How Bad Are We Gimping Our Party?

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2010-06-21
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How bad are we gimping our party?
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 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-11 08:45:06  
I have MNK, SAM and alot of other useful jobs, but I want to play my main (WAR). I have absolutely no issues with setting up delve runs, skirmish, AA, or anything else myself. However, I usually end up swapping to MNK or SAM because Im worried Im hurting my team too bad to stay WAR. This is keeping me from working anymore on my WAR. Is there anyway for us to be a strength to our team? Does it require relic or mythic, Conq or Rag?

I want to be able to play my fav job, but I don't want to severely handicap my party to satisfy my wants. Can we compete and what does that require if so? Thanks guys.
 Ragnarok.Fasaga
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By Ragnarok.Fasaga 2015-01-11 09:13:53  
It depends how well you play the job, and who you are playing with. In most pug runs I do I can destroy everyone else, no matter the job. However, if I were to parse against myself on sam, or a sam who could play at a high capacity, I would lose. The way the current content is tho, it doesn't matter. Unless your planning on doing iLvl 140+ incursion you can walk in with any DPS jobs, and a good supporting cast and clear with ease. As far as weapons go, strive for conq as it's by far the best option. If you have ukon or bravura you can use those (it's what I used before conq). Otherwise, i'd recommend sticking to great sword. The AA GK greatsword is a good option, and a possible accuracy swap would be the mes'yohi GS from stellar. It's never going to hurt you to have a more 'useful' job ready for when its needed, but for a majority of content, if you make the shout, there's no reason you can't play what you want; as long as your play it well!
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-11 09:15:16  
You can play whatever you like, honestly. All this ***about the best DD the worst DD, we're talking 50 dps.

There's nothing inherently bad about war. It's just that if you're on SAM you'll kill something 7 seconds faster, and that's enough to make people go SAM ONRY.

There is essentially zero difference between SAM/WAR/DRG/DRK. Yeah, you'll put out slightly less DPS, big *** deal, unless you're getting close to timing out it's irrelevant.
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 Bahamut.Protectorchrono
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By Bahamut.Protectorchrono 2015-01-11 10:40:05  
Asura.Alexandero said: »
I have MNK, SAM and alot of other useful jobs, but I want to play my main (WAR). I have absolutely no issues with setting up delve runs, skirmish, AA, or anything else myself. However, I usually end up swapping to MNK or SAM because Im worried Im hurting my team too bad to stay WAR. This is keeping me from working anymore on my WAR. Is there anyway for us to be a strength to our team? Does it require relic or mythic, Conq or Rag?

I want to be able to play my fav job, but I don't want to severely handicap my party to satisfy my wants. Can we compete and what does that require if so? Thanks guys.


On this subject, I'd have to agree with Valli. Play WAR if that's what makes you happy. I've done delve runs with RUNs, WARs, DRKs and the occasional DRGs and BLUs and they were just as good as MNKs and SAMs. Even if WAR may give slightly less DPS than SAM or MNK, WAR is still a reliable DD job. If you are starting your own runs, play whatever class you want, don't be restricted to the norm that other people set for their runs.

I mean heck I bet you THFs and DNCs are doing delve now, especially since the Rudra's Storm upgrade lol so yeah play whatever makes you happy and don't let other ppl dictate to you how you should/have to play. We are all paying money each month on this game so live a little and have fun. :)
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By tarupowa 2015-01-11 10:42:47  
Bahamut.Protectorchrono said: »
Asura.Alexandero said: »
I have MNK, SAM and alot of other useful jobs, but I want to play my main (WAR). I have absolutely no issues with setting up delve runs, skirmish, AA, or anything else myself. However, I usually end up swapping to MNK or SAM because Im worried Im hurting my team too bad to stay WAR. This is keeping me from working anymore on my WAR. Is there anyway for us to be a strength to our team? Does it require relic or mythic, Conq or Rag?

I want to be able to play my fav job, but I don't want to severely handicap my party to satisfy my wants. Can we compete and what does that require if so? Thanks guys.


