International Politics, It's Not All About The USA

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International Politics, it's not all about the USA
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-07-19 11:58:24  
Here's your international politics thread, although this topic hasn't really breached other threads yet, might as well have one for this:

To start off:

Turkey’s decision to convert Hagia Sophia into mosque strikes fears for other holy sites

Caleb Parke said:
Religious and political leaders are decrying Turkey's decision to make Istanbul's Hagia Sophia, known for its Christian origin and as the secular Muslim nation's most popular tourist site, into a mosque.

Built as a Greek Orthodox Church nearly 1,500 years ago and converted into a mosque after the Ottoman conquest of 1453, the Unesco World Heritage Site became a museum in 1934 under Turkish Republic founding father Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Today, it attracts more than 3.7 million visitors a year.

Last week, however, a Turkish court ruled the Hagia Sophia's conversion to a museum was unlawful and Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared the building a mosque once again, the BBC reports.

"Like all our mosques, the doors of Hagia Sophia will be wide open to locals and foreigners, Muslims and non-Muslims," Erdogan said at a press conference noting Muslim prayer will begin on July 24.

On Tuesday, Greece, which is home to a large number of citizens who revere the sixth-century building as a focal point of their Orthodox Christian faith, called it a "petty" move.

“With this backward action, Turkey is opting to sever links with the Western world and its values,” Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said.

The decision also was criticized by the World Council of Churches and the Church in Russia, home to the world's largest Orthodox Christian community, and the leader of the Catholic Church.

"My thoughts go to Istanbul. I think of St. Sophia and I am very pained," the pope said during a service at the Vatican.

Unesco said its World Heritage Committee would review the monument's status.

According to an Arabic Facebook post, Erdogan stated that the “revival of the Hagia Sophia is a sign toward the return of freedom to the al-Aqsa mosque” in Jerusalem, CBN News reports.

The move comes as the United States faces protests calling for the tearing down of monuments and symbols. People across the world worry that Islamists will try to reclaim other sites after Turkey's move.

The Genesis 123 Foundation, based in Israel, called it "a direct attack on Christians and Christian heritage in the Middle East" in a petition to "save the Hagia Sophia from Islamic Extremists."

"We call upon the government of Turkey to reverse its decision and maintain the Hagia Sophia as a world heritage site open to all. We call upon world governments to implore Turkey that they must reverse this action," Jonathan Feldstein, the president of the Genesis 123 Foundation, wrote.

Aykan Erdemir of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies said Erdogan is "once again asserting Islamic supremacism and domination on Turkey's ethnic and religious minorities."

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

I mean, I see why the religious community is pissed off, while at the same time I see one reason why Erdogan did it (to help prevent ISIS and ISIS-lites from destroying it), but really, mobs and radicals are going to radical.

It's more of a powerplay move for the Muslim community than it is to save the monument. But honestly, I have no skin in the game on this (I'm not religious). I do, however, don't want people to destroy anything historic.
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-07-20 15:15:03  
I assume Brexit could also be talked about in here?
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-07-20 15:25:20  
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
I assume Brexit could also be talked about in here?

Brexit or the lack thereof right.
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-07-20 15:29:27  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
I assume Brexit could also be talked about in here?

Brexit or the lack thereof right.
Rules of Freedom of Speech are...different for British Folks. Could they come here and speak in support or against Brexit safely and not be thrown in actual jail for speaking about it?

I hope they would be safe talking about it, either for or against.
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-07-20 15:30:18  
Ohhhh man. This must be that awesome feel how Europeans love to ***on Americans! YES! EPIC!
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By Cruz Missive 2020-07-20 15:38:54  
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
I assume Brexit could also be talked about in here?

Brexit or the lack thereof right.
Rules of Freedom of Speech are...different for British Folks. Could they come here and speak in support or against Brexit safely and not be thrown in actual jail for speaking about it?

I hope they would be safe talking about it, either for or against.

It's not a concern. And even in the case of countries that DO have strict speech laws, this place is pretty safe. We're small and under the radar, P+R is isolated, and there's pretty minimal ways to know who someone here REALLY is, outside of the admins.

