Blade: Chi Damage Formula

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Blade: Chi Damage Formula
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By Bahadir 2016-09-27 18:56:32  
I was intrigued by Verdas numbers with Blade: Chi so I ran some tests in order to understand how the dmg is calculated and I have to admit that I am at a loss cause I cannt figure it out. Ill post my test results and maybe one of you guys has an idea.

Here are my base assumptions:
- Blade:Chi has Mods 30% for Int and Str.
- fTP at 3000TP is 1.0 (all WS done during my tests were performed at 3k TP)
- pDif was capped all the time (used trust Dia III + Light Shot to ensure caped pDif)
- fStr was caped at 8 (Rank 0 weapon)

All tests were done with kunai as main hand weapon and other slots were empty (unless stated otherwise). 99 Nin with varing subs depending on situation. Sub and exact Str/Int/MAB stats are given below for the different tests. Unfortunately, I already have some gifts so I have 18 base MAB that I cannot remove.

Things I tested:
Hypothesis
H1) The first hit follows the phys WS formular
H2) MAB affects the 2nd hit
H3) The player level affects the dmg (as with other magical WS)
H4) There is a dStat term for the dmg of the 2nd hit
H5) The dmg of the first hit influences the dmg of the 2nd.

Short answeres:
Yes, yes, no, no, yes.

Long explanation
I am aware that the tests were quit limited. However, while prob not statistically sufficient they are enough to make some strong guesses about H1-H5)
About H1) All the 1-st Hit numbers exactly match the known phys WS dmg formula: Dmg = (D+WSC+fSTR)*fTP+pDif so first hit seems a normal physical hit.
H2) Test 4 shows that MAB has an impact on (only) the 2nd hit.
H3) Test 1 and 2 show that a reduction of the lvl did not(!) change the dmg, unlike for magical WS.
H4) Tests 5 and 6 show same dmg despite different targets with different stats. So either no dStat term or its capped quickly, which would be strange as dStat terms for magical WSs are usually uncapped, right?
H5) By using SA I increased the pDif of the first and only the first hit. So the dmg in Test 5 increased. However, the final dmg increased more than the dmg of the first hit did. Thus, the 2nd hit depends on the dmg of the 1st hit.

Having said all this...I cannot come up with a formula that explains all numbers. Any1 has an idea?
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-09-27 19:04:07  
I would suggest looking up older tests on Blade: To, Flaming Arrow, and/or Tachi: Jinpu, as half of that was already known to be the case.
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By Verda 2016-09-27 19:14:27  
I think this is great work and great information thank you for doing it :)
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By Bahadir 2016-09-27 19:32:31  
Siren.Kyte said: »
I would suggest looking up older tests on Blade: To, Flaming Arrow, and/or Tachi: Jinpu, as half of that was already known to be the case.
Thx for the link. Ill check it. I know a lot of it was known but I couldn't find a reference to prove any of it. Now we have proof ^^
Ill look into the old tests and see what I can figure out.
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By Bahadir 2016-09-27 19:37:11  
Ah its byrths hybrid ws dmg forumla. I saw this one before but I cannot make it work.for chi. Also this assumes only one hit, no? Chi has two and my numbers suggest that the 2nd hit is based on the dmg of the first. But if I missed something plz let me know.
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By Fenrir.Tarowyn 2016-09-27 19:46:19  
It's possible that maybe the magic dmg get's applied last so if it dies from the first hit it won't get the additional magic dmg.

You can maybe try wsing on earth elementals to see if you can get what looks like 2 physical hits worth of dmg.
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By Bahadir 2016-09-28 01:34:04  
Fenrir.Tarowyn said: »
It's possible that maybe the magic dmg get's applied last so if it dies from the first hit it won't get the additional magic dmg.

You can maybe try wsing on earth elementals to see if you can get what looks like 2 physical hits worth of dmg.
Good idea but I could never kill a mob with roughly double the first hits dmg and before the big chunk of magical dmg was applied.
Can any1 come up with a magical immune monster or slashing immune monster that would be easy to try it out with?
Tried Phil today but lets face it...he s**** -_- then tried warder of temprance but he wouldnt have slashing mode up for long enough. Only once and out if reflex I used Shun and not Chi...
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-28 01:39:33  
There are monsters for the Shantotto miniexpansion that take damage only from a specific source.
If you go to the monsters that take only magic damage in theory the slashing/physical part should do zero and you might be able to find out more info about the magic damage part of Blade: Chi


Edit:
Fired Urn in Ro'maeve only takes Slashing damage (useful to test stuff without the magical part)

Lode Golem only takes magic damage.

