(cerb) Kirin / Kouryu (Do You Need It?)

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(cerb) Kirin / Kouryu (Do You Need It?)
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 11:33:54  
This is only for players on the Cerberus server. A number of months ago my LS attempted Kirin/Kouryu and came close to winning (one attempt we wiped at 3%), but due to a few failed attempts trying it the DD and Scholar MB ways we decided to put it on the backburner and improve our jobs.

Since then we've beaten Omen bosses, got +3s, and proven our worth against Reisenjima T2s and T3s. I feel like we're about ready to do this again, but I don't want to try it without knowing we have the best players we can find. I know the server isn't very populated at NA/EU time, which is why I post here to try and reach out.

We don't want to take 18 (not that it's possible), but my LS is averaging 6-7 players a run at the moment and I feel we need a few more to do Kirin. A Rdm would be fantastic. I'm also considering a Summoner MB burn, which is possible and we already have a job master SMN in the LS who is close to finishing Nirvana.

So on this quiet little server of ours .. we keep trying to work towards our first Aeonic, but we know Kirin has blocked our progress for some time. I hope one day we can prove that we can make Aeonics with the few players we have. Please let me know if you're interested in this. I will stress that if you are not sufficiently geared and/or have many of Escha's vorseals then we might not be able to take you.

We have plenty of pops waiting to be used, but the biggest problem is getting everyone on .. together, at the same time, on the right jobs, which is why I have not set a date or time for this yet. I'll take people who just want to help out as well, as long as they don't take the places of others who could use the clear for Aeonic. Cheers everyone.

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By Justuas 2017-08-11 12:10:13  
At first I thought this was gonna be another merc thread. Was wrong.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 12:14:40  
Justuas said: »
At first I thought this was gonna be another merc thread. Was wrong.

Rest assured .. if the post is done by me, it will never be a merc thread.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-08-11 12:25:13  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Justuas said: »
At first I thought this was gonna be another merc thread. Was wrong.

Rest assured .. if the post is done by me, it will never be a merc thread.
Unless......

We hijack it to be one!

{Asura} Bubbly Bernie fight! First come, first serve! 50 million + pop + drops + 10 Jinxed Jackets will net you a win! If we fail, I still keep all the stuff, just better luck next time.
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 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-11 12:28:48  
Sounds like he just needs a few able body ppl who will help and wont be all uptight about a few fights
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 12:40:51  
Pretty much. I already had some promising messages so I'll be on the game later to see who in my LS is up for this, and what kind of jobs we'll need most. I'd like to try a SMN burn first, but if not it might be easier to do a melee setup as my DRK and Quillys WAR are way better than when we smashed it down to 3%. Again it depends who we have, but we have a bunch of pops so we can experiment til something works.
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By Darksparksnot 2017-08-11 12:52:06  
If kirin is a cockblock on your path then you're not ready for aeonic, throwing more bodies at it won't solve a thing unless they are better geared and/or skilled, in that case you will be leeching of them.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 12:55:52  
Darksparksnot said: »
If kirin is a cockblock on your path then you're not ready for aeonic, throwing more bodies at it won't solve a thing unless they are better geared and/or skilled, in that case you will be leeching of them.

Well we ain't tried it in months .. so we don't know unless we try. Pretty sure we understood if we can't beat Kirin we won't get an Aeonic .. you're pointing out the obvious dude.
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 Phoenix.Libbien
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By Phoenix.Libbien 2017-08-11 13:18:40  
Darksparksnot said: »
If kirin is a cockblock on your path then you're not ready for aeonic, throwing more bodies at it won't solve a thing unless they are better geared and/or skilled, in that case you will be leeching of them.

He already said they decided they needed to get better gear and try again later, and now they're ready to try again.

I recently just got my first aeonic and let me warn you, it's hard to find relevant info these days with all the changes to mob stats, geo spells, etc. We got hung up on kirin at first too and tried many different methods including smns bursting wind blade, but I can honestly say melee is the way to go. Don't listen to people who say a pld should be able to hold adds solo without support. Use a 2nd whm just for the add pld and you will buy yourself a ton of time to kill kouryu.

