Titan Fight - Tank Help

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Titan Fight - Tank Help
 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-15 22:23:02  
Did Titan (D) tonight with a BRD, WHM, RNGx3 and me (RUN). Went in, had no issues, except initial positioning for decoy, until Earthen Fury. At which time nothing I spammed could get Titan off the RNG. They said it was because some of them weren't using relics and spamming Last Stand, idk. I do know I don't like feeling helpless as a tank by not being able to get the mob off a dd.

How do you get around this? My gear is good, like I said, I had no issues what-so-ever. WHM is a rl friend and said he was just using Cure 3 on me, easy to heal. The issue was on that hate reset. Any suggestions on how to get it back? Or are they just screwed if they try to dps parse one another?
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2015-01-15 22:26:43  
sam sam geo brd smn whm

earthen armor / scherzo, don't cast shell or wear extensive mdt, every tp and spell will do <200 damage and you can drop them in 5 min

you could probably even drop the whm for a cor if smn and brd are attentive
 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-15 22:35:04  
Yeah, but I rarely get to play RUN so we were going to use it for this. The fight was going really good, smooth and easy right up to the hate reset. I'd like to figure out how to do this with a tank (RUN). As PLD I would have had the same issue, I have less hate generating abilites on PLD than I do on RUN. So I was screwed either way.

I went back and re-read the chat log. One of the rangers is fussing at another for spamming Last Stand. Looking through the chat log it looks like it became a parsing competition with the final /p being "This is what happens when we use Last Stand".

I guess there wasn't much I could have done. In any event, if you guys have any advice on getting hate back after a hate reset on a RNGx3 parse competition, I'd appreciate it.
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By Chyula 2015-01-15 22:37:04  
The pld basically do flash only and save voke and ja when hate reset. If pld can't get hate back just have rng shadowbind it.
 
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 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-15 22:45:29  
Verda said: »
Without the -20 enmity from Relic Weapons the rangers just have to slow down their damage and stack -enmity gear. Using decoy shot helps too.

You can also have a Thief steal their enmity and use trick attack to close a darkness skill chain on you. But they probably won't survive up close without earthen armor on. Summoners have the new blood pact to reduce enmity too using carbuncle. It is possible to cap -enmity with just gear on Ranger iirc. Have them do that and not spam. Fight will take longer but that's why the relic is so liked. Not b/c it does the most dmg but b/c it lets them do the most dmg because they aren't fighting their enmity gain.

Rangers and BLM's have always pulled hate pretty easy. Knowing how much is too far is part of playing the job.

Yeah, I always thought a RNG setup was the sure way to get a clear, albeit a bit slower. Whereas a melee was more riskier but faster. I think it was more or less a parsing competition instead of slow and steady wins the race. I used every trick I knew in the book to get the hate back, but I just couldn't do it (and not sure I could have at that point anyway).

I played RNG back at 75 and remember having to face the other way an awfully lot.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2015-01-15 22:49:07  
every post you've made has said its the rngs fault, they were playing wrong, it was impossible for you, so what's your goal here anyway

anyone dealing damage will have a nonzero amount of enmity, hate resets will require you to obtain more enmity than they have

and no, it's much easier to do with melee than rngs
 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-15 22:56:22  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
every post you've made has said its the rngs fault, they were playing wrong, it was impossible for you, so what's your goal here anyway

anyone dealing damage will have a nonzero amount of enmity, hate resets will require you to obtain more enmity than they have

and no, it's much easier to do with melee than rngs

Maybe I didn't make it clear in every post that I've re-stated what happened and asked the same question. So let me reiterate it for people with stuff up their butt.

Question: In the event that something like this happens. Does anyone have advice on how to salvage the run and get hate back? I.e. - When an extreme amount of hate has accumulated on another player, is there a way to quickly re-accumulate hate to stop the chaos (Foil spam? etc...)?

I don't get the point of your post, except to try and flex some kind of intellectual muscle. What does "and no" mean? I don't recall asking if melee was better, or easier. Who are you talking to? lol

Thanks Verda for the helpful info.
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By Carbuncle.Skudo 2015-01-15 22:56:58  
Verda said: »
Of course that's why the relic's are so sought after... it's not their best damage. It's the - 20 enmity.

