the only debuff that the augment composure was not working on for duration.

I'm not sure what specifically you are saying here.

I can tell you that Dia spells are the only ones that are not affected by composure gear with 100% certainty.

I can also tell you I can calculate to the milisecond the duration of all other enfeebles accurately with the exception of the ones that have some kind of randomizer like bind and gravity.

Edit: What you may be running into is mobs with guaranteed resist states, like the testing that Argisto has been doing for a while. But even then, what you would see there is a debuff that is 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8th duration of the calculated/expected duration.

Additionally, if you do any flooring, your durations can be off by anywhere from 1-15 seconds. Do not floor anywhere in your calcs.

This is a silly question, but what about Bio? It's technically Dark Magic so I have no idea if any Enfeebling duration stuff affects it.

If not, do the Ratri Sollerets affect it? Obviously RDM can't wear them, but you get my point.

Bio is unaffected by Enfeebling duration bonus. Probably because it's technically "Dark Magic" category and not "Enfeebling Magic".

Composure doesn't affect it either, not sure if it's not meant to (probably?) or if it shares the issue Dia is having.

The odd ball here is rather Klimaform.
It's a buff but it's not enhancing magic, as such it shouldn't be affected by Composure, yet it is and ironically RDM can get longer duration than SCH main because of that, lulz.
(Enha+ duration gear rightfully does not affect Klimaform).


Now though, there's a small space for personal interpretation.
The Composure (JA) description says it boosts "Enhancements cast on you through white or black magic". And in this sense, it doesn't affect exclusively enhancing magic category spells, I suppose.

Ice/Shock/Blaze Spikes are Black Magic, but Enhancing Magic.

Not sure if I misunderstood your last post, or if you misunderstood what I meant with my previous one D:

What I meant that usually Composure is said to boost the duration of Enhancing Magic, as such it shouldn't affect Klimaform (which is a buff, but it's not enhancing).
If you read the description clearly though, it doesn't say "enhancing magic skill" specifically, it says white or black buffs cast on yourself.
And Klimaform is a Black Magic (category) Dark Magic (skill) buff, as such it does make sense that Composure (JA) affects it.

I guess BG wiki should be updated though, since it says "Triples (+200%) the duration of self-targeted enhancing magic spells but capped to 30 minutes".
Either BGwiki text is right and Klimaform is the exception, or the BGwiki text is wrong and Klimaform perfectly fits the in-game description.

Yes, I was being intentionally vague, my apologies. I do appreciate the tips; thankfully I have the durations and testing dialed in. I'm seeing a discrepancy in Dia 3 timer under Saboteur. I've also done some testing after receiving conflicting information concerning whether the Saboteur + from empy gloves apply to duration or not.

I'll outline my findings a separate post shortly. Thanks again.

Edit: Part of this test has been invalidated by an oversight and this will be edited. Take or leave the rest, up to you. Cheers and apologies for the misinformation.

TL;DR: Gloves grant +14% duration... and something is still borked with (Saboteur) Dia 3 duration, beyond the Composure bonus.

Alright, so, after both reading and hearing conflicting information concerning whether the bonus to Saboteur from empyrean gloves applies to duration (or only potency), I decided to test it myself. While this knowledge may not be new to some, hopefully I can elucidate a little, clean up the wiki, and provide a modern reference. Edit: Or I can bugger the tests. That works too.

My findings more or less indicate that everyone is partially correct. The data indicates to me that while the gloves do grant a duration bonus, it is only seen on an NM. Using the gloves on a normal mob does not give any increase to duration beyond the 100% from Saboteur. One theory would be that the effect is capped at 100%, but I say nothing with certainty.

Corrected text: It appears that the Saboteur bonus from Empy Gloves applies to duration as well.

I cast 4 diffrent debuffs at a time to give a good spread. Frazzle III, Dia III, Silence, Paralyze II. My goal was to gather maximum data from minimum time. There should be no interaction between them, in fact, casting Frazzle first is a tiny bit more insurance against a partial duration/resist. Thankfully, there were none (ML and gear are crazy, yo).

I have 20/20 ranks in enfeebling duration JP (and some ML to boot).

I used a set linked at the end for each cast.

For timing, I used the time in seconds from my chat log (effect landing, and effect wearing off). I am not worried about a one-second variation, which is frequently present due to transmission time/etc.

I used our buddy, Calfcleaving Chapuli, in Yahse, as my non-NM test mob.

I used Urmahlullu (T3 Zitah) as my NM.