The other thing I'd like to add is be patient. We struggled badly at first with WoC and kirin because we were a diverse group who didn't have a ton of experience playing with each other despite being in the same ls. We spent nearly 2 months (we only went once per week for 2ish hours max) trying to get past kirin and WoC, but as we got familiar with each other we got a lot better. After that struggle, we only had 1 week in reisen where we didnt beat at least 1 HELM (sadly it was our last NM too lol damn you albumen). On round 2 now and things are a whole lot easier, experience and familiarity with each other are huge.

Stick with it and best of luck from Phoenix!
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 13:27:33  
Phoenix.Libbien said: »
He already said they decided they needed to get better gear and try again later, and now they're ready to try again.

I recently just got my first aeonic and let me warn you, it's hard to find relevant info these days with all the changes to mob stats, geo spells, etc. We got hung up on kirin at first too and tried many different methods including smns bursting wind blade, but I can honestly say melee is the way to go. Don't listen to people who say a pld should be able to hold adds solo without support. Use a 2nd whm just for the add pld and you will buy yourself a ton of time to kill kouryu.

The other thing I'd like to add is be patient. We struggled badly at first with WoC and kirin because we were a diverse group who didn't have a ton of experience playing with each other despite being in the same ls. We spent nearly 2 months (we only went once per week for 2ish hours max) trying to get past kirin and WoC, but as we got familiar with each other we got a lot better. After that struggle, we only had 1 week in reisen where we didnt beat at least 1 HELM (sadly it was our last NM too lol damn you albumen). On round 2 now and things are a whole lot easier, experience and familiarity with each other are huge.

Stick with it and best of luck from Phoenix!

Cheers! Luckily for us we've played together for a couple of years now and should know what to expect of each other. I think the first time we tried this we were geared well, but not as good as we are now. We didn't have +3s and vorseals from T2-3 Reisenjimas. We struggled finding the right setup for Kirin / Kouryu as the GEO bubble update happened not long before so I couldn't find many testimonials.

I'm looking forward to this .. Quilly and I make quite the melee combination (Q is my dad so we communicate and I tell him the skillchain) as we've played together since 2005, and we are still annoyed about wiping at 3% .. one or two more WS and we'd have moved on months ago.

Edit: Question. If we did it melee way, would we be better off doing a four-step skillchain (so any GEOs can magic burst aero), or would it be better to give Quilly a great sword and have us spam Reso? I know it's a zerg fight, we tried it a few times, I'm just thinking about overall potential from a multi step compared to WSing at every opportunity.
 Phoenix.Libbien
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By Phoenix.Libbien 2017-08-11 13:47:28  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Phoenix.Libbien said: »
He already said they decided they needed to get better gear and try again later, and now they're ready to try again.

I recently just got my first aeonic and let me warn you, it's hard to find relevant info these days with all the changes to mob stats, geo spells, etc. We got hung up on kirin at first too and tried many different methods including smns bursting wind blade, but I can honestly say melee is the way to go. Don't listen to people who say a pld should be able to hold adds solo without support. Use a 2nd whm just for the add pld and you will buy yourself a ton of time to kill kouryu.

The other thing I'd like to add is be patient. We struggled badly at first with WoC and kirin because we were a diverse group who didn't have a ton of experience playing with each other despite being in the same ls. We spent nearly 2 months (we only went once per week for 2ish hours max) trying to get past kirin and WoC, but as we got familiar with each other we got a lot better. After that struggle, we only had 1 week in reisen where we didnt beat at least 1 HELM (sadly it was our last NM too lol damn you albumen). On round 2 now and things are a whole lot easier, experience and familiarity with each other are huge.

Stick with it and best of luck from Phoenix!

Cheers! Luckily for us we've played together for a couple of years now and should know what to expect of each other. I think the first time we tried this we were geared well, but not as good as we are now. We didn't have +3s and vorseals from T2-3 Reisenjimas. We struggled finding the right setup for Kirin / Kouryu as the GEO bubble update happened not long before so I couldn't find many testimonials.