Also, there is precisely zero chance I'd cough up IP logs to anyone who came sniffing. *** em.
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 Carbuncle.Skulloneix
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-07-20 15:41:42  
Cruz Missive said: »
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
I assume Brexit could also be talked about in here?

Brexit or the lack thereof right.
Rules of Freedom of Speech are...different for British Folks. Could they come here and speak in support or against Brexit safely and not be thrown in actual jail for speaking about it?

I hope they would be safe talking about it, either for or against.

It's not a concern. And even in the case of countries that DO have strict speech laws, this place is pretty safe. We're small and under the radar, P+R is isolated, and there's pretty minimal ways to know who someone here REALLY is, outside of the admins.

Also, there is precisely zero chance I'd cough up IP logs to anyone who came sniffing. *** em.
I respect that. :)
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-07-20 15:43:42  
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
I assume Brexit could also be talked about in here?

Brexit or the lack thereof right.
Rules of Freedom of Speech are...different for British Folks. Could they come here and speak in support or against Brexit safely and not be thrown in actual jail for speaking about it?

I hope they would be safe talking about it, either for or against.

There is no freedom of speech in the UK, nor anywhere else in the world. Our concept of "freedom of speech" is very much different then everyone else's concept. In the USA it's built right into the founding document of the Country and virtually impossible for the government to manipulate.

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

What this means is that in the USA it's legal for someone to be a a raging ***. Someone in the USA can stand on a street corner and say anything they want and there is nothing any form of government can do about it. Furthermore the reverse is also true, the government can not force someone to say something they don't want to say. The government can not force a person to call another person "he/she/them/they/<insert favorite pronoun here>". Government can not force you to agree with them, or to disagree with someone else, or to keep your thoughts to yourself.

The only limitation the courts have supported was an instance where saying something in a specific scenario could cause immediately lawless action. Basically you can't stand on the street corner and tell people to go murder other people right now. You can encourage people to reduce the population in an abstract way, you just can't direct others to immediately commit a crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio


The USA is the only country in the world that has that level of protection. It's the same with all the other amendment "rights" like due process, privacy and self defense. This comes from the principle that these basic human rights come from nature and not the government, therefor the government can not take them away and they are not subject to whims of said government. In other countries such "rights" are recognized to come from the government and therefor subject to government interpretation and alteration.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-07-20 15:47:56  
Now for folks to say that our rights are a "social construct" that needs interpreting through "modern class distinctions".
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-07-20 15:53:09  
Asura.Saevel said: »
The only limitation the courts have supported was an instance where saying something in a specific scenario could cause immediately lawless action. Basically you can't stand on the street corner and tell people to go murder other people right now. You can encourage people to reduce the population in an abstract way, you just can't direct others to immediately commit a crime.
so "lets burn this b**** down" is still bad, yes? >_> Asking for a friend.
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-07-20 17:36:11  
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
The only limitation the courts have supported was an instance where saying something in a specific scenario could cause immediately lawless action. Basically you can't stand on the street corner and tell people to go murder other people right now. You can encourage people to reduce the population in an abstract way, you just can't direct others to immediately commit a crime.
so "lets burn this b**** down" is still bad, yes? >_> Asking for a friend.

That's perfectly fine because "***" isn't defined and could be interpreted multiple ways.

On the other hand "lets burn this building down" while pointing to a specific building would be very bad. Just like "kill this man" while pointing at a specific man would similarly be bad.
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By Terlet Sangria 2020-07-20 17:38:54  
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
so "lets burn this b**** down" is still bad, yes? >_> Asking for a friend.
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 Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-07-20 18:03:04  
Speech laws in the UK used to be, say what you want as long as you aren't inciting violence. In Scotland, the SNP have just passed what the call the hate speech law. The bill uses phrases like "using unkind words with regards to someones gender/religion/ethnicity". Unkind words. Yikes.

