To Automate, Or Not To Automate

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2010-06-21
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フォーラム » FFXI » General » To Automate, or Not to Automate
To Automate, or Not to Automate
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 15:22:23  
Hello folks. The general consensus among many FFXI players these days is: get it done as quickly as possible. There's no time to feel pride. There's no time to try anything different. We take the route of least resistance, happily smashing the easy button to acquire our shinies. But when does it get to the point you're no longer playing the game? When does it get to watching the computer play it for you? SE has never had much control over what 3rd party tools can do, and nowadays .. they've given up entirely outside of any extreme examples of "printing money".

I've always tried to shy away from automation, but it's becoming ever clearer that players find it necessary. Not only that, but they feel the need to slate others for not doing so. To some, it's becoming the expected norm. It's the same for farming gil .. no one wants to graft anymore, they'd rather stick bots in an area, go to sleep, and come back to easy money. Threads don't devolve in to "what job is best/worst" anymore. Instead, they devolve in to "you suck because you need react", "you suck because you need to bot for gil", or "you suck because you use luas to automate your job".

I have never used organizer, or anything similar. I have never used React. I can see the benefits though. Like, if I botted .. I'd have more gil and many more ultimate weapons. If I used Organizer, I'd never be late for a WS (distractions eliminated). If I used React, I probably wouldn't be getting killed by the Tonberry shadows from last months Ambuscade (they were so annoying to react to).

I am guilty of somethings though. Like, I recently tried the Voidwatch script which lets you trade, pop, and take rewards out of the chest automatically. I also used to bypass the Sparks NPC to get Shields quicker (before SE changed it). The only automation I look for are convenient quality of life things which saves my fingers. But when does it cross the line? And when do you start letting the game play by itself? And why should we even care if others do? It's their subscription after all. What's more important? Learning how to play the game "properly"? Or using as many tools as possible so you don't need to learn?

Is it more important to use React so you don't wipe your Ambu party (and get stuck in the Asura queue)? Or show you don't need it and can learn (with some wipes) to do so manually? Are you Ok with people leaving after a failed run because your pride got in the way of using React? Or do players suck because they feel they need it? And botting has always been around in some form, and I know some who do. Many don't have the time (or motivation) to farm manually every day. I never have the motivation (nor do I multi-box). Am always telling my linkshells how lazy I am. So gil doesn't come from nowhere for me, not like those who do. Am I wrong? As a LS leader, should I be taking advantage of these shortcuts? Or do I set a better example by showing I can earn everything without?

This isn't a thread about bashing one playstyle or the other. What it's about, is better understanding why some feel the need to, or not to, shortcut the game to the point of (almost complete) automation. How do we "react" to things in situations when React would have saved us? How do we farm (and stay motivated) gil without bots? Can we find ways to better educate those players who just copy/paste dump a lua? So on days when Windower isn't working they can actually play FFXI vanilla? Believe it or not, I can still play vanilla. How alien would it be to some though? With no scripts? No luas? No addons? Impossible. I would like to see a for vs. against debate which remains on topic. It would be appreciated, but am not expecting it. Let us know what you think about automation play in FFXI? Thank you.
 Odin.Senaki
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By Odin.Senaki 2019-04-05 15:29:50  
I personally don't use anything add-on related because I feel like it is cheating and gives me an unfair advantage over players who don't use them.

But I am in the minority for sure.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 15:31:08  
Obvious statement is obvious enough that it doesn't even need to be said

FFXI = Job

Work smarter not harder.

"whatever it takes"

You ever put a chair or a rubber band on a turbo controller? No different. There's a spot. In one of the old FF games, a raft on a river. Path A is repeat Path B is end. You set something to hold the button down and repeat the river all night and wake up with a higher level and more money.

This is no different, we've just acquired better technology so now you don't need to do that.

YouTube Video Placeholder


You see the people that put their phones in bike spokes? on ceiling fans? to exploit the step counters in pokemon GO? This is just the culture now.