They have level 75 low hp, so you might want to use a very very low level Katana to make sure you don't overkill them with the first hit.
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By Fenrir.Tarowyn 2016-09-28 01:58:27  
Bahadir said: »
Fenrir.Tarowyn said: »
It's possible that maybe the magic dmg get's applied last so if it dies from the first hit it won't get the additional magic dmg.

You can maybe try wsing on earth elementals to see if you can get what looks like 2 physical hits worth of dmg.
Good idea but I could never kill a mob with roughly double the first hits dmg and before the big chunk of magical dmg was applied.
Can any1 come up with a magical immune monster or slashing immune monster that would be easy to try it out with?
Tried Phil today but lets face it...he s**** -_- then tried warder of temprance but he wouldnt have slashing mode up for long enough. Only once and out if reflex I used Shun and not Chi...

Well, the point of doing it on earth elementals is there should be no magic dmg to speak of due to resistances. Then you could see how many physical hits worth of dmg you're actually getting.

I also vaguely recall from a conversation a long time ago that the first hit of chi is actually less than 1 http://ftp. I'd have to go look it up if you're interested.
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By Bahadir 2016-09-28 09:47:42  
Asura.Sechs said: »
Fired Urn in Ro'maeve only takes Slashing damage (useful to test stuff without the magical part)

Lode Golem only takes magic damage.

They have level 75 low hp, so you might want to use a very very low level Katana to make sure you don't overkill them with the first hit.
Thx Ill try that! I used a kunai for all my tests so far to make sure of exctly that. And I plan to keep using it for now. Ill see later how/if weapon dmg affects the magical hit.

Fenrir.Tarowyn said: »
I also vaguely recall from a conversation a long time ago that the first hit of chi is actually less than 1 http://ftp. I'd have to go look it up if you're interested.
Hmm....from my data above it seems pretty solid that the first hit at 3k TP has 1 http://fTP. All single hit data I produced fit perfectly in the Phys WSDmg formula if you use 1 http://fTP.

EDIT: y does he automatically replace f T P with this link?...
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By Sabishii 2016-09-28 11:07:33  
Bahadir said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
Fired Urn in Ro'maeve only takes Slashing damage (useful to test stuff without the magical part)

Lode Golem only takes magic damage.

They have level 75 low hp, so you might want to use a very very low level Katana to make sure you don't overkill them with the first hit.
Thx Ill try that! I used a kunai for all my tests so far to make sure of exctly that. And I plan to keep using it for now. Ill see later how/if weapon dmg affects the magical hit.

Fenrir.Tarowyn said: »
I also vaguely recall from a conversation a long time ago that the first hit of chi is actually less than 1 http://ftp. I'd have to go look it up if you're interested.
Hmm....from my data above it seems pretty solid that the first hit at 3k TP has 1 http://fTP. All single hit data I produced fit perfectly in the Phys WSDmg formula if you use 1 http://fTP.

EDIT: y does he automatically replace f T P with this link?...


I don't know what device you're posting from, but I'd say Auto Correct.
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By Bahadir 2016-09-28 11:24:25  
Posted from browser on a normal PC so no I idea y it wouldnt work and "auto-correct"... anyways. More important things :D

Got some interesting results from the golem and pot NMs.

First Magic immunity:
Both hit dmg:
355, 317, 344, 352
First hit only dmg:
193, 169

Att was not capped so cannot say anything exactly but TP return was from 2 hits on the first! So there are two(!) physical hits and magic dmg is added later.

