Aegis Vs. Ochain

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2010-06-21
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Aegis vs. Ochain
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 Fenrir.Yinsha
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By Fenrir.Yinsha 2011-10-03 16:42:26  
10,000 x .125 = 1250
We are capable taking much more magic damage with Aegis obv,
They could at least raise Magic damage from HNM to a 3,000 base or destroy Ochain with 4,000+ magix
 Phoenix.Deboro
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By Phoenix.Deboro 2011-10-03 16:43:47  
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Fenrir.Yinsha said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Same ***, different name. Add some pets that influence its flight cycle.

New wyrms will be a joke if they follow the same pattern, VW or not.
If SE wants relics to be the best, what's stopping them from adding ridiculous amounts of INT/MAB to these Wyrms?

Unless they completely dumb down their physical capabilities, they'd have to keep the wyrms perpetually in flight. An increase in magical strength wouldn't be enough.

You have to keep in mind that while Aegis is capable of bringing magic damage down to stupid levels, any other shield can still bring powerful magic attacks down to sub-500, which isn't the least bit dangerous.

What does a shield other then aegis have to do with reducing magic damage? every job can get MDT + Shell V not every job breaks the cap for an additional 37.5 MDT. If you think that a non-aegis pld is going to be just as easy to cure then get rid of the Pld all together because any DD can do the same thing.

So if you actually need a pld, then that pld should have aegis, Ochain was cool in abyseaa it was fun to see it in action but it never was a useful shield
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-03 16:44:37  
I wouldn't call 10,000 damage typical.

And you're also venturing into the land of things that would become impossible without a relic weapon, which isn't part of their plan as far as I know.
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 Fenrir.Yinsha
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By Fenrir.Yinsha 2011-10-03 16:46:07  
It was just an example, lol. 3,000 damage is reasonable.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-03 16:46:40  
Phoenix.Deboro said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Fenrir.Yinsha said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Same ***, different name. Add some pets that influence its flight cycle.

New wyrms will be a joke if they follow the same pattern, VW or not.
If SE wants relics to be the best, what's stopping them from adding ridiculous amounts of INT/MAB to these Wyrms?

Unless they completely dumb down their physical capabilities, they'd have to keep the wyrms perpetually in flight. An increase in magical strength wouldn't be enough.

You have to keep in mind that while Aegis is capable of bringing magic damage down to stupid levels, any other shield can still bring powerful magic attacks down to sub-500, which isn't the least bit dangerous.

What does a shield other then aegis have to do with reducing magic damage? every job can get MDT + Shell V not every job breaks the cap for an additional 37.5 MDT. If you think that a non-aegis pld is going to be just as easy to cure then get rid of the Pld all together because any DD can do the same thing.

So if you actually need a pld, then that pld should have aegis, Ochain was cool in abyseaa it was fun to see it in action but it never was a useful shield

Back anything you just said up with something reasonable, then I'll bother to respond to it.
 Fenrir.Yinsha
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By Fenrir.Yinsha 2011-10-03 17:02:12  
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Phoenix.Deboro said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Fenrir.Yinsha said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Same ***, different name. Add some pets that influence its flight cycle.

New wyrms will be a joke if they follow the same pattern, VW or not.
If SE wants relics to be the best, what's stopping them from adding ridiculous amounts of INT/MAB to these Wyrms?

Unless they completely dumb down their physical capabilities, they'd have to keep the wyrms perpetually in flight. An increase in magical strength wouldn't be enough.

You have to keep in mind that while Aegis is capable of bringing magic damage down to stupid levels, any other shield can still bring powerful magic attacks down to sub-500, which isn't the least bit dangerous.

What does a shield other then aegis have to do with reducing magic damage? every job can get MDT + Shell V not every job breaks the cap for an additional 37.5 MDT. If you think that a non-aegis pld is going to be just as easy to cure then get rid of the Pld all together because any DD can do the same thing.

So if you actually need a pld, then that pld should have aegis, Ochain was cool in abyseaa it was fun to see it in action but it never was a useful shield

Back anything you just said up with something reasonable, then I'll bother to respond to it.
The only thing special PLD has is exceeding the MDT cap really. You could justify taking minimum damage with Ochain, but for anything blinkable there is Utsusemi.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-03 17:18:20  
I've sat here for several minutes staring at the screen because I genuinely didn't know how to respond to that.

How can people who fawn over Aegis, which offers a relatively small increase in safety against magic damage, and then claim that the difference between a DD/NIN and an Ochain PLD is minimal enough to ignore entirely?

Going from 0% MDT to 50% MDT/xMDB is a dramatic change compared to going from 50% MDT/xMDB to 87.5% MDT/xMDB. You're taking something that would have done 2,000 damage naked, 500-600 damage with <insert shield here>, and going to 100-200 damage. That's worthy of a job change, but being physically impenetrable isn't?

Your logic follows no pattern whatsoever.
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 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-03 17:20:21  
Also something about having a job that is always engaged possessing most sword procs, Shield Bash, a handful of WHM procs, and respectable damage output
 Ragnarok.Alcarin
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By Ragnarok.Alcarin 2011-10-03 17:21:15  
Aegis is a complete shield. Ochain its just block...
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 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2011-10-03 17:22:01  
Sure had a big turn around from the last thread about VW and PLD =p
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-03 17:28:16  
Leviathan.Draylo said: »
Sure had a big turn around from the last thread about VW and PLD =p

Really? Looks identical to me.

