Obamas War Without Congress Approval

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Obamas war without congress approval
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-16 00:27:02  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.

Erm, citation needed? I don't hold to the idea that the Bible is infallible, I'm just wondering where you get off calling the original writers sick and twisted.

Sick and twisted might be a bit harsh, but blatantly dishonest fits the bill pretty well. They claim to be people they aren't and claim to witness things they did not.

daemun said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Odin.Godofgods said: »
quick question...

I now ive been gone a few pages, but when did it switch from "Obamas war without congress approval" to a religious topic debate?

At what point was the topic not about religion? It's about a war with ISIS, who are a pseudo-religious militant political movement. Someone made some kind of "don't group all religious people in with radicals" argument and got the appropriate response to the tone they took.
As much as they claim to be, I was enlightened by a co-worker's take on the whole ordeal. It isn't religious at all, it's merely a facade for want of control. That is pretty much a great synopsis of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, Jihad, and many other notoriable "religious" wars/cleansings.

Hence, I called them pseudo-religious. We all know they aren't trying to reclaim their holy land, at least not at the higher levels, the people on the ground might think that's what's going on, though.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:27:16  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.

Erm, citation needed? I don't hold to the idea that the Bible is infallible, I'm just wondering where you get off calling the original writers sick and twisted.

I've read the piece of ***.

Okay, so you're dense, incredibly biased, and judgmental. I guess that's not new.
Nope, nope but yes, I am judgemental.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:27:52  
daemun said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.

Either way I wouldn't make the argument of using a religion's doctrine to further a war for power and control as 100% secular by any stretch of the imagination.
The entire concept of domination is secular. Look at tenants from various religions. The vast majority of popular religions have an overarching concept of meek or unassuming life. The times domination have been interjected have been secular concepts introduced by proclaimed followers. Wolves in sheep's clothing if you will.

Lol what? the entire point of religion is to dominate the masses...
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-09-16 00:28:46  
daemun said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.
Divinely inspired and projected concepts aren't necessarily the same thing.

First half of the book is mostly anecdotal (according to several leading historical theologians now as well as myself via research), and it is entirely nullified by the second half which consists of a theme of "put others before yourself and do not focus on gaining personal wealth, as it is fleeting".

So, when you take those crazy and twisted rules and teachings from the Old Testament and apply that they were merely a teaching method, not a literal list to follow; it completely changes the value and credibility. These were simple people (comparatively to today), and those parallels were by extension simple and oft exaggerated simply to prove a point. At the time, to a majority populous unable to read, therefore they needed to grasp the concept through hearing it read aloud.
Sounds more like the latter half is explaining Aesop's Fables rather than the Bible.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:28:51  
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Sick and twisted is time-relative, and unless you're making the assertion that the Bible was written solely as a political tool to control the masses, sick and twisted doesn't really fit the bill. High out-of-their-minds on opiates? Maybe.

Are you making the assertion that it wasn't? I mean don't get me wrong the thing did a damn good job of that, but damn.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-16 00:29:13  
Yeah man, those Jainists want to control everything.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:29:30  
Jetackuu said: »
Lol what? the entire point of bad religions is to dominate the masses...
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By daemun 2014-09-16 00:29:43  
Jetackuu said: »
lolno, just no...

but nice job on continuing the trend of being a Christian apologist as always, at least you're consistent.
Christiann Apologetic, yes. Apologist? No. I try to gain any and all knowledge I can. This knowledge has changed my concept of my faith, numerous times. As has stimuli provided by my life experiences. However, to this day, not only do I still feel the presence of a higher order than our mere 86yr expected lives and the "American Dream" of get what you can while you can, then live as hard as you can until you can't; but also find that the best explanation for the times scientific theory or our grasp of scientific principles is a Divine being establishing balance in an otherwise easily skewed existence.

EDIT: That said, I still feel bad when non believers have bad experiences with people who represent the Crown wrongfully. It hurts me to know that they are now further from life abundant thanks to someone claiming to be living the Christian lifestyle.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:30:23  
Regardless of the time, saying it's ok to rape and pillage those you conquer is very sick and twisted, no matter how "cool" it may sound to certain minds.

Not to mention the other severely deranged things the god of the bible supports.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:31:43  
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Yeah man, those Jainists want to control everything.
I do apologize, I meant Abrahamic religions, carry on.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:32:04  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Lol what? the entire point of bad religions is to dominate the masses...
ftfy

only if you like being redundant, but "bad" is relative/subjective, if the goal is to control the masses then if it does a poor job then it would be considered "bad" but if you're talking about good vs bad, well then sure.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-16 00:32:09  
daemun said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.

Either way I wouldn't make the argument of using a religion's doctrine to further a war for power and control as 100% secular by any stretch of the imagination.
The entire concept of domination is secular. Look at tenants from various religions. The vast majority of popular religions have an overarching concept of meek or unassuming life. The times domination have been interjected have been secular concepts introduced by proclaimed followers. Wolves in sheep's clothing if you will.

