(cerb) Kirin / Kouryu (Do You Need It?)

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(cerb) Kirin / Kouryu (Do You Need It?)
 Asura.Avallon
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By Asura.Avallon 2017-08-23 08:38:57  
Kodaijin said: »
Just transfer already

I respect his fierce loyalty to Cerberus. I was that way also for a very long time. I think though that Kylos would just assume take 4 years to make his first Aeonic than to leave Cerb. At some point though, imo he is either going to eventually quit the game, or come to his senses and transfer with his Dad (as well as perhaps a few dedicated LS friends of his).
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By Kodaijin 2017-08-23 11:40:09  
Asura.Avallon said: »
Kodaijin said: »
Just transfer already

I respect his fierce loyalty to Cerberus. I was that way also for a very long time. I think though that Kylos would just assume take 4 years to make his first Aeonic than to leave Cerb. At some point though, imo he is either going to eventually quit the game, or come to his senses and transfer with his Dad (as well as perhaps a few dedicated LS friends of his).

Oh I know the feeling. The funny thing is, on Asura now, I run into more people i played with for years on cerb than I did on cerb before the transfer. (they had already made the move before me)

Also, I thought there would be a big difference between servers before I made the move, and there wasnt.(i thought it would feel different) It felt more like the days of old where there was always something going on. And TBH, the server name flashes on the screen and thats the sum of the differences between servers. (that and Pazuzu i guess...)
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-23 13:36:32  
I remain on Cerberus for the sake of our friends. I can't force them to transfer. Quilly already said he would remain on the server til he was the last one on it (I think he doesn't want to have to start his social LS again on a new server). If we transferred we could probably find the people to do stuff, but we'd be leaving others on their lonesome. I would feel bad running around getting all these things done while the people I brought up through Vagary, Geas Fete and Omen are sat there on the quietest server with no leader.

I'm not selfish like that. I'm not in any major rush to get an Aeonic, if I was I'd have been on another server (not Asura ..) a couple of years ago. I continue to prove we can get things done on this server, even if it is difficult. I was so frustrated last night, it was unreal how little response there was to doing a Kouryu .. I couldn't even find a Thief of all things.

But it's cool .. my linkshell understands I'm doing everything I can to make a group which can do the hardest content on one of the quietest servers. It's not about being the #1 LS on the server. Hell, it's not even about farming 10 Aeonics for something to do. We do this for the fun, and if it takes a little longer we'll have to endure the hardships and celebrate even harder when we make breakthroughs. I don't have any sentiment to the server itself, I only ever cared about staying on Hades as it was the nicest server around even if it had a low population to the point it was deactivated. It was tough in 2009 before the merge .. but it didn't stop our enjoyment.
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 Leviathan.Vedder
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By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-08-23 13:58:28  
Cheers kylos. Keep it up man, you'll all get those wins.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-24 13:53:31  
As far as Kirin/Kouryu goes, we have to wait to do this again til I am convinced we have the players who have the jobs and are capable of doing this reliably. Getting everyone on at the same time is another huge obstacle which is more difficult than the content itself.

There's also a lack of communication, as in .. I can talk for England and give plenty of details, but no one gives me details back. It always feels like I'm talking at people .. instead of them telling me what's what. It shouldn't be this way, and most of our members are very quiet. I need some members in the LS who can jump in and lead events .. including ones I am in when I'm away or busy.

I'm sick and tired of being the leader .. because no one can grab the bull by the horns and lead something themselves. I need more players who are not afraid to use their initiative, and even more importantly, are capable of telling me "no". Which is very important as I can't always be right.

I've been looking for someone like this for a long time, I used to have players like Overlordandy or Misart who would just take over .. and I'd gladly let them. But nowadays either I set something up and go into every little detail with every player we have .. or we do nothing that day. I'm not saying I want someone to lead me, I'm asking .. like on Star Trek where you have a commander (captains #1), someone I can turn to and say "you're in charge, I'm not up for it right now", and they'll do it as good as me. Massive ask I know, but having that made my old Dynamis linkshell (which had the same name as our current LS) very successful and easy to manage.
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 Valefor.Philemon
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By Valefor.Philemon 2017-08-24 15:38:41  
You probably have too many people who don't really care. They don't care if they get Aeonic clears. Sure it'd be nice, but they don't want it bad enough to put forth more than the minimum amount of effort and certainly won't level or gear anything extra that could push you over the hump. If you schedule something, they'll show up and be willing to help out and come on any job, but they won't question your strategy or give you feedback.

Yeah that's a rough position to be in.
 Shiva.Arislan
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By Shiva.Arislan 2017-08-24 15:49:18  
People like to make it sound like these fights are 'easy', you can just walk up and steamroll them, or you just need Job X and Job Y to win, or all you have to do is follow some paint by numbers forum strategy to victory.

