119 III Weapons

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119 III weapons
 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-03-19 04:19:14  
Ukon is better in terms of dps than rag, but it's not because of ukkos fury.. It's because it increases tp damage by 100% for a job/weapon which is pretty much 50:50 tp:ws damage.

Reso is the better ws, however you can easily make it whiff by not using ele belt/gorget/moonshade and lacking attack
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-19 05:34:04  
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Ukon is better in terms of dps than rag, but it's not because of ukkos fury.. It's because it increases tp damage by 100% for a job/weapon which is pretty much 50:50 tp:ws damage.

That is extremely situational. You would need to start off with 3000TP to activate AM3 and not need to put it up again before the fight was over with. And even then it's buff dependent because high buffed Reso absolutely destroys everything else. I actually used appropriate WS and TP sets when doing the comparison and it really came down to the specific fight and buff scenario. For VD avatars where you lose all buffs upon entry it's no contest, Reso spam all the way. For Escha T1's it's also rag due to how fast the fights are over with. T2's it depends, Zi'Tah and Ru'Ann is Rag but Reisenjima has them lasting long enough. Of course by then Acc really starts to become important and seeing as people think 1050 is "good" for a base acc, well don't think they'll be doing those on melee.

Quote:
Reso is the better ws, however you can easily make it whiff by not using ele belt/gorget/moonshade and lacking attack

This makes absolutely zero sense....

WS gorget / belt is just +10 WS acc each. And if your not using Fotia for appropriate WS's then just stop playing this game and go away. Reso beats those WS's even at low attack, the penalty is only -15% and WAR, like DRK, happens to be a high attack job with buffs that raise not only it's attack but also give +700 Tp Bonus, which incidentally helps Reso and Upheaval out FAR more then it does Ukko's.

Anyhow these are the same Arguments made back at 99 when it was Rag vs Ukon during Legion / Voidwatch era. Thankfully this time around the differences aren't nearly as big and it's all very situational. If anyone thinks Warrior is about using a single weapon type, then just drop your ***and go play Samurai, Monk, Dragoon or Dark Knight.
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By FaeQueenCory 2016-03-19 05:57:12  
Why would anyone NOT use elemental belts on a ƒTP transferring WS?
Why would you NOT try and stack attack on an attack penalty WS?
Obviously if you're not gonna even try, then of course Resolution will fall lower than Ukko's Fury due to Crit based WSs, even outside of Abyssea, generally showing larger numbers. (Hexastrike and Chant du Cygne being the first to my mind... Though they also ƒTP transfer, so not the best examples... But they make the point well enough.)

In terms of REAMs that WAR can use: GS will tend to be better damage than GA (and both better than Axe).

For GS:
Relic: Look at all this Acc, 60 more than other REAM options, and ~100 more than other 119s. Not to mention the natural ODD, and large crit rate boost. Highest base damage GS available, iirc.
Empyrean: lolno. Torcleaver is fine for SC... That's about it. (And it's unlockable now so Caladbolg is even more garbage; cause what's better than Torcleaver on Caladbolg? Torcleaver on Ragnarok.)

For GA:
Relic: Again, look at all this Accuracy! The AM is utilitarian, not exactly game changing... But it's not like it's not useful or good. Natural ODD. And the WS is actually pretty good; +40% dmg and STR based makes it compare to Resolution. Not necessarily beat, but compare enough to be competitive.
Empyrean: It's... Not very good. It's a 121 weapon with a decent enough WS tied to it. The issue is, like all Empys, lower base damage and Acc compared to Relics... And the fact that everyone can use their WS. (This is what makes offhand Empys the best things ever. Period.) But mainhand, they fall behind. Sure they skew damage with AM up to be more white damage based... But the majority of your damage will still come from WS and SC. (Proof is simply to look at a RNG. They're the kings of white damage, but still it's the spike damage that maintains their DPS.)
It's still a 121 weapon and will be better than other 119s, but it just can't compare to the higher base damage and higher Acc and better AMs that other REAM options give.
Aeonic: It's got the highest base damage. ... >_> That's it's main pull. The Store TP frees you up a bit... And the TP Bonus can actually make it deal more damage with Ukko's Fury than Ukkon can... Potentially. (% based abilities, eg: crit) But, while it's better than the Empy... It still loses to Relics. Especially when you're looking to need ~1400acc. The AM is ok, but it's not an "off color" Aeonic so you're still tied to JUST "double" Light.
Oh. And it frees up your merits? So... That's something.
Mythic: nothing compares to it. It's hands down the best. Period. Best AM, truly pimping out damage across the board (eg both spike and white) with OA2/3; which unlike Empy ODT, works on WS. It turns the better SC chains that GA offers over GS into something truly beastly. All in all, the only things worse compared to REA options is less Acc and/or less base damage. Which Mythic AM3 more than makes up for.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-19 06:59:28  
Warriors off-builds involving Sword and Axe are very situational. For Axe it's all about Cloud Splitting closing a SC with Malaise for mages to burst off of. That's when it shines. Savage spam used to be godly but with new REMA's it's outclassed, still I keep it around for the odd times I need to use it in a controlled fight as it's still our absolute highest burst WS option. Been playing around with WAR/THF charging TP via Tact roll and SA Savaging, it's pretty ridiculous the numbers you can get from it. Bonus points for anything figuring out which fight this is super-useful in.