The North of England had 22,000 (yes twenty two, thousand) white child sexual abuse victims in 2019, and the people who are supposed to be protecting these girls are saying they are told to "keep quiet for the sake of diversity" or fear being branded racist for telling people the perpetrators are Pakistani Muslims. The report into those grooming gangs was held back by the government because it's "not in the public interest". After a petition with 120,000 signatures demanding the report be released, the home office announced the report would be released. At least, the report would be reviewed and then a report of the report would be released in about a years time. Look forward to that.

Meanwhile UK police officials and pen pushers are going full new speak.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-07-20 23:24:52  
Phoenix.Thorbean said: »
Speech laws in the UK used to be, say what you want as long as you aren't inciting violence. In Scotland, the SNP have just passed what the call the hate speech law. The bill uses phrases like "using unkind words with regards to someones gender/religion/ethnicity". Unkind words. Yikes


This, this right here, is why natural rights are so important. The power to give is also the power to take away, having a "law" that "allows" someone to say something means that "law" can be removed on the whims of a power shift. Government can not be trusted to act for the bests interests of it's citizens, it only seeks to increase it's own power. Instead we must force Government to do the bidding of the citizens by shackling it's power.
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By Prong 2020-07-20 23:48:55  
I know very little about Brexit as there is so much nonsense going on in the US due to newly conjured conspiracies popping up each day, I can barely keep up, let alone know who is actually telling the truth(if there even is a truth).

That being said, the thing I do not understand about Brexit, wasn't there a popular vote held for this years ago and the people of Britain voted to leave the European Union due to the Union's unfair-to-the-few-wealthy-nations policy on open immigration?

If so, how does their government work where they can just ignore that and fight to not respect that vote?
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-07-21 07:20:04  
Prong said: »
I know very little about Brexit as there is so much nonsense going on in the US due to newly conjured conspiracies popping up each day, I can barely keep up, let alone know who is actually telling the truth(if there even is a truth).

That being said, the thing I do not understand about Brexit, wasn't there a popular vote held for this years ago and the people of Britain voted to leave the European Union due to the Union's unfair-to-the-few-wealthy-nations policy on open immigration?

If so, how does their government work where they can just ignore that and fight to not respect that vote?

Because those running the UK Government never thought the population would actually vote to leave. There is large amounts of wealth on the line and that can't be left to silly uninformed voters. So they dragged their feet, made everything take twice as long as it needed to, all in the hopes of either finding a way to nullify the referendum or holding a second referendum and hoping for a better (for them) result.

Since then they've had several elections and many Prime Ministers with each successive result affirming the voters desire to cut ties with the EU. Hell there was even talk of using the EU Court to nullify brexit by declaring it illegal, let that sink in for a moment.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-07-21 08:22:27  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Hell there was even talk of using the EU Court to nullify brexit by declaring it illegal, let that sink in for a moment.
Yeah, that will never fly.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-07-21 09:14:32  
Brexit was stupid.

The foot dragging over actually brexiting is even more stupid.

"Oh look! Brexit is going to cause economic disruption and chaos! Lets spread the pain over as many years as possible!"
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-07-21 09:19:46  
Garuda.Chanti said: »
"Oh look! Brexit is going to cause economic disruption and chaos! Lets spread the pain over as many years as possible!"
Economic disruption was already in place, irregardless if the UK stayed in the EU or not.

Brexit just displayed it in full view. The Brits always were on the short end of the stick.
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By Viciouss 2020-07-21 10:10:35  
Carbuncle.Skulloneix said: »
volkom said: »
well tim pool has been doing this for quite a while. you could watch the vids or read articles of what he wrote when obama was in office to get a reference
He is avidly anti-war. I believe he didn't like how Obama kept up the war machine, in his words.

The anti-war stuff you'd think would appeal to non conservatives. So lets see.

Chanti, Vic, Kojo, do you support Trump's plan to pull our troops out of Afghanistan?

I'm replying to this here because you guys are derailing the covid thread, and I'm waiting on cooldowns.