I don't care how good you are, how fast you type, you physically cannot react fast enough to bars for this months ambuscade. And missing means you *** lose. So. It's a nobrainer here.
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 Asura.Zulaern
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By Asura.Zulaern 2019-04-05 15:32:52  
Interesting topic. I started back up after last playing in ToAU just a few months ago and I feel like a dinosaur doing things the "old way" sometimes. As I dabble more with GearSwap and other QoL luas, I too find myself wondering on what's acceptable and what isn't. I think most people are fine with skillup luas, that doesn't really hurt anyone. What about botting job points? That doesn't really hurt anyone either (you could say it crowds CP camps I suppose). So where's the line?

I was in highschool when I played last, now I'm married, full time job etc. There's a certain appeal to be able to do some of these grindy things automatically and allow me to use my limited play time on more enjoyable things.

I also played a lot of WoW in between then and now, and addons are a huge part of that game. Things like DBM are pretty much considered mandatory.

All that to say I'm interested in people's takes on this as well.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-05 15:51:59  
Do whatever you want, who cares what anyone else thinks? The reason automation became such a big thing is because FFXI's UI and macro mechanics are so archaic, it's literally a chore. I can speak from experience because I'm a vanilla user to a certain extent still (I use windower, but no luas), and it is a huge burden trying to optimize gear sets. Before there was equipsets, there were 6 macro lines per macro palette alt/ctrl that you could get things done with. There was no way you could make efficient gear swap macros in that current state. SE eventually made changes to improve this area, but it's not enough. For players who value optimization to the 1% improvement, SE does not cater to that, and it is frustrating.

For example, macro lines are limited to 1 second wait times. If you pair the right spell with a capped FC set, you will midcast in your precast, because the system cannot swap your gear fast enough before the spell fires off. It's one annoyance that SE never addressed, and players got tired of not being able to optimize their characters as efficiently as they wanted to. So they started using programs to help out.

There's insane amounts of gear in this game, for literally every single scenario. It's impossible for any human to naturally have sets for every single situation that may arise, and since SE has never given players the option, players took it upon themselves. There are some lazy players who use automation because they are just not that good themselves, but the vast majority of players love ffxi the game, but hate the clunky UI SE built it under.

Even simple monster mechanics are just full roadblock annoyances that serve as nothing more than obstacles players have to constantly find ways around. Players got tired of having to click five macros to do one thing, and it just took off from there.
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 Fenrir.Vausabant
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By Fenrir.Vausabant 2019-04-05 15:53:00  
I have only used the react lua's once and even then it was still a pain. The topic of those I think depends on where you live and your RL rig. Since the servers are still in Japan they do have to cross a long distance. Yes I know the game is in packets and made for dial up, but when SE starts making things depend on how fast you turn aka when ambu was Lamia and if you didnt look away it all went haywire.

Think of it this way, the server sends the signal to all the PC's involved saying the mob is doing the TP move. Now you try and turn and the server has already started its countdown till it finishes the move. You have turned but now that signal has to make it back to Japan, did you make it before the timer in Japan went out? You may have turned on your screen but the server didn't know it.

This is of course dependent upon where you live. West coast US will have less ping than East coast obviously . This issue has been resolved for 14 with regional servers.

This is very specific issue. But one of many.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 15:59:37  
To give people a better idea of addons/plugins I don't mind using (because SE could've/should've added them to the game anyways), here's a list of what I'm using. I don't feel like a cheat either. I stayed away from Windower for sooo many years out of principle. In the end I caved in, but have never allowed it take me away from the feeling I am in control of my character at all times.

Autoinvite - I'm a Corsair (sometimes), so being able to invite myself to a party is better than waiting for the leader to stop being AFK. But it only works with willing players.

Boxdestroyer - Now .. I could figure out the clues when opening chests (it's not difficult), but this beauty tells you the answers for you. Less time staring at boxes = More time playing the game.

DistancePlus - Knowing when you're in AoE range or not? Priceless. You could always have figured this out yourself through trial and error, but with this the leader can say "stay over 20 yalms away", and you'll know for sure.

FindAll - SE should have introduced this years ago. FindAll lets you look for any piece of equipment or item on ANY of your characters, no matter which character you are on. Less time looking, more time playing.