Eh, you're trying to equate domination as an instinct with domination as a practice of societal control. They aren't really the same thing. Using a position of power to manipulate masses isn't uniquely religious, but it isn't intrinsically secular, either. As long as there has been geopolitical subtext, there has been religion to hide behind.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:32:16  
Actually, I'm done arguing with Jet in particular. He already knows that 90% of everything he says is opinion driven and based on extremes, plus he makes no attempt to cite his claims. I'll tag in when someone else has a fact-based and valid argument.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:33:36  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Actually, I'm done arguing with Jet in particular. He already knows that 90% of everything he says is opinion driven and based on extremes, plus he makes no attempt to cite his claims. I'll tag in when someone else has a fact-based and valid argument.

Not at all, do I need to come back to Port Jeuno and teach you who's boss again?

edit: I am not going to cite common knowledge, or easily researched things, it's a waste of time, and most of the time the people it would be posted to refute would ignore it anyway and claim victory, that includes you.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:34:30  
Jetackuu said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Actually, I'm done arguing with Jet in particular. He already knows that 90% of everything he says is opinion driven and based on extremes, plus he makes no attempt to cite his claims. I'll tag in when someone else has a fact-based and valid argument.

Not at all, do I need to come back to Port Jeuno and teach you who's boss again?

Just make sure I'm afk again first.
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 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-16 00:36:36  
Rape was a spoil of war until very recently. The world is a *** up place and humans are no exception. We're at a time in human progress that is so detached from many historically common horrorifics that we cannot fathom their normality in the past. The fact that those things are included in the Bible do not speak ill of the it - it was written in the Bronze age after all. The reason those things are brought up is in correspondence with fundamentalist and literalistic interpretations of the Bible, because if it is taken literally, so too must those writings that are unacceptable by today's society.
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By daemun 2014-09-16 00:37:09  
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Sounds more like the latter half is explaining Aesop's Fables rather than the Bible.
Something I've been researching as of late is the distinct similarities of ancient and current religious stories. There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days. This intrigues me. I've tried to take on any new knowledge as unbiased as possible. From what I've learned thus far, it seems to me that instead of this being proof that Christianity is merely a copycat religion, it's more that humanity has always felt the presence of a higher power. That higher power takes on the form of what that society understands. In those days, the concept of life changed much more so than it has in the last 2000 years, which is why we still have "Christianity" and "Judaism" as they stand today without much change from nearly 2000 years ago. It's not that Christianity is spot on and Sumerians were innately wrong; it's that we felt the same "God", but formed our concept of him differently based on the knowledge and data available to us at each respective time.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-16 00:39:57  
Look up syncretism Daemun. It's a fascinating subject.
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By daemun 2014-09-16 00:40:42  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Eh, you're trying to equate domination as an instinct with domination as a practice of societal control. They aren't really the same thing. Using a position of power to manipulate masses isn't uniquely religious, but it isn't intrinsically secular, either. As long as there has been geopolitical subtext, there has been religion to hide behind.
While I agree, I still state that the concept of societal control was birthed out of the human brain, and not divine inspiration. That was merely what I was trying to say. Societal control is in the Old Testament as a matter of fact, several times, just as Jet likes to use when he takes piece of the Bible out of context to prove a point. Individually, there are some horrendous acts on humanity stated in the Bible. When placed in context and read as a whole, often the meaning changes entirely.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:40:44  
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Rape was a spoil of war until very recently. The world is a *** up place and humans are no exception. We're at a time in human progress that is so detached from many historically common horrorifics that we cannot fathom their normality in the past. The fact that those things are included in the Bible do not speak ill of the it - it was written in the Bronze age after all. The reason those things are brought up is in correspondence with fundamentalist and literalistic interpretations of the Bible, because if it is taken literally, so too must those writings that are unacceptable by today's society.
I'm not ignorant of humanity's creations/"evils" just that that particular book is one of them, and it's ludicrous to claim it's moral superiority when it's blatantly written by humans and their timely code of misguided morals, it doesn't make it any less grotesque.

Hell there's a lot of things that are commonplace today that society does that I find particularly sickening, but as some of it is so popular and "traditional" it will take a lot of time and pressure to change it.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-09-16 00:41:01  
daemun said: »
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Sounds more like the latter half is explaining Aesop's Fables rather than the Bible.
Something I've been researching as of late is the distinct similarities of ancient and current religious stories. There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days. This intrigues me. I've tried to take on any new knowledge as unbiased as possible. From what I've learned thus far, it seems to me that instead of this being proof that Christianity is merely a copycat religion, it's more that humanity has always felt the presence of a higher power. That higher power takes on the form of what that society understands. In those days, the concept of life changed much more so than it has in the last 2000 years, which is why we still have "Christianity" and "Judaism" as they stand today without much change from nearly 2000 years ago. It's not that Christianity is spot on and Sumerians were innately wrong; it's that we felt the same "God", but formed our concept of him differently based on the knowledge and data available to us at each respective time.
The Bible itself is a collection of stories - many factual events, skewed into a different place and time - taken from many of the other cultures it has wiped out in order to gain dominance.