Ahem, do I support getting out of Afghanistan? Sure, I would be open to the idea, if its done correctly. That said, is Trump doing it correctly?

HELL NO.

First, lets get the obvious out of the way, the Trump admin signed an American surrender with the Taliban, yes THAT Taliban, while not only cutting out the Afganistan government, but making promises on their behalf. That in itself should raise all kinds of red flags.

To summarize what the surrender terms were, the USA would fully withdraw, the Afghan government would release all of, or a huge chunk of, the ISIS prisoners that they had captured in exchange for Afghani POWs (a prisoner awap) and the Taliban, yes THAT Taliban, would agree not to harbor or promote acts of terrorism.

Since the US signed the surrender, the Afghan gov't has indeed released thousands of ISIS prisoners, and they have received back some of their POWs, but it hasn't been equivocal. More importantly, the terrorism has increased, at some points in time, skyrocketed. I mean, the Taliban are terrorists, so of course they are continuing to commit acts of terrorism.

So the US withdrawal has effectively been slowed, we withdrew from I think 4 bases and the immediate result was more terrorism. Trump wanted us out fully by the end of the year thats not gonna happen. Now he wants 4k troops out by the Fall I would doubt that happens. Congress has never liked the terms of the surrender, no one believes the Taliban. Trump just wants to score a political win at any cost, he fell flat on his face with North Korea, history is repeating itself.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-07-21 10:14:17  
That's technically not international politics. US war policy is still US policy, regardless of where the war is.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-07-21 10:17:49  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
That's technically not international politics. US war policy is still US policy, regardless of where the war is.
Reasonable argument but ...

"If America sneezes Canada catches a cold." Canadian news or American news?

We make policy, no one in America notices but hundreds are killed elsewhere. Its way bigger news in that elsewhere than here.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-07-21 10:19:41  
Garuda.Chanti said: »
We make policy, no one in America notices but hundreds are killed elsewhere. Its way bigger news in that elsewhere than here.
Yes, but if the US were to invade Greece for their olives, almost nobody in the US would hear about it, but it would be local, 24/7 coverage in Greece.
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By Carbuncle.Skulloneix 2020-07-21 10:21:28  
Viciouss said: »
I'm replying to this here because you guys are derailing the covid thread, and I'm waiting on cooldowns
My bad, I also took it to Trump.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-07-21 18:20:12  
U.K. 'Actively Avoided' Investigating Russian Interference, Lawmakers Find
NPR

Quote:
British lawmakers have reached a damning conclusion about the possibility of Russian electoral interference in the U.K.: The Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee said it can't determine whether the Kremlin tried to influence the 2016 Brexit referendum, because the British government hasn't even tried to find out....
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By Garuda.Chanti 2020-07-21 18:25:28  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Garuda.Chanti said: »
We make policy, no one in America notices but hundreds are killed elsewhere. Its way bigger news in that elsewhere than here.
Yes, but if the US were to invade Greece for their olives, almost nobody in the US would hear about it, but it would be local, 24/7 coverage in Greece.
That what I said.

Besides they sell the olives to us.

https://www.redflagproducts.com/other-products/tanks/olive-barrel-55-gallon-terra-cotta-screw-top.html
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By Prong 2020-07-21 22:50:23  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Prong said: »
I know very little about Brexit as there is so much nonsense going on in the US due to newly conjured conspiracies popping up each day, I can barely keep up, let alone know who is actually telling the truth(if there even is a truth).

That being said, the thing I do not understand about Brexit, wasn't there a popular vote held for this years ago and the people of Britain voted to leave the European Union due to the Union's unfair-to-the-few-wealthy-nations policy on open immigration?

If so, how does their government work where they can just ignore that and fight to not respect that vote?

Because those running the UK Government never thought the population would actually vote to leave. There is large amounts of wealth on the line and that can't be left to silly uninformed voters. So they dragged their feet, made everything take twice as long as it needed to, all in the hopes of either finding a way to nullify the referendum or holding a second referendum and hoping for a better (for them) result.