It's the constant (low) enmity on Namas Arrow and Coronach.
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2015-01-15 23:14:46  
In these Avatar fights, Astral Flow will reset hate of everyone who gets hit. If you're bringing RNGs, the best thing you can do is have them hold after an Astral Flow, and then let you re-establish some hate before going nuts. Dishing out a powerful WS or Barrage right after Astral Flow would be about the same as dishing out the same damage at the very beginning of the fight. Note also that Avatars tend to use their AFs at certain intervals (depending on the difficulty), which I would put at roughly every 10% on Difficult (anecdotally speaking).
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 Bahamut.Gorion
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By Bahamut.Gorion 2015-01-15 23:16:37  
try to save all your abilities for when the Avatar (in this case Titan) uses his 1hr ability. It is a hate reset move. If the Rangers don't know to stop shooting, then they are retards. Any way if they accidently ws or shoot , then a good Weapon Skill, Shield bash, Provoke, Flash Should do the trick. i use as much acc gear as i can, and Love savage blade. It is doing some nice damage, which should help hold hate. hope this helps
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 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-15 23:16:41  
Sylph.Jeanpaul said: »
In these Avatar fights, Astral Flow will reset hate of everyone who gets hit. If you're bringing RNGs, the best thing you can do is have them hold after an Astral Flow, and then let you re-establish some hate before going nuts. Dishing out a powerful WS or Barrage right after Astral Flow would be about the same as dishing out the same damage at the very beginning of the fight. Note also that Avatars tend to use their AFs at certain intervals (depending on the difficulty), which I would put at roughly every 10% on Difficult (anecdotally speaking).

Thanks. I really wish they would have given Dimidiation the same hate generating ability as Atonement. You could drop that right after hate reset and grab it back.
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By Chyula 2015-01-15 23:19:38  
Asura.Alexandero said: »
Sylph.Jeanpaul said: »
In these Avatar fights, Astral Flow will reset hate of everyone who gets hit. If you're bringing RNGs, the best thing you can do is have them hold after an Astral Flow, and then let you re-establish some hate before going nuts. Dishing out a powerful WS or Barrage right after Astral Flow would be about the same as dishing out the same damage at the very beginning of the fight. Note also that Avatars tend to use their AFs at certain intervals (depending on the difficulty), which I would put at roughly every 10% on Difficult (anecdotally speaking).

Thanks. I really wish they would have given Dimidiation the same hate generating ability as Atonement. You could drop that right after hate reset and grab it back.

Atonement is garbage after hate reset.
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 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-15 23:20:57  
Chyula said: »
Atonement is garbage after hate reset.

Oh really? Shows how much I know about PLD these days. I just knew it used to be good for hate back in the day. Guess not anymore.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2015-01-15 23:24:10  
Asura.Alexandero said: »
Chyula said: »
Atonement is garbage after hate reset.

Oh really? Shows how much I know about PLD these days. I just knew it used to be good for hate back in the day. Guess not anymore.
The issue is, that Atonement's DMG dealt is based on your current enmity. So if you get hate reset and WS right after, it's gonna hit 0.
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By Bahamut.Gorion 2015-01-15 23:24:24  
Hate is 0 after reset . so yea attonment would minimal damage
 Odin.Ladyrikku
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By Odin.Ladyrikku 2015-01-15 23:53:09  
If this is the issue of hate reset, try to have your RNGs stagger their decoy shot activation so that at any time 1-2 rngs will always have decoy shot activated and after AF, have the rngs run up behind you and decoy hate back to you.
 Siren.Sieha
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By Siren.Sieha 2015-01-16 00:57:04  
the pld in my group doesnt have this issue. then again we only use relic rngs for fights.... why would you have rng if not with a relic.

as far as run tanking. if your dps sucks then your tanking sucks. its a dd trying to be a magical tank (aegis says hi). dont treat it like a pld, treat it like a retarded sister to drk. but really 2 dds or a pld are going to do better then a run trying to keep hate off rngs without relics. its like trying to use a pup auto to cure a merit party.
 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-16 20:56:06  
Siren.Sieha said: »
the pld in my group doesnt have this issue. then again we only use relic rngs for fights.... why would you have rng if not with a relic.

as far as run tanking. if your dps sucks then your tanking sucks. its a dd trying to be a magical tank (aegis says hi). dont treat it like a pld, treat it like a retarded sister to drk. but really 2 dds or a pld are going to do better then a run trying to keep hate off rngs without relics. its like trying to use a pup auto to cure a merit party.

I stopped listening when you called a RUN a DD.
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 Siren.Sieha
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By Siren.Sieha 2015-01-16 21:16:25  
Asura.Alexandero said: »
Siren.Sieha said: »
the pld in my group doesnt have this issue. then again we only use relic rngs for fights.... why would you have rng if not with a relic.

as far as run tanking. if your dps sucks then your tanking sucks. its a dd trying to be a magical tank (aegis says hi). dont treat it like a pld, treat it like a retarded sister to drk. but really 2 dds or a pld are going to do better then a run trying to keep hate off rngs without relics. its like trying to use a pup auto to cure a merit party.

