October 2019 Version Update

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October 2019 Version Update
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-10-14 09:46:13  
Drain III has a duration longer than the Nether Void/Dark Seal's recast (with augment and Ratri feet), so keeping it up isn't a problem. You also don't need MEVA- debuffs or MACC buffs; Dark Seal is enough to always get the maximum possible land; full strength (on mobs with 60-100% dark rank) is ~4000 HP without MB, while 1/2 (on mobs with 15-50% dark rank) is ~2000 HP without MB. The only times a DRK can't easily get 2000-4000+ bonus HP full time is on mobs with 5-10% dark rank (which is extremely rare and discounting undead, only commonly appears on mobs like Gallu, Dvergr, and Dark Elementals) and undead.

While it doesn't have a LOT of subtle blow, Niqmaddu + Dagon + Chirich +1 + Last Resort gives 40, which is something, at least (though Dagon isn't a feasible option for a lot of players). You can get more if you're willing to sacrifice some DPS. I actually have a Subtle Blow +64 set on my DRK that I use on occasion.

I don't know about how MNK parses now, but DRK in a full on Hybrid set (I use 47% PDT) makes very few sacrifices for DPS, with how good Hjarrandi Brestplate, Sulevia +2 hands/legs, and ambu cape are.

ItemSet 357058

According to my updated spreadsheet, my DRK only loses ~5% DPS from full DPS set like this (assuming you're capped on acc, since that takes a bit of a hit in my set; more acc can be swapped in on the earrings with Mache +1 without impacting PDT if necessary). The MEVA sucks compared to a Malignance MNK, though, and the MDB is 9 lower.
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By fonewear 2019-10-14 10:03:10  
Asura.Geriond said: »
Drain III has a duration longer than the Nether Void/Dark Seal's recast (with augment and Ratri feet), so keeping it up isn't a problem. You also don't need MEVA- debuffs or MACC buffs; Dark Seal is enough to always get the maximum possible land; full strength (on mobs with 60-100% dark rank) is ~4000 HP without MB, while 1/2 (on mobs with 15-50% dark rank) is ~2000 HP without MB. The only times a DRK can't easily get 2000-4000+ HP full time is on mobs with 5-10% dark rank (which is extremely rare and discounting undead, only commonly appears on mobs like Gallu, Dvergr, and Dark Elementals) and undead.

While it doesn't have a LOT of subtle blow, Niqmaddu + Dagon + Chirich +1 + Last Resort gives 40, which is something, at least.

I don't know about how MNK parses now, but DRK in a full on Hybrid set (I use 47% PDT) makes very few sacrifices for DPS, with how good Hjarrandi Brestplate, Sulevia +2 hands/legs, and ambu cape is.

ItemSet 357058

According to my updated spreadsheet, my DRK only loses about 7% DPS from full DPS like this (assuming you're capped on acc, since that takes a bit of a hit in my set; more acc can be swapped in on the earrings with Mache +1 without impacting PDT if necessary). The MEVA sucks compared to a Malignance MNK, though, and the MDB is 9 lower.

According to MY spreadsheet you are full of *** !
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By oyama 2019-10-14 10:11:57  
I feel like WAR still brings benefits in the form of Warcry+Savagery and Blood Rage, which are significant boosts to group DPS. It's also pretty sturdy in general and is on Hjrarrandi gear which is nice, has Retaliation to help maintain DPS while you have hate, and the "Break" ws's are really nice (another thing benefitting group DPS as a whole). I definitely agree it's no longer worth taking a WAR or DRK over a MNK strictly for individual DPS purposes, but I think it's a stretch to call them irrelevant.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-10-14 10:13:12  
DRK can also do the Break WSs in a pinch, too (though only relevant if your group lacks a WAR or SAM, since they don't have to swap weapons and lose TP/Aftermath to do it).
 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-10-14 10:15:22  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
I can phrase it more eloquently if you prefer, I was just having fun.

There is no content in the game that has a damage output requirement in excess of 40% of the maximum damage players can deal in a reasonable party setup. As a result, for a player who's aim is to complete content with little emphasis on time, MNK has always been the most effective job to use. There used to be a counterargument, as WAR and DRK could complete the same content significantly faster, but the recent patch has made any difference in speed extremely minimal to the point of irrelevance.

Combined with MNK receiving an even larger safety net in the form of 450 hp, there is no longer any reason to use DRK or WAR over MNK at the current state of the game. MNK has higher magic evasion, a better hybrid DT set, much more HP, and passively gives the mob significantly less TP, all while dealing almost identical damage. This is a poor decision on SE's part, as MNK was already a perfectly strong choice against monsters with little to no regain(see: early odin and lilith kills). However, it happened and now the only valid reason to play WAR or DRK is a higher personal enjoyment of those jobs.