Slashing immunity:
As expected 0 dmg with Kunai. That means magic base dmg depends only on phys dmg and not on any further dStat or WSC or whatever. The only thing that plays in here is MDmg+. So I tested with Ochu and got
142, 142, 142, ...
Ochu has 105 mDmg and 14MAB so had a total of 14+18=32 MAB.
Adding Int and/or Str did not increase dmg!
But I still dont get it cause
105*x = 142 (assuming no MDB or MDT+/-) yields x ~1.35 and not the expected 1.32...
So either this particular NM has MDT+ or negative MDB or we r still missing something here.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2016-09-28 11:31:29  
Do you have magic attack bonus gifts? I'm guessing that's the 18 term, but if you're job master it's 28 not 18. I would recommend doing some testing with ninjutsu or something to establish any MDB/MDT terms first.
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By Bahadir 2016-09-28 12:05:15  
Yep the +18 is gifts (not master yet;;). Didnt have much time this morning for the tests but Ill try the Ninjutsu to check for MDB/MDT later.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2016-09-28 12:08:11  
Either way, I think it's likely 2 hits where the first is physical only and the second is a hybrid hit (physical + magical). What I'm curious about is how multi attacks factor into this. Will they be hybrid hits or regular hits? I'm guessing they are just physical.
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-28 12:11:28  
Bahadir said: »
Thx Ill try that! I used a kunai for all my tests so far to make sure of exctly that. And I plan to keep using it for now. Ill see later how/if weapon dmg affects the magical hit.
Just a note: those monsters might bring up inconclusive results.
They are coded in a very "special" way, it might go beyond just making them immune to everything but a specific source of damage =/

Hope it's not the case, but it's something to consider.
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-09-28 12:14:57  
Bahadir said: »
Posted from browser on a normal PC so no I idea y it wouldnt work and "auto-correct"... anyways. More important things :D

Got some interesting results from the golem and pot NMs.

First Magic immunity:
Both hit dmg:
355, 317, 344, 352
First hit only dmg:
193, 169

Att was not capped so cannot say anything exactly but TP return was from 2 hits on the first! So there are two(!) physical hits and magic dmg is added later.

Slashing immunity:
As expected 0 dmg with Kunai. That means magic base dmg depends only on phys dmg and not on any further dStat or WSC or whatever. The only thing that plays in here is MDmg+. So I tested with Ochu and got
142, 142, 142, ...
Ochu has 105 mDmg and 14MAB so had a total of 14+18=32 MAB.
Adding Int and/or Str did not increase dmg!
But I still dont get it cause
105*x = 142 (assuming no MDB or MDT+/-) yields x ~1.35 and not the expected 1.32...
So either this particular NM has MDT+ or negative MDB or we r still missing something here.
Interesting results.

Magic damage could be something somehow related to physical damage, and then multiplied in someway for magicboosting stats. That would explain the 0 because anything multiplied for zero of course is still zero. Then Magic damage appearently gets added at the end of that?

Like snaps I'm curious myself how multiattack gets calculated and if it can proc on all hits.
I wonder... is it a matter of 1physhit + 1hybridhit or 2x physhit + 1magichit?
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By Bahadir 2016-09-28 13:07:40  
Asura.Sechs said: »
Magic damage could be something somehow related to physical damage, and then multiplied in someway for magicboosting stats. That would explain the 0 because anything multiplied for zero of course is still zero. Then Magic damage appearently gets added at the end of that?

I agree. My current assumption is that it is two hits and the 2nd hit has an magic dmg effect added like an Enspell (with different dmg formula though). It does not give extra TP but it triggers together with the physical hit. Im not sure actually if enspells still trigger if the phys hit kills the monster already... In any case, that would explain the current behaviour.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Like snaps I'm curious myself how multiattack gets calculated and if it can proc on all hits.
I wonder... is it a matter of 1physhit + 1hybridhit or 2x physhit + 1magichit?
Interesting question....as my Sneak Attack experiemnt suggests the magical dmg depends on at least both physical hits. I assume additional hits are just physical hits but the interesting question would be whether they subsequently contribute to the base dmg of the magical dmg...

EDIT: Now that I think about it... it would make sense if they do. That would explain Verda's dmg spikes. If a triple attack triggers on the first hit and the combined dmg is used as base dmg for the magical hit that would explain the spikes.
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By Bahadir 2016-09-29 13:27:53  
Ok need some help...I tried to go back and figure out with Ninjutsu if the NM has MDT or MDB. So I started in Qufim on Clippers again to calibrate my formula and make sure its precise.