Since then they've had several elections and many Prime Ministers with each successive result affirming the voters desire to cut ties with the EU. Hell there was even talk of using the EU Court to nullify brexit by declaring it illegal, let that sink in for a moment.


Ok, there system of gov't much be very different than ours if something voted upon by the people CAN even be just....re-voted on if the powers that be don't like it.

Also, what exactly was the argument to stay in the EU? Not kidding, the only argument I ever heard was from young people, something about being in the EU allowed them to travel to any other EU country for cheap, or something basically irrelevant. I've not heard any other even close to sound arguments, minus the, "But, but...the poor countries need money from the UK/Germany/France."

And it must be a done deal now, this website doesn't even list Britain as part of the EU any longer.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/eu-countries/
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By Asura.Saevel 2020-07-21 23:18:43  
Prong said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Prong said: »
I know very little about Brexit as there is so much nonsense going on in the US due to newly conjured conspiracies popping up each day, I can barely keep up, let alone know who is actually telling the truth(if there even is a truth).

That being said, the thing I do not understand about Brexit, wasn't there a popular vote held for this years ago and the people of Britain voted to leave the European Union due to the Union's unfair-to-the-few-wealthy-nations policy on open immigration?

If so, how does their government work where they can just ignore that and fight to not respect that vote?

Because those running the UK Government never thought the population would actually vote to leave. There is large amounts of wealth on the line and that can't be left to silly uninformed voters. So they dragged their feet, made everything take twice as long as it needed to, all in the hopes of either finding a way to nullify the referendum or holding a second referendum and hoping for a better (for them) result.

Since then they've had several elections and many Prime Ministers with each successive result affirming the voters desire to cut ties with the EU. Hell there was even talk of using the EU Court to nullify brexit by declaring it illegal, let that sink in for a moment.


Ok, there system of gov't much be very different than ours if something voted upon by the people CAN even be just....re-voted on if the powers that be don't like it.

Also, what exactly was the argument to stay in the EU? Not kidding, the only argument I ever heard was from young people, something about being in the EU allowed them to travel to any other EU country for cheap, or something basically irrelevant. I've not heard any other even close to sound arguments, minus the, "But, but...the poor countries need money from the UK/Germany/France."

And it must be a done deal now, this website doesn't even list Britain as part of the EU any longer.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/eu-countries/


The US has this thing called a Constitution that defines the Union of States, defines the Government and then places massive limits on that government. Since the government comes from the Constitution any change would require amending the Constitution. Amending that document is a multi-decade process that involves every State.

This is something I have to explain to my wife all the time. The USA isn't a single county but rather 50 smaller countries in a union. Each of those smaller countries has different governments that are locally elected and run. California can't change the laws of Texas nor can any other government alter Texas government. This is radically different then how every other government in the world works. They all have strong central governments that are ruled from a central seat of power.

Basically we've compartmentalized our power structure such that it's virtually impossible for a tyrant to exist. No matter how much California and New York desire to rule Texas and Oklahoma, they simply can't.
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By Prong 2020-07-21 23:51:56  
Asura.Saevel said: »
This is something I have to explain to my wife all the time.

Although I do appreciate the explanation, don't expect a back rub from me.
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2020-07-22 03:57:42  
Garuda.Chanti said: »
U.K. 'Actively Avoided' Investigating Russian Interference, Lawmakers Find
NPR

Quote:
British lawmakers have reached a damning conclusion about the possibility of Russian electoral interference in the U.K.: The Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee said it can't determine whether the Kremlin tried to influence the 2016 Brexit referendum, because the British government hasn't even tried to find out....

Intelligence services are partisan, it's not up to the Government to investigate, it's up to the intelligence services. You wouldn't blame your GP because your surgeon didn't stitch you up would you.

No evidence of interference in 2016, but the Scot independence referendum in 2014 was interfered with apparently. Interference in this case amounts to 100-200k on FB adds. So that's 2-0 in the normals Vs "it woz Russia wot done it" match so far.

Might want to take a look at how the members who wrote the report voted in the Brexit referendum too. wink wink.
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