Noah's Ark is a good example. It was story once told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, almost word for word.
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By daemun 2014-09-16 00:41:45  
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
Look up syncretism Daemun. It's a fascinating subject.
Well based on Google's definition, it looks quite interesting. I shall definitely look into it more and see if my own faith is a product of such.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:43:16  
daemun said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Eh, you're trying to equate domination as an instinct with domination as a practice of societal control. They aren't really the same thing. Using a position of power to manipulate masses isn't uniquely religious, but it isn't intrinsically secular, either. As long as there has been geopolitical subtext, there has been religion to hide behind.
While I agree, I still state that the concept of societal control was birthed out of the human brain, and not divine inspiration. That was merely what I was trying to say. Societal control is in the Old Testament as a matter of fact, several times, just as Jet likes to use when he takes piece of the Bible out of context to prove a point. Individually, there are some horrendous acts on humanity stated in the Bible. When placed in context and read as a whole, often the meaning changes entirely.
There's nothing out of context, and considering the god of the bible is factious and man-made, of course it's not divinely inspired.

This can be logically deduced, but if you're of the belief that your "divine being" can supersede logic, then that concept is too lost on you.

But I don't give a ***how much of an apologist you are, if you're going to sit here and tell me that the god of the bible doesn't condone those evil things, I'm going to laugh at you.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:44:40  
daemun said: »
There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days.

I occasionally hear people say that, but I can't find anything solid to support the claim. Where are people getting this story from so I can research it?

Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Noah's Ark is a good example. It was story once told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, almost word for word.

There's no proof that the stories didn't evolve from the same account, though. That's to be expected in an era when there was less writing, more storytelling.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:45:22  
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
daemun said: »
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Sounds more like the latter half is explaining Aesop's Fables rather than the Bible.
Something I've been researching as of late is the distinct similarities of ancient and current religious stories. There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days. This intrigues me. I've tried to take on any new knowledge as unbiased as possible. From what I've learned thus far, it seems to me that instead of this being proof that Christianity is merely a copycat religion, it's more that humanity has always felt the presence of a higher power. That higher power takes on the form of what that society understands. In those days, the concept of life changed much more so than it has in the last 2000 years, which is why we still have "Christianity" and "Judaism" as they stand today without much change from nearly 2000 years ago. It's not that Christianity is spot on and Sumerians were innately wrong; it's that we felt the same "God", but formed our concept of him differently based on the knowledge and data available to us at each respective time.
The Bible itself is a collection of stories - many factual events, skewed into a different place and time - taken from many of the other cultures it has wiped out in order to gain dominance.

Noah's Ark is a good example. It was story once told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, almost word for word.

A lot of the stories were "stolen"/"borrowed" and there were many "gods" of virgin births, that's not really news to many people, well...
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-16 00:45:52  
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
daemun said: »
There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days.

I occasionally hear people say that, but I can't find anything solid to support the claim. Where are people getting this story from so I can research it?

Horus would be a good jumping point, he's egyptian, but based on an earlier figure as well.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:47:57  
I'm going to dip out, you ladies have fun, I either need to do relic trials or physics homework.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-16 00:48:18  
Many kings were said to have been born of virgins. It was testament to their divine right to hold the throne. Julias Caesar, for instance, was said to have been born of a virgin.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:48:50  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
daemun said: »
There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days.

I occasionally hear people say that, but I can't find anything solid to support the claim. Where are people getting this story from so I can research it?

Horus would be a good jumping point, he's egyptian, but based on an earlier figure as well.

I'm familiar with Horus. Egyptian mythology used to be one of my interests. It's a stretch.
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By daemun 2014-09-16 00:49:12  
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
The Bible itself is a collection of stories - many factual events, skewed into a different place and time - taken from many of the other cultures it has wiped out in order to gain dominance.

Noah's Ark is a good example. It was story once told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, almost word for word.
I agree with your post in it's entirety, but would like to point something out about the bold.

The (yes here's the "No True Scotsman" approach, sue me), that the real concept of Christianity is not societal control, but self control. They purpose and joy an individual gains from applying it to their life, should be impacting enough that they feel compelled to share it with others around them. That, unfortunately, gets skewed into what is monikered as "Bible Thumping". People misinterpret the concept of spreading the Good news as telling everyone they come across how much better than them they are, and/or telling them they're going to Hell.

Speaking in very crude generalities with this post.
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