The numbers. Apologize for the formatting, my forum markdown skills are woefully absent. I tried to use the table feature and failed miserably.

Please note the Dia 3 times, more on that at the end.

On Chapuli:
Frazzle 3 - Base: 321 (expected 320), Sabo: 621 (620), Sabo w/Gloves: 621 (620)
Dia 3- Base 201 (200), Sabo: 401 (380), Sabo/G: 401 (405.2)
Silence- Base 140 (140), Sabo: 261 (260), Sabo/G: 261 (260)
Paralyze II- Base 140 (140), Sabo: 260 (260), Sabo/G: 278 (276.8)

My take on this test: Almost all as expected. Saboteur adds 100% to the base, and JP add 20s after that.
Dia 3 is discrepant.
Expected Dia III duration using [Duration *(1 + Saboteur)] + 20:
180 * 2 + 20 = 380 seconds for Saboteur
180 * 2.14 + 20 = 405.2 seconds for Saboteur w/gloves.
Where is the extra 20s coming from under Saboteur? Why is the number the same with the gloves on?

On Urma:
Frazzle 3 - Base: 320 (320), Sabo: 395 (395), Sabo/G: 438 (437)
Dia 3 - Base: 200 (200), Sabo: Test 1:250 Test 2: 250 (245), Sabo/G: 251 (270.2)
Silence - Base: 141 (140), Sabo: 171 (170), Sabo/G: 188 (186.8)
Paralyze - Base: 141 (140), Sabo: 171 (170), Sabo/G: 188 (186.8)

All durations are increased for 25/39% over base... except for Dia 3.
Expected Dia III duration using [Duration *(1 + Saboteur)] + 20:
180 * 1.25 + 20 = 245 seconds for Saboteur
180 * 1.39 + 20 = 270.2 seconds for Saboteur w/ Gloves


About Dia 3: FWIW, for testing sake, I had a 99 friend (129 JP, with 1 rank in enf. duration), test on a normal mob, and he timed a duration of 183 and 181 seconds with saboteur, and approx 360 seconds with saboteur (no gloves)... This indicates that the base duration is still, in fact, 180 seconds and not much else.

Interestingly enough, the Dia 3 duration on an NM under Sabo (gloves or not) is 1.25 x 200. I wonder if Dia 3 is using a variant of the normal enfeebling formula. Regardless, something beyond my understanding is at play here. It may be that my understanding of the formula is flawed, and the way I am applying it gives me correct durations for every other spell but Dia, or there may be something else at work here.

For the record, the set:

Base and Sabo test set (add Lethargy +3 hands for sabo bonus testing)
sets.exported={
main="Naegling",
sub={ name="Thibron", augments={'TP Bonus +1000',}},
range="Ullr",
ammo="Chapuli Arrow",
head={ name="Nyame Helm", augments={'Path: B',}},
body={ name="Nyame Mail", augments={'Path: B',}},
hands={ name="Nyame Gauntlets", augments={'Path: B',}},
legs={ name="Nyame Flanchard", augments={'Path: B',}},
feet={ name="Nyame Sollerets", augments={'Path: B',}},
neck="Incanter's Torque",
waist={ name="Acuity Belt +1", augments={'Path: A',}},
left_ear="Malignance Earring",
right_ear={ name="Leth. Earring +1", augments={'System: 1 ID: 1676 Val: 0','Accuracy+12','Mag. Acc.+12','"Dbl.Atk."+4',}},
left_ring="Stikini Ring +1",
right_ring="Shneddick Ring",
back={ name="Aurist's Cape +1", augments={'Path: A',}},
}

You're absolutely wrong about (and empy gloves) not providing any bonus on non-NMs with saboteur. I'll try to get some screen shots later to show.

Happy to be proven wrong, always the chance the gloves didnt equip when I thought they did or I clicked something wrong. In fact, if you feel that strongly, I don't mind going back and checking it once more.

Edit: No need to screenshot, it appears you are correct here. Just tested with Paralyze. Expected 276.8 seconds, chat log says 278. Not quite sure how the gloves got unequipped.
Thank you for speaking up. I'll amend as appropriate.

I was in the process of writing my own Debuffed/Debuffing that at cast would calculate expected duration. I have it working for the most part for RDM. I'll do a few screen shots later anyway to show how I do it in game.

Edit: If you're still noticing discrepancies later, here is the order of operations for the calculations.