Gametime - Self explanatory

Omen - The on-screen logs telling you what Omen Objectives to aim for are so incredibly hard to follow .. I do not feel bad having this small box appearing on my screen. So useful!

Organizer - But not as you think! There is only one reason I have Organizer set up, and that's for job changes. In a certain thread, I was informed you can use this addon to "freeze" your inventory for each job. You collect all your equipment and use the following command: //org freeze inventory - This creates a job.lua file that can be refrozen over in future. To bring your gear in, simply be on that job and type //org o inventory - SE's "Inventory Management" mini-game is not something I enjoy, and before this I was using GearCollector.

Rolltracker
- Better log messages for Corsair rolls. Not necessary, just easier to look at.

Scoreboard
- Shows you everyone's damage. Informative.

Silence - Eliminate "Equipment Changed" spam.

THtracker/Timestamp/Tparty - Displays current treasure hunter level. SE added the other two in to the game anyways .. but I still prefer the Windower versions.

FFXIDB
- Adds a minimap to the screen. How has SE never introduced something like this?

Timers
- Displays job/spell recast abilities on screen. Again, how has SE never introduced it? Not that I need it, it just saves me going in to the menu to check the recasts.

There's more addons/plugins I wouldn't consider automation or "giving an advantage" to the point it ruins the experience.
 Phoenix.Erics
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By Phoenix.Erics 2019-04-05 16:00:36  
Theres usually room for non perfect set ups for most things The last couple wave3 wins we got only had 1 idris geo and a non idris geo for 18 ppl one of them i think we had no idris. It took us a bit longer than some other Ls's but we got there. As far as feeling pride i made sure to take a screenshot the first time we beat the bosses and pinned it in discord. I feel pride in my ls members for accomplishments we make and try to let them know that.

As for the the other stuff, I dont have an issue with automation but im also not on a server where other ppl automating affects where id CP or anything we do for events. I feel the games been out long enough where if ppl wanna cheese it they should be allowed to. This isn't a justification for peoples choices but if you compared the base ffxi game to ffxi of say 2008 and prior the QoL adjustments could be considered cheating to a game purist. You move 25% faster now, you have gear sets instead of having 2 or 3 macros for a single ws macro, home point teleports instead of chocobo and airships, RoE gil farming, it goes on.

You shouldnt have a moral dilemma over it, just play it to the level which makes you comfortable.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 16:03:23  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
To give people a better idea of addons/plugins I don't mind using

All of those are very reasonable things that no one is really going to debate are bad for using. You know what else is a game changer though? BATTLEMOD. Super awesome. Mad love for battlemod.

Ohshi is incredible too. When a mob has a *** YOU move, it's nice to isolate it on screen in bright red letters, so that it cant get lost in scrolling chat.

Skillchains is another thing that should just automatically be there. Fantastic add-on. it simply tells you how the mob is "chainbound" and how to complete a skillchain with ws that you currently have.

PetTP. Limited usefulness but something that should just be in the game without having to type a text command.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:09:24  
Phoenix.Erics said: »
Theres usually room for non perfect set ups for most things The last couple wave3 wins we got only had 1 idris geo and a non idris geo for 18 ppl one of them i think we had no idris. It took us a bit longer than some other Ls's but we got there. As far as feeling pride i made sure to take a screenshot the first time we beat the bosses and pinned it in discord. I feel pride in my ls members for accomplishments we make and try to let them know that.

As for the the other stuff, I dont have an issue with automation but im also not on a server where other ppl automating affects where id CP or anything we do for events. I feel the games been out long enough where if ppl wanna cheese it they should be allowed to. This is in no way a justification for peoples choices but if you compared the base ffxi game to ffxi of say 2008 and prior the QoL adjustments could be considered cheating to a game purist. You move 25% faster now, you have gear sets instead of having 2 or 3 macros for a single ws macro, home point teleports instead of chocobo and airships, RoE gil farming, it goes on.

You shouldnt have a moral dilemma over it, just play it to the level which makes you comfortable.

Thank you, it makes sense. This isn't really about my own moral dilemma, but the divide I'm seeing between those who don't care, and those who think others are worse off for not caring.
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 Asura.Chaostaru
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By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-04-05 16:10:27  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
If I used React, I probably wouldn't be getting killed by the Tonberry shadows from last months Ambuscade (they were so annoying to react to).

