New Ninja (what To Expect?)

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New Ninja (what to expect?)
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By Nemn 2015-04-05 19:35:47  
Hello:

Recently returned player. Quit just after ToAU release. Have come back with a friend and am reading a lot to catch up on how the game has changed. I am still deciding on which job/s I would like to focus on. I see that Ninja has taken on more of a DD role which is really cool. What can I expect from Ninja in terms of current content with friends/solo. Which areas does it shine in? Thanks.
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-04-05 19:45:33  
Nemn said: »
Hello:

Recently returned player. Quit just after ToAU release. Have come back with a friend and am reading a lot to catch up on how the game has changed. I am still deciding on which job/s I would like to focus on. I see that Ninja has taken on more of a DD role which is really cool. What can I expect from Ninja in terms of current content with friends/solo. Which areas does it shine in? Thanks.

It Shines No Where, Cleave attacks from everything make Utsusemi Pointless, and WSD isn't close enough to be a DD really.

Solo Stuff again: Same as always although Utsusemi pointless solo with trusts.
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-04-05 19:48:15  
It actually does shine. Its great in many of the high tier BCNMs. Plus, with capped acc and haste, it is actually one of the better options for melee, since it attacks so fast it can continually self SC
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-04-05 19:53:12  
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
It actually does shine. Its great in many of the high tier BCNMs. Plus, with capped acc and haste, it is actually one of the better options for melee, since it attacks so fast it can continually self SC

or any 5 minute SAM can severely outshine it..........

Which isn't fair because SE loves SAM out the ***, but it's a fact.

That said, a well geared and I mean VERY WELL GEARED Ninja can hold it's own, but it's got nothing on so many jobs, and "Self skillchain" aight so NIN is solo now? Like SAM? Can NIN do a double Light skillchain? If not and you're not the only DPS, NIN aint gunna do "that" well.

On certain things like............................................................................. AA on Normal Mode? it's fine for some.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-04-05 20:47:18  
Sadly Conagh is pretty much right, I was a huge advocate of Ninja prior to the 1 handed update but have since found it to be entirely useless. It's actually kind of funny because that update looked like it was going to buff Ninjas but in reality it pushed Blu and Thf forward so far that Ninja lost its place.

Previously Ninja was good as the DD that could shine in fights where shadows were necessary, jobs like Samurai were inherently bad at this because of reliance on Hasso and loss of Berserk which is huge for Fudo. This meant that on fights like Tenzen, Shadow Lord, and Ark Angels, Ninja was king. However that update buffed Blue Mage and Thief to absurd levels and they have no problem with shadows and subbing Ninja, better SC properties, Thief doesn't rely on a 115 offhand, and are all around better jobs than Nin. The only real special use Ninja has now is the ability to use Migwari but we haven't seen much use for that in current strategies.
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-04-05 21:09:20  
Asura.Failaras said: »
Sadly Conagh is pretty much right, I was a huge advocate of Ninja prior to the 1 handed update but have since found it to be entirely useless. It's actually kind of funny because that update looked like it was going to buff Ninjas but in reality it pushed Blu and Thf forward so far that Ninja lost its place.

Previously Ninja was good as the DD that could shine in fights where shadows were necessary, jobs like Samurai were inherently bad at this because of reliance on Hasso and loss of Berserk which is huge for Fudo. This meant that on fights like Tenzen, Shadow Lord, and Ark Angels, Ninja was king. However that update buffed Blue Mage and Thief to absurd levels and they have no problem with shadows and subbing Ninja, better SC properties, Thief doesn't rely on a 115 offhand, and are all around better jobs than Nin. The only real special use Ninja has now is the ability to use Migwari but we haven't seen much use for that in current strategies.

Aye Miga for one DPS means nothing if the other 2 dps Die anyways, strats cater around All surviving.....

Ninja used to be epic :/
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By Sylph.Nemn 2015-04-05 22:05:33  
Thanks for the replies. A little disheartened but I'll keep my eye on things for the future.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-04-05 22:08:01  
Sylph.Nemn said: »
Thanks for the replies. A little disheartened but I'll keep my eye on things for the future.