On this subject, I'd have to agree with Valli. Play WAR if that's what makes you happy. I've done delve runs with RUNs, WARs, DRKs and the occasional DRGs and BLUs and they were just as good as MNKs and SAMs. Even if WAR may give slightly less DPS than SAM or MNK, WAR is still a reliable DD job. If you are starting your own runs, play whatever class you want, don't be restricted to the norm that other people set for their runs.

I mean heck I bet you THFs and DNCs are doing delve now, especially since the Rudra's Storm upgrade lol so yeah play whatever makes you happy and don't let other ppl dictate to you how you should/have to play. We are all paying money each month on this game so live a little and have fun. :)
i was on dnc before the update, now i always get to go my fav job :D
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 Asura.Alexandero
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By Asura.Alexandero 2015-01-11 11:06:44  
Bahamut.Protectorchrono said: »
Asura.Alexandero said: »
I have MNK, SAM and alot of other useful jobs, but I want to play my main (WAR). I have absolutely no issues with setting up delve runs, skirmish, AA, or anything else myself. However, I usually end up swapping to MNK or SAM because Im worried Im hurting my team too bad to stay WAR. This is keeping me from working anymore on my WAR. Is there anyway for us to be a strength to our team? Does it require relic or mythic, Conq or Rag?

I want to be able to play my fav job, but I don't want to severely handicap my party to satisfy my wants. Can we compete and what does that require if so? Thanks guys.


On this subject, I'd have to agree with Valli. Play WAR if that's what makes you happy. I've done delve runs with RUNs, WARs, DRKs and the occasional DRGs and BLUs and they were just as good as MNKs and SAMs. Even if WAR may give slightly less DPS than SAM or MNK, WAR is still a reliable DD job. If you are starting your own runs, play whatever class you want, don't be restricted to the norm that other people set for their runs.

I mean heck I bet you THFs and DNCs are doing delve now, especially since the Rudra's Storm upgrade lol so yeah play whatever makes you happy and don't let other ppl dictate to you how you should/have to play. We are all paying money each month on this game so live a little and have fun. :)

Funny you say that. We've gone thf x 2 and mnk to tojil with no prob. Thfs ta the mnk and sa off of each other. Did AA Galka (D) with 2 thfs as well. Mnk came too but forgot to /nin so stayed dead the whole fight.

Ok, I feel better about playing war then. Which, I'm all about letting any job in my parties anyway.
 Bahamut.Malothar
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By Bahamut.Malothar 2015-01-11 11:10:27  
Ragnarok.Fasaga said: »
It depends how well you play the job, and who you are playing with. In most pug runs I do I can destroy everyone else, no matter the job. However, if I were to parse against myself on sam, or a sam who could play at a high capacity, I would lose.

Echoing this. DD jobs are closer than they've ever been before across the board. Last time I cared to spread sheet it out, War was a few hundred DPS behind other optimal jobs, but as said by others, if that few hundred DPS is costing you a run, you've got other issues leading to that outcome.

It's more the player than the job at this point in the game. Play smart, gear well, and find others who do the same and you'll do fine with any job you choose, barring gimmicks that create a preference for other jobs.
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 Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2015-01-11 11:17:55  
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
You can play whatever you like, honestly. All this ***about the best DD the worst DD, we're talking 50 dps.

The difference is more than 50 DPS just saying.
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 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-01-11 11:19:51  
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
You can play whatever you like, honestly. All this ***about the best DD the worst DD, we're talking 50 dps.

The difference is more than 50 DPS just saying.

Indeed it is, however his key point of "unless you are close to timing out" hits the nail on the head. I will ALWAYS join a PUG if they have an unusual setup, because SAM ONLY is boring as hell.


However with the OP's Q directed about WAR, WAR > SAM when Mighty Strikes is on, especially god for Zergs.
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 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2015-01-11 11:25:30  
I really can't say anything else that others haven't already said, but the bottom line comes down to: Just play what you want. More often than not, you will perform far better on the job you love than on a job you picked up only because of the SAM/MNK ONRY craze. Yes, you might have a bit lower DPS, but that should only account for a maximum of a couple minutes slower on a delve clear or half a minute on some high-tier. It doesn't matter nearly enough to be "gimping". Bring whatever you want and experiment with enjoyable combinations. Just have fun with the game.