I'm looking forward to this .. Quilly and I make quite the melee combination (Q is my dad so we communicate and I tell him the skillchain) as we've played together since 2005, and we are still annoyed about wiping at 3% .. one or two more WS and we'd have moved on months ago.

Lol i think everyone has that one that got away the first time around. On our first attempt over a year ago we wiped to WoC at 1% to SV charm fest with tons of adds out. Had i, as sch, just made grav scs even though death was down for comet/impact instead of distortion, we probably would have won that fight. It ate me up bad and we tried several other times after to no avail and we just gave up for awhile. When we got back around to aeonics a few months ago and finally beat WoC after several more failed attempts, I about jumped out of my chair lol.

As for kirin setup if it helps, we went pld (popper) whm geo (vex/frailty on kirin) in 1 pt and whm geo (attune/fury) brd (mad x2, minuet x2, honor march or victory march if no aeonic brd) run dd dd. If people have mules, that also helps for cor rolls and such before you pop. Brd needs to help cure the out of pt geo, but otherwise the rest is straightforward. Use steadfast tonic before kouryu pops and have run use sp2 after they wear. I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff but did JUST go through it for the first time so if you have a hard time finding info or just want some non troll advice, feel free to PM me lol. Good luck!
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 14:06:47  
All this talk makes me want to wreck it now .. but yeah, Kouryu's time will come. We understand the basics, and I think we did them alright the last couple of times (building up buffs, popping the right temps at the right time, knowing where to stand after Kouryu pops etc), I think we lacked a little bit of firepower which we surely have now.
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 Phoenix.Libbien
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By Phoenix.Libbien 2017-08-11 14:39:59  
Without proper nuke buffs, the geos wouldnt burst very well. Even with focus/lang, magic damage isn't that impressive anymore and that was idris focus/lang at that. As for just having bonus sc dmg though over spamming reso, it's impossible to say from the outside for sure. If reso beats the weaker ws plus sc dmg then obviously go with reso, but there are other factors involved such as dps lost while holding tp to sc with someone that is harder to quantify. Considering the variables in this particular fight such as terror duration differences, dispels, etc, I'd say go with your best ws and ignore scs unless you arent giving up too much ws dmg to make said sc.

Full disclosure though, im a sch and brd main so I'm sure you could get better input on the war thread for his options lol.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 15:43:36  
Phoenix.Libbien said: »
Without proper nuke buffs, the geos wouldnt burst very well. Even with focus/lang, magic damage isn't that impressive anymore and that was idris focus/lang at that. As for just having bonus sc dmg though over spamming reso, it's impossible to say from the outside for sure. If reso beats the weaker ws plus sc dmg then obviously go with reso, but there are other factors involved such as dps lost while holding tp to sc with someone that is harder to quantify. Considering the variables in this particular fight such as terror duration differences, dispels, etc, I'd say go with your best ws and ignore scs unless you arent giving up too much ws dmg to make said sc.

Full disclosure though, im a sch and brd main so I'm sure you could get better input on the war thread for his options lol.

Yeah the only issue is he doesn't have Ragnarok. He's got a Zulfiqar but not sure if it would beat Conqueror. He favours Upheaval and it links up with Resolution for Light, which is what we did last time.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-08-11 15:43:52  
If melee zerging, DRG is pretty nice in the main DD PT.


Phase 1
Angon
Can Ancient Circle Early
Super Revit
DD

Phase 2
Dragon Breaker (Weakens attacks/Macc)
Ancient Circle (Enhances Attack and gives DT II against dragons)
Angon
DD
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 15:45:31  
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
If melee zerging, DRG is pretty nice in the main DD PT.


Phase 1
Angon
Super Revit
DD

Phase 2
Dragon Breaker (Weakens attacks/Macc)
Ancient Circle (Enhances Attack and gives DT II against dragons)
Angon
DD

I was considering this too, sadly I don't know any DRGs. Why would you Angon on the first phase? It's easy enough already.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-08-11 15:46:39  
super revit lets you use it on both phases and neither phase should live as long as angon lasts, no reason not to
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 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-11 15:54:58  
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
If melee zerging, DRG is pretty nice in the main DD PT.