The game is more forgiving to different setups now than it was in the past, although the players aren't much more willing to deviate from the optimal setups. If you're lucky, you'll get to play with a group of people who let you play the jobs you love. If you want to play NIN, knock yourself out, you just might find yourself excluded from some content if you rely on PUGs or idiots for group content.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-04-05 22:31:23  
Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Sadly Conagh is pretty much right, I was a huge advocate of Ninja prior to the 1 handed update but have since found it to be entirely useless. It's actually kind of funny because that update looked like it was going to buff Ninjas but in reality it pushed Blu and Thf forward so far that Ninja lost its place.

Previously Ninja was good as the DD that could shine in fights where shadows were necessary, jobs like Samurai were inherently bad at this because of reliance on Hasso and loss of Berserk which is huge for Fudo. This meant that on fights like Tenzen, Shadow Lord, and Ark Angels, Ninja was king. However that update buffed Blue Mage and Thief to absurd levels and they have no problem with shadows and subbing Ninja, better SC properties, Thief doesn't rely on a 115 offhand, and are all around better jobs than Nin. The only real special use Ninja has now is the ability to use Migwari but we haven't seen much use for that in current strategies.

Aye Miga for one DPS means nothing if the other 2 dps Die anyways, strats cater around All surviving.....

Ninja used to be epic :/
I love Migwawari for fights like Tenzen, it has saved my butt on numerous occasions. However the problem is that you can also minimize risk by simply killing the mob significantly faster. Instead of taking a more resilient Ninja to these fights you can take a Thief and make gigantic SA darknesses that chunk the mobs health down to half in 10 seconds. At some point the ability to kill the mob overtakes the ability to outsurvive it.
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By protectorchrono 2015-04-05 22:54:43  
If you have a hard time joining a group if you're on Ninja than I'd suggest making your own group so you don't have to deal with other people's BS on what job you should be. Play the job you love and have fun on it. Even if it's not the desired job right now or isn't shining like it used too, it's still an all around good job. So don't listen to people who say Ninja isn't really worth using anymore or doesn't work well in some situations, they obviously can't come up with other strategies that can work a ninja in the mix.

I've seen some great Ninja's in my day and even these days Ninjas do still have a place in end game events besides stuff like Abyssea. Play the way you want and f&$% all the rest who tell you otherwise.

My 2 cents.
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By Mookies 2015-04-06 00:47:34  
General consencus from the mindless meta makers is that nin is unwanted. It's neither a DD or worth calling a tank in their eyes. So if you plan on doing pugs, level something else (unless you're making the gorups).

But honestly? NIN has good damage over time, and fully buffed can easily and consistently self SC darkness with blade HI. It's probably in the same realm that dancer is in with regards to the stigma the public places on it, versus the actual damage output and usefulness in reality. Though dancer is a bit more useful (heals and debuffs) all NIN has to offer is good dmg output and some damage avoidance.

Best advice I can give you if you're coming back... Level / gear a bard first. The meatheads are always looking for bards, and it'll be the way you gear all the other jobs you want to play.

You will also have no issues running Yorcia (A) on nin as DD role if you choose to go that path for getting some gear.
 Siren.Akson
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By Siren.Akson 2015-04-06 06:01:39  
After Taeon buffed all the 1 handers fortunate enough to be listed on that set it enhanced everyone with ta+10 acc+100 Str/Dex+35/35 which greatly increased 1 handers DPS combined with the WS aug'ed Taeon as well. Glanz MNK gained the most imo from such as it was incapable of having a combined offhand multihit + high acc set and suffering significantly being unable to equip a 115 OAT offhand to compensate.
Back to Ninja now. Other than MNK there are few better DD's in game compared to NIN now. Unless solo 5 step SC is your SAM setup NIN can and will beat SAM. Extremely easily too, if the only two DD are NIN + SAM, innin /ja negates overwhelm SAM /ja and NIN wins easy. If NIN caters to the SAM's strength and standing side by side then SAM can look better on parse.
THF is still good even after nerf but NIN ain't half as bad as ppl seem to think. Unfortunately with Yorcia Skirmish and now Vagary SE has thrown melee DPS completely out the window for Magic Damage instead of just correcting the issue without blatantly forcing it back into existence.
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 Asura.Wormfeeder
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By Asura.Wormfeeder 2015-04-06 06:36:34  
Expect to get treated like a dark knight.
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By Bismarck.Gippali 2015-04-06 07:09:09  
Asura.Wormfeeder said: »
Expect to get treated like a dark knight.