Heres what I used
Dmg = floor(floor((V+dInt+mDmg)*MAB/MDB)*NinjutsuBonus)

with the following values:
V = 69 (for Ni spells)
dInt = 102 (my Int)-X (to find out)
MAB = 1.18 (gifts)
MDB = 1 (assume they dont have MDB)
NinBonus = 2.12 (446 Skill so caped)
mDmg = 20 (JPs have 10 of them)

The real dmg I get is
427 and 444 with Int+7.
I cannot find an Int/MDB combination that gives me exactly that numbers. What am I missing here?

EDIT: 444 dmg was Int+7!! not +9....just 109 in total.
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By Verda 2016-09-29 14:18:11  
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=247&mid=1288878905174087582
This lists Ni damage as 78, might try using that instead of 69.

444 - 427 = 17

Working backwards would make it not considering flooring:
444 / 2.12 / 1.18 = 177.486
427 / 2.12 / 1.18 = 170.69

We'd want 9 damage to be the difference there but outside getting relatively close numbers I don't think the working backwards will give exact things since flooring.

There is actually no whole number that would even give 444.xxx if you multiply by 2.12:
209 x 2.12 = 443.08 floored is 443
210 x 2.12 = 445.2 floored is 445

So no way to get 444 if the multiplier is 2.12 and both steps are floored so either both steps aren't floored or 2.12 is wrong.

Byrth's testing assumed the rabbit has 6 int, but said sometimes the damage is off by one for some reason (could assume weird binary math perhaps, but maybe not):
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103919-Magic?p=4703562&viewfull=1#post4703562

While this does show we have more to learn about ninjutsu the method I've heard is common for testing MDB is using Bio. So maybe go that route :D
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By Bahadir 2016-09-29 15:05:33  
Thx for the reply!
How does the Bio thingy work? Whas special about bio over other spells for that ?
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By Verda 2016-09-29 16:01:43  
I can't find the post now D: so hoping I don't remember wrong. But it's something like Bio II has 50ish base magic damage and is totally unaffected by magic damage stat so it just makes it easier to calculate mdb. A way to check would be use it on low level mobs before they ever get magic defense bonus. Then test it vs a whm mob with both shell up or not (and whm mobs get mdb) to see if you can use it to distinguish between mdb and mdt (though the only things that might do that are some breath moves). It was some post by byrth and I can't find it after looking for 15 minutes so...
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By Bahadir 2016-09-29 16:06:34  
Ok Ill give it a try Thx!
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By Bahadir 2016-09-29 21:01:51  
That Ninjutsu dmg is so weird... the bio II thing worked nicely btw. its 50 base dmg and Int has no effect, only MAB. So went to Qufim Clippers again (Im surprised they are not extinct yet...) and tested Ni spells with 50 MAB to make math easier. Bio II did exactly 75 dmg so no MDB. Checked further with elemental nukesa and Clipper Int is 20.

My starting Int was 106 and increased in +1 steps till 119.
Here are the dmg numbers:
556, 559, 562, 565, 568, 571, 574, 577, 580, 585 (yes...checked 5 times or so. its really 585), 588, 591, 594, 597, 600, 603, 606, 610, 613, 616

Maybe there are some tiers in the V values for ninjutsu after all?
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By Verda 2016-09-30 15:27:20  
It would seem there's definitely something going on as as every single one after is increased. If you could identify the INT of the target then we could calculate dINT and then if it was say 50 or 100, then we'd have pretty strong suspicion that is the case. Still it's not anything nearly as huge as tiers for elemental magic but it'd help solve discrepancies.

I want to use ifrit's favor, fighter's roll, and stack up on multi-hit in my chi set to see if i can make the damage spikes consistent based on things given here. I will also try doing a sneak attack with it.

I also was messing around with To and even tho it's not hybrid I got this only once using an entirely MAB set.


I can't explain it since most are around 12k and some are like 7k.

This was my WS set:
Code
		ammo="Seething Bomblet",
		head=herchelm_mab,
		neck="Sanctity Necklace",
		body=samnuha,
		hands=leyline,
		legs=herctrou_mab,
		ear1="Friomisi Earring",
		ear2=moonshade,
		ring1="Weatherspoon Ring",
		ring2="Fenrir Ring",
		waist="Eschan stone",
		feet=hercboots_mab,
		back="Toro Cape",


I've used To before and never got that. Maybe it's something with chapuli stances I have no clue, they do take 0 damage after some tp moves but this wasn't the case here and To isn't a hybrid WS that I know of. I was just me and a friend who is brd and whm not even trusts. Ironically, Blade: Yu I've also messed around with and despite seeming a better WS and being higher level I can never get it to perform at all above like 5.5k.