Phase 1
Angon
Can Ancient Circle Early
Super Revit
DD

Phase 2
Dragon Breaker (Weakens attacks/Macc)
Ancient Circle (Enhances Attack and gives DT II against dragons)
Angon
DD
Can also use Run 2nd 1hr Odyllic Subterfuge as well for 2nd phase?
I really hope this comes to fruition and this LS can get win with confidence. Was also thinking to make sure you cap vorseals as well as Blessings since event is going on can kill Naga Raja a bunch of times to get all blessings up. This may or may not break a fight for some/many but when low manning and going for Win #1, stack the deck in your favor as much as you can. Bard buffs Cor rolls Geo bubbles (Make sure to act on both forms so bubble counts toward both) Super reivt helps TONS and Ballz to the wall. As far as Skill chain planning, no. over all DPS will just be spammy as 1 person does not get TP off in time, or wrong order = fail attempt so just bypass that notion and Break it's face.
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-08-11 15:58:52  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
If melee zerging, DRG is pretty nice in the main DD PT.


Phase 1
Angon
Super Revit
DD

Phase 2
Dragon Breaker (Weakens attacks/Macc)
Ancient Circle (Enhances Attack and gives DT II against dragons)
Angon
DD

I was considering this too, sadly I don't know any DRGs. Why would you Angon on the first phase? It's easy enough already.

Has anyone ever said:
"Well gee, I sure wish I could do less damage during a zerg."?

Also my apologies if that sounded ***-ish, was not my intent.

Sure it's easy, but it's nice to make him die even faster.

Also I wanted to add the actual numbers for Ancient Circle. I was mobile at the time.

Quote:
Gives party members in range the effect of Dragon Killer.
If the Dragon Killer trait is already present, the trait is strengthened.
Main job gives a unique 15% damage bonus against dragons, 15% damage resistance from dragons, and likely +15% Dragon Killer.

Stacked with 25% Defense Down, and Dragon Breaker

Job Points
Quote:
Ancient Circle Effect Reduces the amount of damage taken from dragons while under the effects of Ancient Circle. Reduces damage taken by 1.
So an additional X20 is possible with JP. I'm assuming it adds +20% DT, I was messing with Quetz. and I basically nullified a majority of his damage. With DT Gear on/Phalanx 2 I was getting hit for maybe 10-20 a swing. Also this goes well beyond the 50% DT Cap.

Also Vishap Brais +1/+2/+3
Quote:
Increases effect duration by 50% and increases potency by 2%.

It's very niche overall, but comes in handy on Kirin/Kouryu. Also lasts 4:30/5:00
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-11 16:01:09  
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
If melee zerging, DRG is pretty nice in the main DD PT.


Phase 1
Angon
Super Revit
DD

Phase 2
Dragon Breaker (Weakens attacks/Macc)
Ancient Circle (Enhances Attack and gives DT II against dragons)
Angon
DD

I was considering this too, sadly I don't know any DRGs. Why would you Angon on the first phase? It's easy enough already.

Has anyone ever said:
"Well gee, I sure wish I could do less damage during a zerg."?

Sure it's easy, but it's nice to make him die even faster.
Easy enough 1st phase, Harder 2nd phase: Easy enough 1st phase, Easier with angon 2nd phase. Its that simmple but as said above Use on 1st phase, super revit, use on 2nd phase.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 16:27:45  
Yeah it's like Arcane Circle and Arcane Killer on DRK, but for dragons :)

I think our preparation on our melee attempts might not have been optimal, but I did my best with it. We took it easy on Kirin as we wanted to pop some of the short duration temps (except steadfast ofc) at 55-60% so we didn't have to pop them while Kouryu was out, or at the start of Kirin. I also wanted Warcry, Last Resort, and all temps to last, so I figured popping these at the start of Kirin was risky as we could run into trouble with Perfect Dodge and/or Invincible on Kouryu.