A note about Warcry and Bloodrage. These abilities dramatically change how our WS's perform and can not be stacked. Warcry gives a +11% attack bonus and +700 TP Bonus to you and everyone in the party for 60s. Blood Rage gives +40% crit rate to you and everyone. BR makes Ukko's a decent WS option and turbo charges CDC from any good BLU's in the party. Warcry does silly things to Resolution, Upheaval and any other TP focused WS, also does the same to everyone in the party. In a longer fight both will be used but in super short fights you can bias yourself without knowing it.
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-03-19 08:34:57  
Quote:
Ukon is better in terms of dps than rag, but it's not because of ukkos fury.. It's because it increases tp damage by 100% for a job/weapon which is pretty much 50:50 tp:ws damage.
Source? I've never seen a 50:50 split on any job or even close to it post SoA.

Also it's pretty simple, Reso with higher attack ceilings is no longer punished for having a large attack penalty. Obviously with no attack buffs you won't see strength from the WS, and with things like Idris or even just well used buffs you will.
 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-03-20 13:25:32  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Ukon is better in terms of dps than rag, but it's not because of ukkos fury.. It's because it increases tp damage by 100% for a job/weapon which is pretty much 50:50 tp:ws damage.

That is extremely situational. You would need to start off with 3000TP to activate AM3 and not need to put it up again before the fight was over with. And even then it's buff dependent because high buffed Reso absolutely destroys everything else. I actually used appropriate WS and TP sets when doing the comparison and it really came down to the specific fight and buff scenario. For VD avatars where you lose all buffs upon entry it's no contest, Reso spam all the way. For Escha T1's it's also rag due to how fast the fights are over with. T2's it depends, Zi'Tah and Ru'Ann is Rag but Reisenjima has them lasting long enough. Of course by then Acc really starts to become important and seeing as people think 1050 is "good" for a base acc, well don't think they'll be doing those on melee.

Quote:
Reso is the better ws, however you can easily make it whiff by not using ele belt/gorget/moonshade and lacking attack

This makes absolutely zero sense....

WS gorget / belt is just +10 WS acc each. And if your not using Fotia for appropriate WS's then just stop playing this game and go away. Reso beats those WS's even at low attack, the penalty is only -15% and WAR, like DRK, happens to be a high attack job with buffs that raise not only it's attack but also give +700 Tp Bonus, which incidentally helps Reso and Upheaval out FAR more then it does Ukko's.

Anyhow these are the same Arguments made back at 99 when it was Rag vs Ukon during Legion / Voidwatch era. Thankfully this time around the differences aren't nearly as big and it's all very situational. If anyone thinks Warrior is about using a single weapon type, then just drop your ***and go play Samurai, Monk, Dragoon or Dark Knight.

No - Ele gorgets (which I say out of habit) have the same effect as fotia, 0.1 ftp each which is of course copied to all hits on reso.. anyway what I was getting at is if someone is reporting ukkos as a superior ws to reso then there's a good chance they are doing it wrong.

Quote:
Source? I've never seen a 50:50 split on any job or even close to it post SoA.

This is based on a comparison I ran using the spreadsheets on all of the WAR 269 weapons (data a few pages back). As Saevel pointed out though, that's based on AM3. The beauty of rag is that its a powerhouse at all times. Ukon has almost nothing going for it without AM up, and even with AM3 its coming out only a little ahead of rag (and will of course change depending on situation, my testing was on a range of ilvls and averaged out). Ukon's damage is roughly 50:50 tp:ws assuming a 5 hit build (partly because of GA ws are in a bad way..)
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By Blazed1979 2016-03-20 13:55:19  
what rings/earrings best for Reso?
The ws dmg% augments and items only apply to first hit?