I stopped listening when you called a RUN a DD.

I stopped listing when you started asking so many dumb questions.
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By Lakshmi.Lenus 2015-01-17 00:24:47  
Like some posts mentioned above, AF will reset enmity on all targets being hit by it, reducing hate to 0 or 1(I'd say 1 cause the avatar usually flies towards the mages/rangers after one gets off) Use a +50 enmity build or keep crusade up with some enmity to Flash it after AF goes off. Thats really your best bet.

If you're constantly whiffing and not dealing any damage, I suggest you just spam as much JA as possible in between Flash recast because they do generate some decent enmity. Its usually how it goes with pld anyways unless you're getting accuracy buffs or so. I haven't done these any lower than VD on PLD so I can't say if accuracy is still ***on D even with just only sushi.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2015-01-20 04:47:58  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
sam sam geo brd smn whm

earthen armor / scherzo, don't cast shell or wear extensive mdt, every tp and spell will do <200 damage and you can drop them in 5 min

you could probably even drop the whm for a cor if smn and brd are attentive


Pfft, what is this nonsense. It's now THF THF THF THF THF THF, get with the program already.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2015-01-20 04:50:39  
Asura.Alexandero said: »
Siren.Sieha said: »
the pld in my group doesnt have this issue. then again we only use relic rngs for fights.... why would you have rng if not with a relic.

as far as run tanking. if your dps sucks then your tanking sucks. its a dd trying to be a magical tank (aegis says hi). dont treat it like a pld, treat it like a retarded sister to drk. but really 2 dds or a pld are going to do better then a run trying to keep hate off rngs without relics. its like trying to use a pup auto to cure a merit party.

I stopped listening when you called a RUN a DD.

Pseudo-DD, or maybe support-DD. A RUN going /SAM can dish out quite a bit of damage while being extremely hard to kill in regular PT gear due to valliance. Put 2 RUN's together and they can alternate it and keep whomever else is in range protected. So for fights where all the damage is predominately from a single element type, a RUN can act as a DD while reducing damage significantly.
 Bahamut.Seekerstar
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By Bahamut.Seekerstar 2015-01-20 07:40:38  
RUN can keep hate even with nonrelic rng- if said rng can watch their enmity.

Same things happen to PLD, folks, let's not pretend they don't.

This is not to say that you NEED relic rng to clear content- oh hell no! You need rangers that know when shooting is a terrible idea.

Such as right after Earthen Fury, or any other hate reset move. (Kam'lanaut is famous for this crap... Great Wheel spammage!)

I've done Titan both as a rune fencer and as a ranger, and while I'll say it's definitely easier to be pewing rather than tanking, RUN is more than capable of holding any avatar that exists.

They're uniquely suited to it, provided they get support (just like a paladin!)

Last time I did Titan, our party was RUN WHM RNG RNG RNG RDM. 2/3 RNG had Anni. RUN was RUN/BLU. The only issue we had was a poorly-timed Jishnu's that ended up with Titan not happy with a ranger, catching the WHM in the backlash. Our RUN grabbed hate back as soon as possible, and we finished the fight with no further issues.

So I'll admit that being a ranger is certainly safer/easier with an Annihilator- I used a bow for awhile until I finally finished my gun. You do need to stop shooting periodically and use your JA correctly. There's more margin for error when you have that enmity- from Coronach.

Regarding 2x RUN setup- I've also done this, as one of the RUN. It's helpful when you melee avatars for whatever reason, because you can alternate Valiance, keeping your melee guys reasonably protected. If your other melee die, then if you can use a DD set without risking death, you can dish out a fair amount of damage as well.
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-01-20 12:17:03  
If you're doing just difficult, I'd say go RDM/NIN x2 + BRD. I attempted duo RDM + BRD on difficult and can get avatars down to 20% with just meleeing on RDM and BRD staying away for removing enfeebles. So 2x RDM, which have incredible self preservation capabilities will easily beat the avatars on difficult. RDM will tank, DD, and cure all at the same time, so no hate issues to worry about.
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By Siren.Akson 2015-01-20 12:34:16  
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
sam sam geo brd smn whm

earthen armor / scherzo, don't cast shell or wear extensive mdt, every tp and spell will do <200 damage and you can drop them in 5 min

you could probably even drop the whm for a cor if smn and brd are attentive


Pfft, what is this nonsense. It's now THF THF THF THF THF THF, get with the program already.
You can do these fights much easier using Aegis or RUN + x2~3 THF over Koga. Not to mention x2 pool. We did almost all avatar fights with such.
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