Thinking back though .. I mean, I've had a few sleeps since we did it, but I'm sure our melee setups failed because the Pld holding the adds died. The 3% one especially was the Pld getting killed. I talked to Quilly about it, and he remembers it being the Pld who died which caused us to wipe. I think we tried again but it did PD > Invincible, and it put us on the back foot too much.

So after those fails I figured we might have better luck with a MB setup. But this time it was I who messed up royally. I thought I was stood in the right spot (I was on SCH), but clearly not as Kouryu's breath killed me soon as it spawned. I tried to get up and do Tabula, but it didn't go down quick enough so it got difficult. Not afraid to admit when I messed up .. it was all on me.

I do appreciate all the real feedback here. I'll admit Q and I didn't have Super Revitilizer on those attempts, which clearly made it harder. We were willing to give it a shot, and came close without. Considering what we didn't have then, compared to now, it gives me confidence we can do this and look forward to Warder and beyond.
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 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-11 16:50:51  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Yeah it's like Arcane Circle and Arcane Killer on DRK, but for dragons :)

I think our preparation on our melee attempts might not have been optimal, but I did my best with it. We took it easy on Kirin as we wanted to pop some of the short duration temps (except steadfast ofc) at 55-60% so we didn't have to pop them while Kouryu was out, or at the start of Kirin. I also wanted Warcry, Last Resort, and all temps to last, so I figured popping these at the start of Kirin was risky as we could run into trouble with Perfect Dodge and/or Invincible on Kouryu.

Thinking back though .. I mean, I've had a few sleeps since we did it, but I'm sure our melee setups failed because the Pld holding the adds died. The 3% one especially was the Pld getting killed. I talked to Quilly about it, and he remembers it being the Pld who died which caused us to wipe. I think we tried again but it did PD > Invincible, and it put us on the back foot too much.

So after those fails I figured we might have better luck with a MB setup. But this time it was I who messed up royally. I thought I was stood in the right spot (I was on SCH), but clearly not as Kouryu's breath killed me soon as it spawned. I tried to get up and do Tabula, but it didn't go down quick enough so it got difficult. Not afraid to admit when I messed up .. it was all on me.

I do appreciate all the real feedback here. I'll admit Q and I didn't have Super Revitilizer on those attempts, which clearly made it harder. We were willing to give it a shot, and came close without. Considering what we didn't have then, compared to now, it gives me confidence we can do this and look forward to Warder and beyond.
You do know, if any pets are up, K can use those 1hr ability right?
So Genbu = Invincible, byakko = PD etc. Kill them off of face the extra BS off Kouryu
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 16:59:16  
Leviathan.Brotherhood said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Yeah it's like Arcane Circle and Arcane Killer on DRK, but for dragons :)

I think our preparation on our melee attempts might not have been optimal, but I did my best with it. We took it easy on Kirin as we wanted to pop some of the short duration temps (except steadfast ofc) at 55-60% so we didn't have to pop them while Kouryu was out, or at the start of Kirin. I also wanted Warcry, Last Resort, and all temps to last, so I figured popping these at the start of Kirin was risky as we could run into trouble with Perfect Dodge and/or Invincible on Kouryu.

Thinking back though .. I mean, I've had a few sleeps since we did it, but I'm sure our melee setups failed because the Pld holding the adds died. The 3% one especially was the Pld getting killed. I talked to Quilly about it, and he remembers it being the Pld who died which caused us to wipe. I think we tried again but it did PD > Invincible, and it put us on the back foot too much.

So after those fails I figured we might have better luck with a MB setup. But this time it was I who messed up royally. I thought I was stood in the right spot (I was on SCH), but clearly not as Kouryu's breath killed me soon as it spawned. I tried to get up and do Tabula, but it didn't go down quick enough so it got difficult. Not afraid to admit when I messed up .. it was all on me.