Been playing around with augmented gear.
Augments:
Ody: WS DMG +4%, Accuracy +27 Atk+24
Thats an Ishvara earring not brutal.


I have another Odyssean head with 15 str and 30 accuracy. and was wondering if that beats the flat ws dmg+4%.
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-03-20 14:22:58  
Quote:
This is based on a comparison I ran using the spreadsheets on all of the WAR 269 weapons (data a few pages back). As Saevel pointed out though, that's based on AM3. The beauty of rag is that its a powerhouse at all times. Ukon has almost nothing going for it without AM up, and even with AM3 its coming out only a little ahead of rag (and will of course change depending on situation, my testing was on a range of ilvls and averaged out). Ukon's damage is roughly 50:50 tp:ws assuming a 5 hit build (partly because of GA ws are in a bad way..)


It would be more accurate to say War is 50:50 only using a low damage WS, a weapon purely made for AA, and not factoring in SCing.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-03-20 15:33:48  
Blazed1979 said: »
what rings/earrings best for Reso?
The ws dmg% augments and items only apply to first hit?

Been playing around with augmented gear.
Augments:
Ody: WS DMG +4%, Accuracy +27 Atk+24
Thats an Ishvara earring not brutal.


I have another Odyssean head with 15 str and 30 accuracy. and was wondering if that beats the flat ws dmg+4%.

Yeah WSD will only effect first hit. For Reso all hits carry equal weight, so use a second str ring, drop the ishvara for brutal and use your str aug odyseean head. Stack that WSD+ for scourge though! I just got WSD+8 from the augment campaign, would love to see a full set on a 1hit ws
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-20 17:47:05  
WTF is up with people thinking +WSD effects all hits on a WS? It's only useful on single hit high fTP WS's, not on multi-hit ones.

Argosy Celata +1 has the following
STR +42
DEX +42
Atk +55 (86 with STR included)
Acc +30 (61 with DEX included)
Store TP +7
DA +2 (Set effect)

Odyssean loses badly to it, even Valorous loses to it on Resolution.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-20 17:49:50  
Asura.Failaras said: »
Quote:
This is based on a comparison I ran using the spreadsheets on all of the WAR 269 weapons (data a few pages back). As Saevel pointed out though, that's based on AM3. The beauty of rag is that its a powerhouse at all times. Ukon has almost nothing going for it without AM up, and even with AM3 its coming out only a little ahead of rag (and will of course change depending on situation, my testing was on a range of ilvls and averaged out). Ukon's damage is roughly 50:50 tp:ws assuming a 5 hit build (partly because of GA ws are in a bad way..)


It would be more accurate to say War is 50:50 only using a low damage WS, a weapon purely made for AA, and not factoring in SCing.

The other issue is that he's giving Ukko's a free 3000TP to start. Assuming Rag has 3000TP at start you wouldn't use it to activate AM3, instead you'd use Sekka and do 1000TP Scourge then a 2450TP Resolution (200TP back from Scourage and another 250 from moonshade) for light. Rag reso shoots ahead and Ukon now has to catch up, which it won't unless the fight's really long.
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By Blazed1979 2016-03-21 10:07:55  
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
what rings/earrings best for Reso?
The ws dmg% augments and items only apply to first hit?

Been playing around with augmented gear.
Augments:
Ody: WS DMG +4%, Accuracy +27 Atk+24
Thats an Ishvara earring not brutal.


I have another Odyssean head with 15 str and 30 accuracy. and was wondering if that beats the flat ws dmg+4%.

Yeah WSD will only effect first hit. For Reso all hits carry equal weight, so use a second str ring, drop the ishvara for brutal and use your str aug odyseean head. Stack that WSD+ for scourge though! I just got WSD+8 from the augment campaign, would love to see a full set on a 1hit ws

Thanks for the response. At what point does STR > TA/QA? These technique augments are hard to gauge.. I just got QA+3 on Odyssen feet with 1 M.acc and 10 MAB...
I think SE created dark matter augments just to keep the forum speculation going.
where's that spreadsheet?
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-03-21 10:33:38  
Blazed1979 said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
what rings/earrings best for Reso?
The ws dmg% augments and items only apply to first hit?

Been playing around with augmented gear.
Augments:
Ody: WS DMG +4%, Accuracy +27 Atk+24
Thats an Ishvara earring not brutal.


I have another Odyssean head with 15 str and 30 accuracy. and was wondering if that beats the flat ws dmg+4%.