No, you couldnt use react to those *** *** tonberries. Server latency was a huge factor in that ambu and given you only had 2 seconds to respond, half the time I'd just die from invisible mob cause ***server lag. But yea trust me, if I could of used react for it, I would of.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:12:27  
Asura.Chaostaru said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
If I used React, I probably wouldn't be getting killed by the Tonberry shadows from last months Ambuscade (they were so annoying to react to).

No, you couldnt use react to those *** *** tonberries. Server latency was a huge factor in that ambu and given you only had 2 seconds to respond, half the time I'd just die from invisible mob cause ***server lag. But yea trust me, if I could of used react for it, I would of.

I see, so I should not feel bad getting killed by those things lol. You know what I mean though? Somethings you could react to, and players find it necessary .. while others will say those players suck for needing an aid.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-05 16:12:43  
I don't bot, but a lot of players who do aren't doing it for any cheating/competitive advantage. It's more of a comfort/convenience thing. Try uninstalling even windower and going 100% full vanilla, and you will quickly realize that every aspect of vanilla mode is designed to make you hate that game. Something as simple as being able to see other peoples TP, Objectives for Omen without scrolling back up through text, or timers without having to check ability list is a huge time saver. And FindAll couldn't have been any more necessary in vanilla. How many times have you scrolled through all pf your various bags dozens of times and couldn't find the item you want. Findall isolates it instantly. Can't even put a price on that convenience.
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 Phoenix.Erics
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By Phoenix.Erics 2019-04-05 16:14:39  
React shouldnt work all the time on tonberries unless the whole front arc of your player counts as facing it. He would pop up from 3 different angles react only pushes away. I just kept the camera over my head and lock target off the whole time.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-05 16:16:16  
Is React able to sense TP moves and quickly run out of range of them? The ones that can be kited, i mean.
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 Asura.Chaostaru
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By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-04-05 16:16:48  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Asura.Chaostaru said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
If I used React, I probably wouldn't be getting killed by the Tonberry shadows from last months Ambuscade (they were so annoying to react to).

No, you couldnt use react to those *** *** tonberries. Server latency was a huge factor in that ambu and given you only had 2 seconds to respond, half the time I'd just die from invisible mob cause ***server lag. But yea trust me, if I could of used react for it, I would of.

I see, so I should not feel bad getting killed by those things lol. You know what I mean though? Somethings you could react to, and players find it necessary .. while others will say those players suck for needing an aid.

people can say whatever they want as long as theyre as good as the lua/script doing the same job. If you talk ***about it and dont have the skill to back it up, no one takes you seriously. 99% of people will take a lua user who does his job right, vs a vanilla user drowning in lag and inefficiency all while doing a subpar job. Idc who uses what as long as they do there job well.
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 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-04-05 16:16:52  
I used to be fully against almost every form of this back in the day. Used to crusade against claim bots and the like so bad I still have a bad reputation for it, lol. But I also play middle of the night and have found myself some friends who utilize...all of it. I have the Eiryl's who make money off this game and have multiple accounts running bots at all times, I have people who just run multiple accounts and cannot actively play all three perfectly so a bot and/or scripting helps, etc.

Personally I've used gearswap ever since I realized how necessary it was (when I first learned Send but couldn't figure out how to send a gear swap for each spell sent lol) and for a long while that was my only automation. I picked up a 3rd account last November and started utilizing a heal bot on it, but I also then moved away from using it. The third character went from being a WHM to being a RDM, and I have send commands to cast nearly all of his relevant spells, and he does more than a trust does, so I usually try to not bot him. This doesn't apply to when I do group content though, as I toss him into auto mode for Dynamis hasting (and then have to supplement with casts on my own since it's really bad with keeping haste up in a moving alliance).

I'm not a huge fan of botting everything. I see why people do it for gil making, and that's a double edged sword of sorts as the bots also make a thriving economy with endless delve/vagary/voidwatch drops and the sort, and I see why people do it when they're multi-boxing. But I don't like seeing people utilize it on their mains, and aside from botted whm's often being better in *some* fights, a player who knows what they're doing is going to be far better than an automated one basically anywhere.