You've got me, your random people popping in to say one shield or the other and leave, and then you've got people who argue with me while not taking the time to understand what I'm talking about.
 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2011-10-03 17:29:05  
I meant the MNK vs PLD thing lol
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-03 17:30:36  
I don't think anyone ever compared MNK to Ochain or Aegis in a positive light.
 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2011-10-03 17:31:45  
Quote:
Also something about having a job that is always engaged possessing most sword procs, Shield Bash, a handful of WHM procs, and respectable damage output

Didn't mention Aegis/Ochain in this. The last thread you made it seem like PLD is not as good as a MNK due to a couple hundred HP.
 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-03 17:33:15  
It was implied. They said that an Ochain PLD may as well be on another job, and I offered reasons why that's a silly assertion. I mentioned physical impenetrability in a prior post.
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By Quiznor 2011-10-03 17:49:00  
Ragnarok.Alcarin said: »
Aegis is a complete shield. Ochain its just block...

Ochain is a complete shield.Aegis,its just MDT

(not that i believe that,its just an obvios counter arguement)

***is sitational,get over it.and yes,i have an ochain and can admit they're sitational

Ninja edit: and remember,we can still hit 50% MDT,which was enough for aegis owners to justify a 250mil aegis for all those years pre-MDT cap lift,so its good enogh now
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 Odin.Xeca
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By Odin.Xeca 2011-10-03 18:21:59  
Aegis and Ochain Counter each other this debate will never be concluded the better shield is in the better player. You can suck and have ochain and ur still going to die and you can suck and have aegis and ur still going to die. your healers can also suck and have aegis or ochain in most cases ur goina die if you cant keep up.

Aegis Ochain / Ying Yang
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 Cerberus.Arcmarc
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By Cerberus.Arcmarc 2011-10-03 18:29:03  
I have aegis and ochain and I can tell you that inside abyssea with 3000+HP yea sure use ochain since you can live easily with a 1500 damage nuke.

If you plan to do voidwatch, ochain still helps but you better have a lot of support jobs because when your whm runs out of MP curing you with ochain on, you're entire alliance is gonna wipe.

Both shields are entirely situational and anyone who considers themselves a career pld will get both.
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-10-03 18:40:09  
Cerberus.Arcmarc said: »
your whm runs out of MP curing you with ochain on, you're entire alliance is gonna wipe.

Unless your group completley sucks and cant proc ***, this should never happen, WHM has near unlimited MP inside of Voidwatch because of meds from procs.

But even before meds, just like inside abyssea with Gear/Refresh/Ballads WHM can easily rock a 20 tic fresh and not to mention AF3 legs giving you MP back from cures.

Just saying unless your a really bad group theres no way in hell your whm should be running out of mp x:
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 Ragnarok.Alcarin
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By Ragnarok.Alcarin 2011-10-03 19:13:42  
Quiznor said: »
Ragnarok.Alcarin said: »
Aegis is a complete shield. Ochain its just block...

Ochain is a complete shield.Aegis,its just MDT

(not that i believe that,its just an obvios counter arguement)

***is sitational,get over it.and yes,i have an ochain and can admit they're sitational

Ninja edit: and remember,we can still hit 50% MDT,which was enough for aegis owners to justify a 250mil aegis for all those years pre-MDT cap lift,so its good enogh now

tbh, Aegis is not situational, with Aegis i dont have any problem on tank even the MNK NM's, Aegis have MDT, Aegis have good block rate and reprisal/palisade will help to add more % block, and trust me is very hight. Also when you block you have -75% PDT so lol why i should waste my time to get an ochain? i wont use Ochain for sure since with Aegis i can tank ALL nm without problems and im not say that just to justify the 250m i spent, just get Aegis and try you wont say again, just situation shield.
 Odin.Sheelay
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By Odin.Sheelay 2011-10-03 19:16:28  
I think people are using the word situational a bit too often nowadays. Can't we all just get along and such?
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 Ragnarok.Alcarin
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By Ragnarok.Alcarin 2011-10-03 19:18:15  
Odin.Sheelay said: »
I think people are using the word situational a bit too often nowadays. Can't we all just get along and such?
Yes please! but hate when people say : Np Aegis MDT macro.. lol.
 Odin.Xeca
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By Odin.Xeca 2011-10-03 19:28:16  
yea swaping aegis in is pointless just best to full time it when i finish my ochain it prob wont get much use and this whole debate is point less they each have there uses and if u dont have either u should make one for your pld but dont be cheap make the all around shield Aegis may take u longer but you will see what all the aegis plds are talking about.
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 Leviathan.Dodu
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-10-03 19:42:59  
Every time somebody dramatically overextends the benefit of having an Aegis, you take several steps backward.

Serious PLD should have both, but going from 50MDT/25-50MDB to 87.5MDT/25-50MDB is not a big deal to most healers, and pretending that seeing double-digit magic damage is that much more than a novelty is not a good way to get your point across.
 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2011-10-03 19:58:08  
People seem to be grossly underestimating how often mobs, ya know, melee as well.
 Ramuh.Krizz
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By Ramuh.Krizz 2011-10-03 19:59:32  
Bahamut.Serj said: »
People seem to be grossly underestimating how often mobs, ya know, melee as well.
inb4 that's what /nin is for
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2011-10-03 20:01:22  
Ramuh.Krizz said: »
Bahamut.Serj said: »
People seem to be grossly underestimating how often mobs, ya know, melee as well.
inb4 that's what /nin is for

Thats what.... damn it!
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