Yeah WSD will only effect first hit. For Reso all hits carry equal weight, so use a second str ring, drop the ishvara for brutal and use your str aug odyseean head. Stack that WSD+ for scourge though! I just got WSD+8 from the augment campaign, would love to see a full set on a 1hit ws

Thanks for the response. At what point does STR > TA/QA? These technique augments are hard to gauge.. I just got QA+3 on Odyssen feet with 1 M.acc and 10 MAB...
I think SE created dark matter augments just to keep the forum speculation going.
where's that spreadsheet?

Lol yeah these augs are pretty crazy. I'm finding myself with 3/4 pieces of the same gear with different augs.. Bring on wardrobe 2!

Well, multistrikes proc on reso is beautiful as the extra hits add ftp for each hit. However, the strike cap for any ws is 8. With reso already at 5 and war double attack rate, you're already gonna be reliably double attacking ~2 of those 5 hits to reach 7 hits per ws. For that reason stacking STR and attack is pretty much the way to go (pretty much as acc requirements change and you will always want moonshade/gorget/belt on), hence why argosy(+1) is so good for reso.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-21 18:30:59  
Shiva.Flowen said: »
With reso already at 5 and war double attack rate, you're already gonna be reliably double attacking ~2 of those 5 hits to reach 7 hits per ws.

That's not how multi-attack on WS works....

When you WS it does multiple checks as follows
QA, if yes then +3 and no more
TA, if yes then +2 and no more
DA, if yes then +1
DA again if two or more hits, if yes then +1 and no more
AM3 / Jailer OaT checks,

You only get two DA checks not one for each hit. WAR's naturally high DA rate devalues Conq's AM3 effect but it's still a positive increase in DPS, especially on WS's where we tend to wear less multi-attack.

As for augments, if the item doesn't have an additional 25~30+ accuracy then regardless of what else is present it's trash. The sole exception is +WSD and even then you still need accuracy. It's useless to TP in 1100 base accuracy and then Weapon Skill is 1000. Level 135 NM's tend to require about 1400 accuracy, and that's T2's in Reisenjima. This is why 1100 is the base accuracy you need, after stacking sushi and vorseals you can be capped with just one geo buff and use the other for frailty.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2016-03-22 02:15:04  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
With reso already at 5 and war double attack rate, you're already gonna be reliably double attacking ~2 of those 5 hits to reach 7 hits per ws.

That's not how multi-attack on WS works....

When you WS it does multiple checks as follows
QA, if yes then +3 and no more
TA, if yes then +2 and no more
DA, if yes then +1
DA again if two or more hits, if yes then +1 and no more
AM3 / Jailer OaT checks,

You only get two DA checks not one for each hit. WAR's naturally high DA rate devalues Conq's AM3 effect but it's still a positive increase in DPS, especially on WS's where we tend to wear less multi-attack.

As for augments, if the item doesn't have an additional 25~30+ accuracy then regardless of what else is present it's trash. The sole exception is +WSD and even then you still need accuracy. It's useless to TP in 1100 base accuracy and then Weapon Skill is 1000. Level 135 NM's tend to require about 1400 accuracy, and that's T2's in Reisenjima. This is why 1100 is the base accuracy you need, after stacking sushi and vorseals you can be capped with just one geo buff and use the other for frailty.

I thought it would perform the check on all 5 hits? (Hence why I arrived at 7...) or is the check just the first 2 hits making an additional 2 less likely?
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-22 03:33:58  
Shiva.Flowen said: »
I thought it would perform the check on all 5 hits? (Hence why I arrived at 7...) or is the check just the first 2 hits making an additional 2 less likely?

Only first hit gets checked for QA / TA or AM3, only first two get checked for DA. Basically you only get 2 DA rolls per WS. This is easy to see under the effects of Brazen Rush where your get 100% DA proc on both rolls. Yeah Savagery Warcry, Mighty Strikes, Brazen Rush, and watch the insane 7-hit crit resolutions fly.

Checking my sets, my base TP set gives me a 59% DA rate, and strangely enough my Resolution set also gives me 59% DA though it use's different pieces. Argosy +1 is truly epic for Resolution. Once I get HQ Emicho hands I'll add another 4% DA to TP set.