I saw the bitchfest from Eiryl about how EVERYONE SHOULD USE REACT in this months Ambu, and I simply do not agree. How someone can constantly *** about everyone being bad, and then insist on them utilizing tools that prevent them from getting better, is a bit hypocritical in my mind. That said, when attempting to duo-tribox with a friend, he did utilize React on one of his accounts for the barspells. Sure didn't win us the fight though, we wiped a few times and will be trying again tonight with a more focused strategy.

I couldn't play this game without gearswap, as it allows me to maximize all my sets without too much hassle, but I also couldn't just let the game play for me either. I adapted to Selindrile's luas a few weeks ago and I go in and bug him every few days about how to turn off a lot of the automated aspects to it, lol. My usual stance has been "If this is an addon that would be allowed in WoW, it's okay for FFXI". Gearswap would exist in WoW, if such a thing was possible, IMO. React would and wouldn't. For example in this months Ambuscade when the Homemaker spawns, DeadlyBossMods in WoW (which has been fully accepted by the WoW dev team and they actually started programming knowing people use it) would flash on your screen "<t> is being targeted by Bozzetto Homemaker! Move away from them!" and make loud noises. Which to me is kind of interesting because it shows that while FFXI goes above and beyond in some forms of automation compared to "accepted" play, I've come to realize that other MMO's have their own grey areas in that regard too that isn't even possible with FFXI's infrastructure. Though there is a decent chance someone could make an addon for that specific purpose, too.

But I also notice myself getting "worse" as time goes on. I'm getting lazier, and I think part of that is I need to take a break but I haven't, so I'm not as worried about my "pride" or "purity" as I once was. Or maybe it's just that if I took my old stance to be hard against automation, I'd be playing solo again...
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:17:00  
Phoenix.Erics said: »
React shouldnt work all the time on tonberries unless the whole front arc of your player counts as facing it. He would pop up from 3 different angles react only pushes away. I just kept the camera over my head and lock target off the whole time.

Yeah I was doing that also, but I'd always get killed at least once a fight although I was reacting asap. The Tonberry thing was meant to be an example, but it's not good enough. What about something you could react to which is usually difficult, but is pretty much negated by using React? There's gotta' be a better example of this somewhere.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 16:18:48  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Is React able to sense TP moves and quickly run out of range of them? The ones that can be kited, i mean.

Yes. "run away" and "turn around" are valid commands

We/I use it to "run away" from thinker and other stupid ***in omen.
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 Asura.Chaostaru
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By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-04-05 16:22:30  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Phoenix.Erics said: »
React shouldnt work all the time on tonberries unless the whole front arc of your player counts as facing it. He would pop up from 3 different angles react only pushes away. I just kept the camera over my head and lock target off the whole time.

Yeah I was doing that also, but I'd always get killed at least once a fight although I was reacting asap. The Tonberry thing was meant to be an example, but it's not good enough. What about something you could react to which is usually difficult, but is pretty much negated by using React? There's gotta' be a better example of this somewhere.

biggest thing was you could turn immediately but your character is in the middle of a quad attack so from the tonberry's POV you arent facing it. That was the biggest kick in the balls of all
 Phoenix.Erics
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By Phoenix.Erics 2019-04-05 16:23:03  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
What about something you could react to which is usually difficult, but is pretty much negated by using React? There's gotta' be a better example of this somewhere.
Its not difficult on its own but react would stop white dmg on the omen thinker faster during pain sync. Thats the only use i can think of for turning around really fast.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:30:03  
Thanks Lady, that was quite the experience reading your take on it. Personally I can't imagine having any kind of automation while in combat, it'd feel so weird after not needing it for years. I can't get my head around why people find it necessary. Like, I'm still topping parses and stuff on my DRK without it. The only thing I'd probably want to use it for is mage jobs, just for all the manual equip changes you have to make (like having fast cast before everything).