Edit: I'm noticing that To, Ko and Chi all list Elemental Attack however Yu, Trueflight, and Wildfire all say Elemental Damage. So I think To and Ko are also hybrid weaponskills where as Yu is not, but could be wrong. I also think getting these kinds of numbers without all the mage buffs active at the same time as physical buffs active with vorseals would be hard to achieve without either proper support or in Abyssea.
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2016-09-30 19:00:23  
Verda said: »
To isn't a hybrid WS that I know of. Ironically, Blade: Yu I've also messed around with and despite seeming a better WS and being higher level I can never get it to perform at all above like 5.5k.

Edit: I'm noticing that To, Ko and Chi all list Elemental Attack however Yu, Trueflight, and Wildfire all say Elemental Damage.

Back when I used to bring my NIN to Abyssea and had to build amber light, kill-shotting with Blades: Teki, To, and Chi would always yield ruby light despite the description saying it deals water/ice/earth elemental damage, whereas Blade: Yu would always produce amber light. So in the case of hybrid weapon skills, their damage type is probably classified as physical for Abyssea lights.
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By Verda 2016-09-30 23:28:59  
After the Abyssea remarks decided to do some digging, some more stuff on these WS:
JP Wiki on Katana WS

In the remarks for the summary they clearly say for Teki, To and Chi it is an additional effect and Yu and Ei are elemental attribute damage only.

Going to their individual pages:
Blade: Teki
Blade: To
Blade: Chi

We can see them talk about how the WS attribute is physical and the additional damage is elemental. Also the translator lists crawlers as potatoes, and the JP seem to have some slang for weaponskill toss (I guess where you'd hand off a WS to another player for a skillchain, their page says they get the term from volleyball? idk). In any case, back on topic, these are definitely what we call hybrid WS so I updated the wiki in that regard.

Also I believe of all the Katana's the Aeonic Katana will be best suited for these types of WS due to its extremely high base damage and magic damage attributes, both of which power these WS, but then again Ochu wouldn't be bad either nor would any hit multi hit katana or even a malevolence. My hypothesis is multi hit > base damage + magic damage > attack/mab will be what tends to benefit these the most. Fighter's Roll from Qultalda seems to help a lot. fTP base is .5 so just dualwielding would make that 1.5, and every double attack proc would add 1 and triple attack add 2 to fTP so a triple attack proc in itself would give you about a 2.3x increase and two TA procs would give you a 5.67x increase. This is calc'd at 1k tp, so it'd be less pronounced for higher TP.

If my To does 8k without multi hit procs at around 1.7 fTP if you include the dw, then a double hit (2.7 fTP) should do VERY roughly 12.7k, a triple proc (3.7 fTP) would give 17.4k, two triples and a double (4.7 fTP) should give 22.1k and two triples (5.7 fTP) should give 26.8k. These ranges match up very closely to what I see in game. That said, I should test Mikage later with it as your multihit goes through the roof then.

One significant thing I've changed doing this is now I will do To -> Teki -> Shun -> Shun for Radiance rather than Ten -> Kamu -> Shun -> Shun on mobs I know Teki and To work on. Sometimes just the skillchain of To -> Teki -> Shun kills ascended mobs and I don't even get off a second shun or radiance.
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-09-30 23:48:19  
Blade: To is hybrid, yes. People used to brew with SA+Blade: To for that reason.
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By Verda 2016-09-30 23:56:55  
Teki is too, both were listed in the wiki as magical rather than hybrid. Also only the wiki seems to list them as elemental attack the in game text says elemental damage.
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By Bahadir 2016-10-01 09:07:08  
Edited my former post to add more Int+->dmg values and checked as well: Clipper Int is 20. Checked on many of them around the tower and seems like if there are different lvls they all have Int 20.

Checked as well the only magic dmg Doll NM with Bio II and it shows now MDB or MDT. Just to yield remaining info about my post even before that.
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