So treated well? All the competent nin's and drk's I know on Bismarck have no issue getting into parties.

OP: Play what you want dude. Nin is a well rounded dps job. You don't need to be insanely geared to be relevant (Taeon says hello). Play and gear what you love!
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 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-04-06 10:48:56  
I'm all for playing the job you love but let's not just spread completely false ideas about Ninja.

Quote:
Other than MNK there are few better DD's in game compared to NIN now. Unless solo 5 step SC is your SAM setup NIN can and will beat SAM.
Quote:
But honestly? NIN has good damage over time, and fully buffed can easily and consistently self SC darkness with blade HI. It's probably in the same realm that dancer is in with regards to the stigma the public places on it, versus the actual damage output and usefulness in reality.
Monk and Ninja are both subpar DDs right now, Sam without 3-6 stepping WILL beat Ninja by a decent margin just spamming Fudo. Sam 3-6 stepping is basically unrivaled currently after the Thf nerf except possibly by mythic Dnc or Blu.

If you want to play Ninja, play it. The job is around middle of the road as far as DDs go but it's not like this game has DPS checks that require you to do high amounts of DPS. Nin, like every job in the game, can and will complete any content done when paired with competent players and played by a competent person. Let's not pretend that that person wouldn't be better if playing another job though.
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 Bahamut.Seekerstar
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By Bahamut.Seekerstar 2015-04-06 11:14:18  
We've taken NIN as a DD/oh ***tank for D DM2. He did well enough when one of our paladins got pincered by a HM/EV and ate a CdC to the back.

Said ninja has his relic, though, and is really freaking good, so your mileage may vary.

Think outside the box, people.

I hear NIN with Ut: San can hold Tenzen indefinitely but I haven't seen it.
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-04-06 11:56:13  
Has Daken/Sange been added to scoreboard yet? That was one big problem of estimating the usefulness of Ninja. They certainly weren't on the spreadsheet last I checked and are a pretty big deal.
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By Lakshmi.Lenus 2015-04-06 12:08:44  
Its been added to SB for a while now yeah.

NIN actually isn't that bad, especially now that you're able to really ride Innin if you aren't supposed to be tanking anything.

The last time I got to play nin was incursion 128, and I was keeping up with a Tsuru pretty well, but I get destroyed by a koga easily.
This was before Daken/Sange changes. It might've been alot different if we had it then.

But ever since the daken changes, I haven't really had a chance to play ninja in much anything besides avatar fights or AA, and that was months ago lol.
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 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-04-06 12:28:58  
Good to know it was fixed. The difference between Tsu and Koga is actually not as large as people seem to think unless they are using the Koga to 6 step SC, it's likely that the Koga player was just simply better than the Tsu player instead of the difference in weapons.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-04-06 12:34:51  
NIN's ability to utilize Innin is key to their DD potential. Since the enmity changes, that balance might have shifted quite a bit, since they wouldn't be the fastest hitting capped enmity job in the party, a mythic NIN riding Innin could very well keep up with most other DD's, at least while Sange is up.
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2015-04-06 12:38:17  
As you can see, peoples opinions vary greatly. But it seems that the majority of those against it are riding the SAM bandwagon hard. Remove SAM from the DD equation, and its a different story. Yes SAM is great for setting up SCs, but its not the only job that can do it now. Hell, giving its versatility, I would say SCH would be better at setting up SCs in Vagary, since not only can they set up the SC, but also Ebullience nuke at the end for the MB, as well as toss buffs all around as needed.
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 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-04-06 13:20:30  
Odin.Jassik said: »
NIN's ability to utilize Innin is key to their DD potential. Since the enmity changes, that balance might have shifted quite a bit, since they wouldn't be the fastest hitting capped enmity job in the party, a mythic NIN riding Innin could very well keep up with most other DD's, at least while Sange is up.