But even on mage jobs it's not making or breaking the game for me. Like Erics said above, you don't need the absolute optimal setup to win things. There's some very small incremental improvements to be found, but nothing that's going to turn a loss in to a win or vice versa. It's usually a lack of knowledge on what a job is meant to do which kills groups (like WHMs who don't know how to Curaga, PLDs who don't know how to use Sentinel etc).
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:31:49  
Phoenix.Erics said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
What about something you could react to which is usually difficult, but is pretty much negated by using React? There's gotta' be a better example of this somewhere.
Its not difficult on its own but react would stop white dmg on the omen thinker faster during pain sync. Thats the only use i can think of for turning around really fast.

I do this on my own without React .. but my dad, whether he is on Warrior or Summoner, ALWAYS screws us with Pain Sync because his reflexes are not great. So I tell him not to bother usually .. just let me do it on DRK. If someone has bad reflexes? I can see why they're using React. But you don't learn that way either. How do you learn to react better if you're using React to do it for you?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 16:32:44  
Reaction speed isn't something you can learn.

You can either do it or you can't. We get old man. Reaction speed is going to slow.

Look at this months ambuscade again. It is physically impossible to cast the proper spell. (multiple factors) No matter how much you practice. You can only get lucky.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-05 16:33:45  
Nothing is "difficult on its own" to react to to be fair. It's just something you HAVE to look out for. Its like when they invite you to zerde and you're asked to be stun duty. Looking out for Just Desserts isn't hard, but it's annoying to sift through text waiting for it. React eliminates any need to have to actively pay attention to it. I don't think there's any example of things you can't normally react to, but when you're in the middle of battle pressing buttons, it can take you several seconds to fire off that button that might save your life. React sounds more like a convenience.

With that being said, reaction is a natural part of video games, and it's what invokes the human element into it. Having a program that could instantly react to every scenario would remove any enjoyment I would get out of playing, but that's just me.
 Phoenix.Erics
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By Phoenix.Erics 2019-04-05 16:35:32  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
How do you learn to react better if you're using React to do it for you?
That questions usually the base of arguments against mercing or using addons at all. Its a bigger question than anyone here based on how much it comes up and i dont think you can get a definitive answer.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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user: Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 16:36:30  
Ohshi is an addon that eliminates that "sifting through text" problem.

it will put:

Zerde: Just Desserts (!) In bright red letters on the middle of your screen, if you want it to.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Kylos
Posts: 4295
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:38:35  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Nothing is "difficult on its own" to react to to be fair. It's just something you HAVE to look out for. Its like when they invite you to zerde and you're asked to be stun duty. Looking out for Just Desserts isn't hard, but it's annoying to sift through text waiting for it. React eliminates any need to have to actively pay attention to it. I don't think there's any example of things you can't normally react to, but when you're in the middle of battle pressing buttons, it can take you several seconds to fire off that button that might save your life. React sounds more like a convenience.

As a DRK for life, stunning has always been a huge part of this game for me. Having an addon do it for me? Takes a lot of fun out of it. Saved so many lives because I reacted in the right moment. I would never have got at good at stunning if I started this game with an addon; it came through years of experience doing it in high pressure situations. So while some may see React as a convenience, I see it as something which stifles your potential to learn how to anticipate a mobs behaviour.
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Posts: 1533
By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-04-05 16:39:24  
Ultimately the question of whether and how much you want to automate difficult content comes down to how much you actually value endgame content as a play experience. Some people really enjoy it and consider it a culmination of their in-game experiences, and for others it's an annoying necessity to get through for the sake of gear and their friends.

I don't think there's really a right or wrong answer for everyone, because we're all doing this stuff in groups and while the broad goal might be the same the reasons for doing it are different. Maybe your WHM friend leans on Cure-Please as much as he possibly can and that irks you, but he does it because he hates endgame fights and if he couldn't just show up and lean on gear + AI to do his bit he'd be stressed and miserable. Are you really gonna tell him he's wrong?
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 Phoenix.Erics
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サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: prophets
Posts: 569
By Phoenix.Erics 2019-04-05 16:40:09  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Reaction speed isn't something you can learn.
im not sure if thats true, but its definitely something that can be enhanced with chemicals.
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