I do appreciate all the real feedback here. I'll admit Q and I didn't have Super Revitilizer on those attempts, which clearly made it harder. We were willing to give it a shot, and came close without. Considering what we didn't have then, compared to now, it gives me confidence we can do this and look forward to Warder and beyond.
You do know, if any pets are up, K can use those 1hr ability right?
So Genbu = Invincible, byakko = PD etc. Kill them off of face the extra BS off Kouryu

I did not know that. When do you kill them?
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-11 17:04:33  
We kill them as soon as they pop, we leave the Suzy and Sieryu alone as they can be tanked np, just make sure auto target is off so no 1 hits and the whm wont pull hate. If there is a Mistake can be made in that fight, I'm sure I have made it enough times to tell you what I have done.

Still a Thf who can do nice spike damage is great but Larceny being the only reason to bring them is not enough to make me want them, must be both or none.

Drk Sam Blu Rdm, SMN strat, blm strat w/e you end up with doing as long as you can do it with room to improve and 1hr not needed even if you use, then all the better.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 17:08:49  
Adds go down pretty quick? Also, who usually looks out and pulls them to the DD?
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-11 17:15:20  
Compared to the normal Spawn ones you fight, they are about 1/4 the HP so 2~4ws but with all those buffs its worth it

Also important the tank gets hate 1st on 2n form cuz Breath + spike flail can 1 shot everyone
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-08-11 17:18:29  
Leviathan.Brotherhood said: »
Compared to the normal Spawn ones you fight, they are about 1/4 the HP so 2~4ws but with all those buffs its worth it

Also important the tank gets hate 1st on 2n form cuz Breath + spike flail can 1 shot everyone

Yeah Q and I are popping temps and stuff while the Run gets hate. Also fight it on the foot .. never behind. I hate it when people fight dragons from behind and force Spike Flail.

Usually our Pld is far away from us, so the adds would run that way. So who's stopping them from running off and joining the Pld? Run looks out for it? Or a DD? One of the mages?
 Sylph.Reain
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By Sylph.Reain 2017-08-11 17:18:53  
It sounds like you're playing too conservatively. I would buff before hand and try and kill it before it can summon anything. The summons do die fast apart from perfect dodge/Invincible so you should be able to change target and drop them when they pop if needed. Genbu can dispel everything so not having to deal with them is preferable.

I'd recommend having Scherzo and/or Earthen armor. Kirin's heat breaths are capable of 1 shotting a DD and a Geotic Breath on transform can kill people before they position if unlucky.

If you have an Idris Geo tail tanking is an option with Bolstered Wilt.

Darksparksnot point is valid though. Kirin is an easy melee zerg compared to the Reisinjima T4s who will put up far more resistance.
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 Asura.Avallon
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By Asura.Avallon 2017-08-11 17:19:50  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Adds go down pretty quick? Also, who usually looks out and pulls them to the DD?

I'm a little late to this thread but, my 2 gils:

From our experiences, you don't mess with the adds. That's how we all started when Escha Sky came out but now days if Kouryu isn't dead within a very short time frame, your run is over anyway. Stopping to take on the adds only increases your chance of failure. This of course is being stated with the knowledge that your group is ready for this but not decked out for this. It would stand to reason your best bet then would be to zerg Kirin/Kouryu as fast as humanly possible.

Each participant needs to understand the fight from start to finish. They need to know to use Mirrors/Steadfast Tonics at 50%, where to stand/where not to stand, temps are available for a reason, and so on.

If you're SMN burning it great! If you're melee burning it, great, but make sure your guys are ready for maximum damage output. This means your Idris GEO is fast and on point and other support buffs are ALREADY ON at the time Kouryu spawns.

A third option (I didn't read everyone's post above so this might have already been covered) is to mage burn it using SCH's and BLM's. You can also technically use SCH and SMN's to burst as well. Just keep in mind the same gear/skill expectations are a must.
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 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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user: bluecop81
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-08-11 17:21:31  
OK let me be more specific.

Kill the adds on 1st form only!

If adds pop on 2nd Form, Forget them, as said above No time to waste on those.
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