For most groups, these fights still aren't easy, even given all the increased stats on recent armor. And to make things more complicated, what works for one group may not translate to another, given differences in player skill on particular jobs.

Rock-solid teamwork and sound tactics are the only way that a group with casual/semi-casual players will make it through an Aeonic cycle on their own.

That means to have a chance, you'll need to dive deep into the game's mechanics to fish out every advantage that you can. Know your team's strengths and your enemy's weaknesses, and exploit everything that you can.

For example, here's some stuff off the top of my head that people usually don't take advantage of:

- Fade/Fend,
- Rotating a single Bolster'd bubble between multiple GEO's,
- Carols, Pining Nocturne,
- Boosting Dia w/ Light Shot,
- Sacrosanctity/Asylum/Divine Veil/Sacrifice,
- Using Stymie'd Frazzle II to land Saboteur'd Frazzle III,
- Circle abilities (Holy, Ancient, Arcane, etc),
- Making multi-step skillchains to maximize group DPS,
- Magic evasion sets,
- Using Impact to keep a 'level down' effect on,
- Using temps like Braver's, Fighter's, Barbarian's, etc,
- Decoy shot, Sirvente/Dirge, Animus Minuo/Augeo, etc,
- Angon, Full Break, Box Step, etc.

These things won't win fights on their own, but when you start adding them to your repertoire and their effects start to aggregate, you'll discover that they give you more margin for error/flexibility/power than you had before. You may white knuckle your way to a clear once, but to make a fight repeatable and reliable, takes tactics.

With respect to teamwork, there's no substitute for practice, practice, practice (and patience). You don't have to wait for Kirin to practice things you will use on Kirin, too. Find ways to work relevant tactics/job combos into other content you'll be doing anyway (Omen, T2-T3's, Ambu, etc).

The vast majority of players will struggle under pressure to perform complex tasks, especially if it's something they're doing for the first time. Work with them to repeat things over and over until it becomes second nature. You're only as strong as your weakest link.

Training up your own team isn't easy. Most people will just server jump or LS jump or SMN burn to easy wins. What you seem to be doing, sir, is totally in the spirit of the game, and I wish more people were doing it like you are.

Good luck.
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 Phoenix.Libbien
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By Phoenix.Libbien 2017-08-24 16:01:04  
That's not always the case. Some people just find leading events to be overly stressful and/or don't trust themselves. The biggest issue I find with people struggling to lead events is they lack a good enough understanding of jobs they don't play to put them in the right place to succeed. Good players also don't necessarily mean good leaders.

The thing that really helped me in a similar situation was just encouraging other people to take initiative on smaller scale stuff. T4's and even Omen bosses can be intimidating for someone who isn't normally in a position to lead a group. I've even gone as far as "leading" a group from afar, meaning i set up their pt and strat and told them to have fun while I was doing something else.

That probably sounds ridiculous, but I've received similar help before and it's made me who I am today. Had a friend, Hova, basically lead an incursion run through me, (he was sending me /tells on how to organize crap) allowing me to take on the appearance of leading w/o actually leading. Through that I was able to ask him questions on why this job goes in that pt when I was confused (mostly geo as I'd just returned at the time and knew nothing about geo). I know how that seems, but I don't forget how I got where I am and I wouldn't be anywhere near as good at organizing/leading crap w/o his help. Now every event I do I'm leading because it's a role I'm most comfortable with and it started with that simple /assist from Hova.

Point is, you can't force people to take initiative, but you can certainly make sure they have the skill/knowledge needed to do so. First impressions are huge and if the first experience goes poorly, they will likely be less interested in attempting to lead again as will people be less likely to join their event lol.
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 Leviathan.Vedder
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By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-08-24 16:06:10  
^ this (arislan)
Another tactic not mentioned and should be is rotating bed/cor buffers and making sure they know what rolls/songs they are we responsible for and how to do the swaps smoothly and having dedicated zerg type equipsets especially on a war with mighty strikes reso spam for example valo gear augmented for crit damage etc taking into account the buffs that will be in play so may be you won't need super high acc on it for example. There's some sets for that on the war thread that Ejin and Saev had uh, debated LOL
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-24 16:13:48  
Thanks Arislan. I'm doing it the way we used to back in the dynamis days when you had to work as a team or wipe the entire group and cost everyone time and rewards. I want everyone to enjoy the content, and to be able to succeed, but I find it difficult doing almost everything on my own. I'm always asking my pearlsacks to do things so they may decide to do it themselves in the future without my asking.