While I specifically mentioned DRK and WAR, the same applies to many other DPS jobs as well. However, they often have other value, such as:
-DRG can angon and jump, making them a valuable source of damage on prolonged fights.
-NIN's utsusemi:san and migawari are obscenely powerful damage mitigation tools in fights where they are suited to the tp used.
-BLU can help cap haste in the absence of proper buffs, and also has excellent defensives.
-RUN as a DPS can evade one or more negative status effects consistantly, in a fight where they are a problem.
-SAM can deal extremely high damage relative to their TP fed by self SCing.

WAR and DRK have no such value, so they should have a higher damage benefit over the other jobs. They still will not be practical for a group who isn't obsessed with clear times, but as is they are completely irrelevant.

This is a good argument but you can blame the playerbase for how this worked out. The idiotic viewpoint of max theoretical dps over any and all forms of utility meant that monk had to have a straight damage buff to be relevant again. WAR still has its niche, in that it is the easiest dps job to gear, so a good starter job, but for endgame now WAR and DRK would seem to be the big losers after this month. But hey, if people enjoy those jobs they should continue to play them. I'm not going to ditch my warrior because monk got buffed.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-10-14 10:16:17  
It's still very early, but MNK is already showing itself to be really strong since the update. Paired with Malignance gear, Mantra, and appropriate buffs and it's basically a walking tank dps. It will put out similar damage while evading a huge chunk of damage/status debuffs, along with being hard to kill and feeding far less tp due to Penance.

I still don't doubt DRK or WAR can outparse MNK at this point, but when you add up all the tangibles with MNK currently, it's just more idiot-proof. A great DRK like yourself won't bat an eye at the competition, but in general, MNK is just going to be a safer/better norm for, well, all things.
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By Afania 2019-10-14 10:46:10  
oyama said: »
the "Break" ws's are really nice

Or RUN can do it. Since RUN is in pt as a tank most of the time it's not necessarily to bring war drk just for it.

Warcry is nice, sadly it doesn't last long enough.

Blood rage isn't that beneficial for DD without a good crit WS.
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By oyama 2019-10-14 10:48:58  
None of which matters to the question of whether WAR brings any utility as a DPS compared to MNK. They are different utilities, but they are both Heavy DDs with special abilities to help themselves or their party. You aren't bringing a WAR or DRK because it's necessary to have these things and only those jobs can do it. You're bringing them to smash face, and the extra tools they bring help them stand out in various circumstances.
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By Artsncrafts 2019-10-14 10:49:45  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It's still very early, but MNK is already showing itself to be really strong since the update. Paired with Malignance gear, Mantra, and appropriate buffs and it's basically a walking tank dps. It will put out similar damage while evading a huge chunk of damage/status debuffs, along with being hard to kill and feeding far less tp due to Penance.

I still don't doubt DRK or WAR can outparse MNK at this point, but when you add up all the tangibles with MNK currently, it's just more idiot-proof. A great DRK like yourself won't bat an eye at the competition, but in general, MNK is just going to be a safer/better norm for, well, all things.


provided that mnk has malignance gear, but dont forget about war/drk/pld Volte Set. or the sacro body from alex they can all wear if the volte body is unobtainable.

and sam has the kenshi gear which has alot of magic evasion +
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-10-14 10:50:07  
Afania said: »
Or RUN can do it. Since RUN is in pt as a tank most of the time it's not necessarily to bring war drk just for it.

That depends on your setup; if the RUN isn't getting enough ACC buffs (such as when they're in a dedicated tank party in Dynamis), they might sometimes have issues landing it.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2019-10-14 11:05:05  
If subtle blow was the end all, be all for DD; NIN would of been used far more often over WAR or DRK (before the MNK buff). It was very easy to cap Subtle Blow I and quite a few pieces of gear had II on it.

I don't think DRK or WAR became any less useless with the MNK and DRG update.

I play for fun though, so I'll go what I want to go as.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-10-14 11:09:04  
Artsncrafts said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It's still very early, but MNK is already showing itself to be really strong since the update. Paired with Malignance gear, Mantra, and appropriate buffs and it's basically a walking tank dps. It will put out similar damage while evading a huge chunk of damage/status debuffs, along with being hard to kill and feeding far less tp due to Penance.