1. Base Duration

2. Multiply by Saboteur bonus

3. Add Flat Duration Bonuses

4. Multiply by % bonus on gear

5. Multiply by % bonus on augment

6. Multiply by % bonus from composure

Awesome, would love to have a look when you have it done. I have been following the same order of operations.

All of my durations for debuffing are spot on (assuming sabo etc, unfortunately not dynamic as you are aware) now.

Issue being that with Dia as I outlined above. I've just changed it without the formula for now.

Ulgar the reason your Sabo numbers are off generally is because you're calculating in the wrong order. Saboteur ONLY applies to the base duration of a spell. Not to the bonus you get from JP.

Dia III is base 180 seconds so, for an NM

1. 180 * 1.25 = 225

2. 225 + 20 (JP) = 245

Dia III using Empy hands + Sabo

1. 180 * 1.39 = 250.2

2. 250.2 + 20 (JP) = 270.2

This is in reference to this:

Edit: That is why your calculated durations are off on Sabo.

Edit2: I think I'm misunderstanding your numbers.. is the value in parenthesis your calculated duration or the real duration.

Numbers in parentheses are the calculated expected durations.

I don't have any idea how to do pictures on teh site anymore. But I've got some data for you. Interestingly enough, there seems to be more off about the duration of Dia III than just composure not affecting it.

Also interesting, my silence durations are also off by about 4 seconds every time. Not sure why.

Dia durations being off is what led me down this rabbit hole at all, but happy to see someone else confirming it. There is some unknown interaction with saboteur at play here. I have calculated some alternate formulas that give the same numbers we see in game, but have zero indications of why they would exist, so I'll leave that out here. Suffice to say I've adjusted my timer for it and I'm happy with it just being bugged.

I can say with certainty that in my gear silence is exactly as calced, I regularly start casting when my timer hits 0 just before I get the chat log message and reapply with zero issues.

Doing this with debuffs is how I keep amused killing Shin a couple times a day.

No Duration, No Composure, Sabo Casts



No Duration, No Composure, Sabo Casts + Empy Hands

I'm on my phone but at a brief glance your Dia 3 numbers are matching my test precisely. 250 seconds if sabo is used, regardless of whether gloves are used or not. I calculated the expected durations in my post, I'm sure you've already done likewise.

Edit: I'll chalk your first test being 251 up to the same reason I ignore the 1 second on some of my results.

yeah, so, my working theory is that this is one instance where the game doesn't actually floor the result to the nearest second, so almost always the duration is calculated + 1, it actually rounds up.

I'm 5/5 Enfeebling Duration merits, so my times are a bit longer than yours for the most part. What, I must have dropped my 5/5 duration for immunobreak a while back.

I've been messing around with Dia today and it's duration formula is completely different. There was an old formula listed on older versions of the Enfeebling Magic page on BG but it was also incorrect. I think I've come up with a working formula, but in the main enfeebling magic duration formula there is a "Gear that lists seconds" term that I have no idea what it is referring to. I'm not sure if it's an error or if there is actually some gear out there with duration listed in seconds that I need to test with. I am leaning towards it being an error, as that term is not listed on the JPWiki enfeebling duration page.

Either way, here is the Dia formula I've worked out:

(((Base duration + Enfeebling Duration Job Points + Enfeebling Duration Merits + Relic Head Augment) x Duration Listed on Gear x Duration Augments on Gear) x Saboteur) + (Stymie Job Points x (Duration Listed on Gear + Duration Augments on Gear))

Nothing is floored during the equation. Interestingly, any decimals at the end are rounded up as mentioned above.

If there is duration gear that lists seconds I'll retest and update the formula. In the meantime, please test try it out.


I have confirmed with my own testing that the Saboteur +14 from Lethargy Gantherots is not being applied to Dia line spells only.

Testing with Dia to cut down on time waiting (60 second base duration). Above formula used for expected times. M lvl 33 RDM, no duration merits.

Target: Calfcleaving Chapuli
===========Expected/Actual===========
Naked + Saboteur: 160/160 seconds
Empy Hands + Saboteur: 172/160 seconds
Target: Bounding Belinda
===========Expected/Actual===========
Naked + Saboteur: 100/100 seconds
Empy Hands + Saboteur: 112/100 seconds

Time to submit another bug report :/


Your Silence duration is off only because many NM's, including Asida, have cumulative magic resistance that can induce a duration penalty even on the first cast for certain spells.

I did see that your bug report got moved to "Accepted Bugs." Good job and thank you for reporting it.