Rag Reso WAR is really silly for damage, provided your getting proper support. Without proper support the damage crown really goes to BLU.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-03-22 15:29:22  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Only first hit gets checked for QA / TA or AM3, only first two get checked for DA.
Got a source for your QA/TA claim? One chance for AM3 procs is well established, but this is the first time I've seen that put forward for QA/TA. Seems like an odd distinction, and I haven't found anything to back it up.
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By Blazed1979 2016-03-22 15:56:28  
I remember back in the day on BG forums the DA/OAT/Thrice check hierarchy was discussed extensively. Only thing I recall however was that Job trait DA took priority over OAT/thrice. But this was an ooooold school discussion, using things like Joyeuse and Faith Baghknas for testing.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-22 18:13:54  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Only first hit gets checked for QA / TA or AM3, only first two get checked for DA.
Got a source for your QA/TA claim? One chance for AM3 procs is well established, but this is the first time I've seen that put forward for QA/TA. Seems like an odd distinction, and I haven't found anything to back it up.

That was determined sometime around 2008. Lots of extensive controlled testing with parsers. TA (QA didn't exist) only gets one check, DA gets checked twice and then Jailer weapons, and later mythics, get checked at the end. It's been well established for a very long time AFAIK.
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-03-22 18:14:57  
citation needed
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-03-22 18:37:44  
Asura.Saevel said: »
That was determined sometime around 2008. Lots of extensive controlled testing with parsers. TA (QA didn't exist) only gets one check, DA gets checked twice and then Jailer weapons, and later mythics, get checked at the end. It's been well established for a very long time AFAIK.
This? There's no TA testing there, MaxTeem only tested DA. Given that BGwiki's page on TA links to that test anyway as implied evidence of TA's ability to proc twice on WS, my first inclination is to believe that no such test was ever performed for TA, and certainly not in 2008 when TA was much harder to come by. I'd actually expect such a test to date to late Abyssea era or later, since TA quantities inflated significantly around that time (particularly via atmas).
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-22 18:53:01  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
That was determined sometime around 2008. Lots of extensive controlled testing with parsers. TA (QA didn't exist) only gets one check, DA gets checked twice and then Jailer weapons, and later mythics, get checked at the end. It's been well established for a very long time AFAIK.
This? There's no TA testing there, MaxTeem only tested DA. Given that BGwiki's page on TA links to that test anyway as implied evidence of TA's ability to proc twice on WS, my first inclination is to believe that no such test was ever performed for TA, and certainly not in 2008 when TA was much harder to come by. I'd actually expect such a test to date to late Abyssea era or later, since TA quantities inflated significantly around that time (particularly via atmas).

TA existed on THF back then and was in sufficient quantities that it procing twice on Dancing Edge or Evisceration would of been very noticeable. Just like if every hit on Resolution got a QA, TA or DA proc we would be seeing much higher averages. Anyhow the work was done a long *** time ago and it's commonly accepted now. If you want to dispute that then go out, test it yourself and report back the findings.
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-03-22 18:58:49  
Given that the contrary is what's actually commonly accepted, I'm afraid the burden of evidence falls on you.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-22 19:15:02  
PM'd Bryth to clarify a few things since he's more knowledgeable in this then myself. I remember reading a lot of debate about this amongst the THF's after the WAR DA testing was done. If two TA checks were done then it would be very noticeable on Shark Bites TP return with a THF/DNC and no DA gear in their WS set.

It's entirely possible I'm wrong and TA is checked twice instead of once, but regardless DA is most certainly not checked on every hit as was originally claimed. Doesn't really change WAR equips since we don't get much TA and do get a ***ton of DA.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2016-03-22 20:13:16  
AM3 likely takes priority over other forms of multi-attack and can only proc on the first swing.

QA, TA, and DA are each checked twice (as long as the WS has two hits including the potential offhand).

Other forms of multi-attack (OAT, Zanshin, etc.) cannot proc on WS. I think that Virtue weapons also couldn't proc on WS and know I tested it, but now I can't totally remember. Not relevant anymore anyway.



During Voidwatch-era, I used Windbuffet Belt in my Ukko's set for the very occasional lulzy 8-hit Ukko's.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-03-22 20:19:50  
Asura.Saevel said: »
TA existed on THF back then and was in sufficient quantities that it procing twice on Dancing Edge or Evisceration would of been very noticeable.
DE and Evis are both 5 hits, 6 with DW. You'd have no way to differentiate on those WS due to the 8 hit/round cap. Single hit WS like SB and Mercy were a different story, but TA really wasn't that common at the time - aside from trait and merits (10% total), the only commonly used TA piece for THF at the time was Homam Corazza (supposedly TA+1%), and that's not a WS piece. Formally testing a dual TA proc (2x procs and all hits landing) certainly wasn't impossible at the time, but it would have been pretty tedious.
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