I still don't doubt DRK or WAR can outparse MNK at this point, but when you add up all the tangibles with MNK currently, it's just more idiot-proof. A great DRK like yourself won't bat an eye at the competition, but in general, MNK is just going to be a safer/better norm for, well, all things.


provided that mnk has malignance gear, but dont forget about war/drk/pld Volte Set. or the sacro body from alex they can all wear if the volte body is unobtainable.

and sam has the kenshi gear which has alot of magic evasion +

Hard to compare the acquisition of Volte Haubert set (which can only be farmed once every 3 days) to Malignance set. That aside, Malignance set has 81 more magic evasion than the Volte Haubert+Sacro body set. It does, however, have 7 less MDB, for whatever that is worth. Monk also has access to the same Kendatsuba +1 attire set sam does, and can sprinkle mix them with Malignance.

I'm just adding up all the tangible things Monk adds to the table with ease. Monk does not need to go out of their way to obtain:
-a high meva offensive set (can be bought)
-a higher meva defensive set (can be farmed solo at the very minimum)
-Maintain capped SB/II without any gear modifications or a WHM for Auspice or COR for rolls
-Lower the monster's TP accumulation by 35% after Subtle Blow
-A very high DPS potential, thanks to the most recent buff
-30% increase to base HP for the whole party (albeit limited to 3 minutes)

SAM/WAR/DRK can obviously do /someall of the above things, some better or to a lesser extent. Generally though, they will need to make sacrifices or go out of their way to accomplish the same. Again, not ready to throw those jobs away by any means, but you can't seriously compare the ease at which MNK can accomplish these things compared to other jobs.
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By oyama 2019-10-14 11:09:18  
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Warcry is nice, sadly it doesn't last long enough.

Blood rage isn't that beneficial for DD without a good crit WS.

Warcry is still an amazing DPS boost despite its duration. A minute of 700 TP bonus for any DD in your party is still a lot of damage (not to mention its other effects).

Victory Smite is a crit WS, as is any WS with Shining One, and a Monk with Karambit is going to benefit immensely from it. WAR and MNK synergize so well together, it's weird that people are suddenly discounting these other jobs just cuz MNK finally got into the club. This is a win for everyone.
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2019-10-14 11:10:12  
oyama said: »
Quote:
Warcry is nice, sadly it doesn't last long enough.

Blood rage isn't that beneficial for DD without a good crit WS.

Warcry is still an amazing DPS boost despite its duration. A minute of 700 TP bonus for any DD in your party is still a lot of damage (not to mention its other effects).

Victory Smite is a crit WS, as is any WS with Shining One, and a Monk with Karambit is going to benefit immensely from it. WAR and MNK synergize so well together, it's weird that people are suddenly discounting these other jobs just cuz MNK finally got into the club. This is a win for everyone.

I always thought they made a good team. I friggen love Mantra.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-10-14 11:11:39  
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
If subtle blow was the end all, be all for DD; NIN would of been used far more often over WAR or DRK (before the MNK buff). It was very easy to cap Subtle Blow I and quite a few pieces of gear had II on it.

What? Which pieces SBII of gear minus Su5 (which every job has access to) does NIN have access to? There's 5(?) pieces, and NIN are on none of them. They also have an inferior debuff in Yurin vs Penance. MNK caps SB just as easily as NIN (without merits btw); it was never in front of MNK as far as that is concerned.
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2019-10-14 11:13:24  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
If subtle blow was the end all, be all for DD; NIN would of been used far more often over WAR or DRK (before the MNK buff). It was very easy to cap Subtle Blow I and quite a few pieces of gear had II on it.

What? Which pieces SBII of gear minus Su5 (which every job has access to) does NIN have access to? There's 5(?) pieces, and NIN are on none of them. They also have an inferior debuff in Yurin vs Penance. MNK caps SB just as easily as NIN (without merits btw); it was never in front of MNK as far as that is concerned.

You are right about the "II" trait. I've been gone a bit, confused some of the MNK gear with NIN stuff.

NIN isn't on Niqmadu/Sherida D:
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-10-14 11:16:04  
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
NIN isn't on Niqmadu/Sherida D:

Biggest Heist Job of Omen
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By Nariont 2019-10-14 11:17:52  
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
If subtle blow was the end all, be all for DD; NIN would of been used far more often over WAR or DRK (before the MNK buff). It was very easy to cap Subtle Blow I and quite a few pieces of gear had II on it.

Dont think that was the claim, just that people undersell how nice SB can be if you are in a situation where you want more control over a fight/less annoying or possibly dangerous TP moves while still maintaining solid dmg output, as stated theres not really any content in game currently that has a strict DPS check, not exactly necessary in the days of everyone having a bot whm/other support to cover their *** since theres very few things in the game that will outright wipe you now with the gear we have available for the current content, but in situations where thats not applicable, its pretty nice.
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By Afania 2019-10-14 11:20:09  
oyama said: »
Victory Smite is a crit WS, as is any WS with Shining One, and a Monk with Karambit is going to benefit immensely from it. WAR and MNK synergize so well together, it's weird that people are suddenly discounting these other jobs just cuz MNK finally got into the club. This is a win for everyone.