This is more the key, however a PLD use Cure Cheat Holds hate with 0 issues as long as the PLD's not ***.

Sub Par Groups, NIN works well due to Innin but honestly there's no content in the game that requires the best jobs only anymore.
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By Bismarck.Nickeny 2015-04-06 13:43:33  
Bismarck.Gippali said: »
So treated well? All the competent nin's and drk's I know on Bismarck have no issue getting into parties.


Yea.... as Geos
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2015-04-06 14:20:13  
Nemn said: »
Hello:

Recently returned player. Quit just after ToAU release. Have come back with a friend and am reading a lot to catch up on how the game has changed. I am still deciding on which job/s I would like to focus on. I see that Ninja has taken on more of a DD role which is really cool. What can I expect from Ninja in terms of current content with friends/solo. Which areas does it shine in? Thanks.
If you're on Sylph, I'll pearl ya and let ya come to anything ya want as NIN.
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 Siren.Akson
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By Siren.Akson 2015-04-06 15:53:25  
Asura.Failaras said: »
Monk and Ninja are both subpar DDs right now,
Subpar? Did you update spreadsheet on MNK for Taeon and Impetus 119 emp body or parse any Koga vs Glanz lately? Koga is very beatable nowadays and tho I admit I'm mainly stuck on mage [geo/rdm/sch/blm] too often, NIN was right along side MNK on spreads. I'm talking 1500 Set DPS for both MNK and NIN while SAM was around 1100 with same exact buffs. Which should mean something even if you don't use or believe in spreadsheets. Acro didn't significantly boost 2handers, including SAM itself, as much as Taeon has done for 1handers. Until SE offers something beyond "Oh boy, you have found my THUNDER weakness! Please help me help you kill me!!" as it stands, the best DD in game as of atm is actually BLM. Which would be interesting to see how BLM would parse now vs older content like Delve.

The only thing that separates SAM and MNK dps from NIN is that they can flat out DD solo while NIN still heavily relies on other DD in pt to pull/hold hate so NIN can then utilize Innin /ja 30% crit rate boost. Other than that DPS is altered by other intangible variables making one DD > the other depending on target.
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By Lakshmi.Lenus 2015-04-06 16:10:17  
Siren.Akson said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Monk and Ninja are both subpar DDs right now,
Subpar? Did you update spreadsheet on MNK for Taeon and Impetus 119 emp body or parse any Koga vs Glanz lately? Koga is very beatable nowadays and tho I admit I'm mainly stuck on mage [geo/rdm/sch/blm] too often, NIN was right along side MNK on spreads. I'm talking 1500 Set DPS for both MNK and NIN while SAM was around 1100 with same exact buffs. Which should mean something even if you don't use or believe in spreadsheets. Acro didn't significantly boost 2handers, including SAM itself, as much as Taeon has done for 1handers. Until SE offers something beyond "Oh boy, you have found my THUNDER weakness! Please help me help you kill me!!" as it stands, the best DD in game as of atm is actually BLM. Which would be interesting to see how BLM would parse now vs older content like Delve.

Is this including Daken and Sange in the spreadsheets as well? Just curious because I don't have one with both changes.

Also about the BLM thing. One run we ran with 12 people in incursion, and Byrth was able to outparse both our Koga SAMs by some decent amount, and these guys are no slouches. So yeah with proper buffs, any nuking job can do great damage, including rdm/geo/sch. Its just a whole different ballgame now because of MB changes, nuking is much more superior today.
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By Siren.Akson 2015-04-06 16:13:31  
Yeah I seen one of my server's best BLMs almost doubled parse of an extremely good Koga SAM not so long ago. Think vs Vagary legs boss. And yeah spreadsheet using Daken+Sange.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2015-04-06 17:18:26  
If only Innin/Yonin didn't degrade...
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By Lakshmi.Lenus 2015-04-06 17:21:09  
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
If only Innin/Yonin didn't degrade...

If only Innin/Yonin didn't require positioning yourself*
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