I'd very much like to direct some of my players to your post. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something in there we are overlooking. We already do a good enough job of having multi step skillchains (my dad and I are the main DD, so we figure it out between us) and popping temps. Neak is a great example of setting up for a Kirin, it's a similar zerg strategy. A couple of weeks ago we beat a few Neaks to prepare ourselves for doing Kouryu again.

I don't believe my players have a lack of passion, I think they are not natural leaders. I turned to them because they were loyal to the LS, but they have always been quiet players who work well with others. They are trustworthy, and do their jobs, which is all I ask. One of my pearlsacks runs with another group, so we've worked together to form strategies from his experiences and my research. Once we beat something new, I note down the strat we used and refer back to it later. I also ask him to assign bubbles as he's got way more experience doing it from our Vagary days when we often ran with 2-3 GEO.

It's tough having little choice as it limits what we can do. Like say, if we had an army of summoners I could jump on SCH so we can Tabula Rasa Blood Pact something down. For the moment our biggest DD potential is Quilly and I on DRK and WAR, which I know isn't optimal on certain things. For example, on Kouryu I would gladly switch to COR if we had a DRG.

For now I'm working on helping a EU group get more members so they can improve at an earlier time, while I work on Q, myself, and NA players who are great players, but are behind on content. In time I'm hoping this hard work pays off. When the time is right we can combine different groups and take the best from both so we have a better chance. It's an uphill fight, but we ain't going to stop climbing.
 Phoenix.Libbien
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By Phoenix.Libbien 2017-08-24 16:29:22  
I'll add to Arislan's great post as well.

- Putting the tank in the outside pt and using a rdm to heal them on fights that aren't too hard to tank so they can enfeeb as well. (wouldn't do this for Vini/Schah)

- Repeating fights if necessary. Sometimes you can't take everyone at once, so doing the fight over is often an overlooked easy solution. If you lack mules to do prefight rolls/songs, you can just do the fights twice and have actual static members do prefight buffs for some extra punch w/o the added hp from scaling.

- Brd "half" rotation. What I mean is you don't need 2 brds to necessarily "rotate". You don't need to keep the brd in the main pt. I normally do for extra healing support, but if we take more than 9, I'll bring 4 dd's and do ddx4, geo, whm in 1 pt and move the brd to 2nd pt after buffing first (geo would drop initially for songs then jump back in before popping).

- This should be obvious, but worth stating. If buff jobs are just standing there, they aren't doing their job. These fights are insanely difficult and everyone needs to contribute in every area they're capable of. This means geos helping cure/enfeeb. brds helping with cures/nas/hastes, and even blus using Winds of Promy should the need arise.

- Lastly, this also gets overlooked, is people need to farm vorseals. They are a huge help. There's a huge difference between people who have 4-5 of each vorseal vs 8-10. Obvious I know, but overlooked still.
 Leviathan.Vedder
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By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-08-24 17:56:20  
Yea the vorseals are a quick added buff in some cases. Alsi, I know its not every ones cup of tea but some cheer effects can help as well from monster rearing.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-24 18:03:34  
Leviathan.Vedder said: »
Yea the vorseals are a quick added buff in some cases. Alsi, I know its not every ones cup of tea but some cheer effects can help as well from monster rearing.

Ved, Have you beat WoC/Kirin yet? Maybe I can suggest you go over and help him Drk + Drk = Win
 Leviathan.Vedder
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By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-08-24 18:17:51  
Beaten kouryu 3x no WoC still
 Leviathan.Vedder
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By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-08-24 18:19:04  
Was before I grabbed malformed/started around too so I got the vorseal but credit on aeonic
 Leviathan.Vedder
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By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-08-24 18:25:16  
Also do u guys have revitilizers? Could use ja prebuff use it buy another and quickly pop? Aza does this and I always "drk-buff" before popping NMs. Could possibly get a ds/nv d3 off then a ds/nv abs acc/STR/vit/whatever on a fodder pre pop. Just ideas
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-08-24 18:36:29  
If you ever need help, let me know. Pretty sure one of my favorite things to do in game is Revit to reset my angon, pop Ancient Circle and Dragon Breaker as Kouryu pops, and proceed to murder him.
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 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-24 19:25:33  
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
If you ever need help, let me know. Pretty sure one of my favorite things to do in game is Revit to reset my angon, pop Ancient Circle and Dragon Breaker as Kouryu pops, and proceed to murder him.

His butt just needs to be on and provide pops we have the numbers and reliable setup to win both WoC and Kirin for his quest
 Leviathan.Vedder
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By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-08-24 19:50:58  
Yea we good ourselves. Just looking to help our friend from across the pond on cerb
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-24 22:34:29  
Also, incase ppl wana talk strat rather than type so much can always make a Discord chat and let people speak, which often adds a lot of clarification over type.
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