Give community a couple of months and we will see. I personally feel this MNK buff is way too strong, MNK was already up there as DD in shorter/none SP fights, or if NM TP move slows down kill speed. This buff has the potential to push it to "way too good" level for situations that already favor MNK.
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By Pantafernando 2019-10-14 11:33:58  
SE didnt finished all jobs updates, and iirc DRK and WAR didnt have their yet, as like a lot of other ones
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-10-14 11:37:16  
calling it now: people are gonna start flat out lying about how good monk already was in order to get it nerfed back down. just like people did with the WSD glitch.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-10-14 11:43:18  
Pantafernando said: »
SE didnt finished all jobs updates, and iirc DRK and WAR didnt have their yet, as like a lot of other ones
The updates are intended to bring the weaker jobs up to the level of the better ones; I wouldn't expect anything other than maybe QoL changes for the jobs that were already at the top of the heap (geo, drk, war, run, etc).
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By Vishwambhari 2019-10-14 11:45:17  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
calling it now: people are gonna start flat out lying about how good monk already was in order to get it nerfed back down. just like people did with the WSD glitch.
SE hasn't directly nerfed anything in a long time, i wouldn't hold my breath if i was among those people.
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By Taint 2019-10-14 11:49:31  
Updates don’t matter until SAM gets theirs.

SHIN SHUN GOKU SATSU Anyone?
[+]
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-10-14 11:50:34  
The change was intentional and deliberate. The only way they revert these changes is if every JP complains that this was done in error, like they did for WHM. Thing is, all of the JP were the ones demanding for this to begin with, so it's gonna stand.

It didn't need THAT much of a boost to get back in the game, and people who knew of its value already appreciated what it brought to the table. But now it's going to basically force a lot of "MNK ONLY" meta all around. And thats what a lot of people are going to feel funny about.
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By oyama 2019-10-14 11:50:54  
Quote:
This buff has the potential to push it to "way too good" level for situations that already favor MNK.

So the buff making monk better than it was in all circumstances, and even better for situations that already favored it is too strong? Job does well in general, does great in situations that it is uniquely well-suited for, and this is a problem? I don't get the logic here.
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By Pantafernando 2019-10-14 11:51:28  
Asura.Geriond said: »
Pantafernando said: »
SE didnt finished all jobs updates, and iirc DRK and WAR didnt have their yet, as like a lot of other ones
The updates are intended to bring the weaker jobs up to the level of the better ones; I wouldn't expect anything other than maybe QoL changes for the jobs that were already at the top of the heap (geo, drk, war, run, etc).

I do agree when jobs that are exclusively dps, they need to do mora dmg than others that bring utility to table. I didnt check mnk but if them got almost close to a pure dps job dmg, thats something not balanced and suposelly should be corrected by giving a bit more native dps to those.

Thats imo
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By oyama 2019-10-14 11:59:31  
Jesus christ. EVERY DD job has some form of utility as we've been defining it. They get different types of utility and some have more options than others, but there is literally no job in this game where the only useful thing you can possibly do is engage and mash WS button. Monk's utilities are pretty unique but I wouldn't classify them as any more valuable than another Heavy DDs utilities, except in situations that call for them. Monk getting its damage bumped up to match other heavy DDs simply puts it in the same class as the others, which it should be. Tp-feed mitigation and survivability are great, not game breaking.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-10-14 12:01:36  
Pantafernando said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
Pantafernando said: »
SE didnt finished all jobs updates, and iirc DRK and WAR didnt have their yet, as like a lot of other ones
The updates are intended to bring the weaker jobs up to the level of the better ones; I wouldn't expect anything other than maybe QoL changes for the jobs that were already at the top of the heap (geo, drk, war, run, etc).

I do agree when jobs that are exclusively dps, they need to do mora dmg than others that bring utility to table. I didnt check mnk but if them got almost close to a pure dps job dmg, thats something not balanced and suposelly should be corrected by giving a bit more native dps to those.

Thats imo
Perhaps, but balancing is hard, and bad things happen when it's not done absolutely perfectly.

Adjustment too weak, like with Monk's previous update? Players get angry and complain.

Adjustment too strong? Either you revert some of the changes, angering lots of players and making them complain, or you buff everything else again, leading to the same dilemma and then uncontrolled power creep.
By volkom 2019-10-14 12:03:53  
Mnk doesn't have Torcleaver
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