I respect that you don't want to hurt your party, as that's an opinion not often found in the FFXI community today, but really don't worry about it. The last 15 Delve runs I've done (1.0 and Yorcia), I've told people to bring whatever they want. We've done nothing but THFs and BLUs and DRKs and even NINs, and we still clear quickly and efficiently. Just enjoy yourself. It's a game.
 Odin.Llewelyn
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2015-01-11 11:26:11  
That was a pretty depressing OP to read.
 Odin.Ladyrikku
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By Odin.Ladyrikku 2015-01-11 12:07:01  
I you feel your WAR is your fav front line DD, and that it's is well geared enough to be worth of high tier content, you should play your WAR.

I'm also in a situation where whenever I ask to join /yell groups as DNC it is always rejected as "No Thanks". Only my friends ask me to come DNC to High Tier BCs and on [D] battlefields I've always parsed close to or better than most DDs.
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By Blazed1979 2015-01-25 12:50:56  
they should just make all dps equal in output so that people can play the job they like.
over a decade of this *** nerfing/gimping/buffing back and forth was the final nail in the coffin for me. I don't like playing SAM or THF or GEO.

All my jobs got doodied on.You can sit here and rationalize how killing something with 1 SAM is only 7 seconds faster than killing it with 1 WAR, but 2x SAMs instead of 2x war is 14 seconds, and 3 is 21.. that and the fact that people will always take the path of least resistance means second and third tier jobs will be overlooked.
 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-01-25 13:01:20  
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
You can play whatever you like, honestly. All this ***about the best DD the worst DD, we're talking 50 dps.

There's nothing inherently bad about war. It's just that if you're on SAM you'll kill something 7 seconds faster, and that's enough to make people go SAM ONRY.

There is essentially zero difference between SAM/WAR/DRG/DRK. Yeah, you'll put out slightly less DPS, big *** deal, unless you're getting close to timing out it's irrelevant.
While I agree that you can play whatever you want and no content is tough enough for DPS to even matter, 50 DPS? Just talking spreadsheet numbers the difference between a non mythic War and a non mythic Thf is over 1000 DPS. In reality it's obviously lower but not even close to that low.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-25 13:58:07  
If you take away SA/TA due to spinning mobs, and *** DD who move to avoid being tricked.

Same set ups, same buffs, WAR is only 62 DPS behind THF. And The WAR sheet isn't even updated, and I don't feel like putting in all the new gear to make it a realistic scenario.

I dont know ***about current WAR sets so I could probably get it even closer. EDIT 10 seconds more work and I got it even closer. Bandwagonark even beats THF if you take away force crits.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-01-25 13:59:55  
So in the worst possible situation for non-RME THF, a slightly gimped relic WAR is only 100 DPS behind them?
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By charlo999 2015-01-25 14:01:29  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
So in the worst possible situation for non-RME THF, a slightly gimped relic WAR is only 100 DPS behind them?
Agreed.
Not using thf's biggest damaging JAs?
Also relic GA?
lol great comparison

Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
I can basically guarantee w/ 119 Bravura I can outparse bandwagon THFs.

This basically sums up what he wants to say.
Meeemeeeeeemeeeemeeemeee. Attention please.
Tip- no one cares.
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-25 14:04:27  
In the 10 second slapped together sheet for war yeah. I'm sure it's much closer in reality.

100 DPS lower is clearly worse, but its not enough rule out using a war at all. War is perfectly acceptable to use. (it could OBVIOUSLY be better.)

I can basically guarantee w/ 119 Bravura I can outparse bandwagon THFs.
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 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-01-25 14:15:52  
lol at that picture. I could post one where Thf is as 2555 DPS and War is at 1200 DPS if you wanted, both non RMEs. 50 DPS is an extremely low number, I wouldn't even say the difference between a Tsu and a Koga is lower than 75 DPS and those two weapons are pretty close. In actual scenarios a War will probably only be a few hundred DPS behind but that is still a huge amount. War is absolutely horrid right now and I really hope they fix it, it is one of the few jobs that just cannot even function at the lowest DPS tier without a Conq.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-25 14:17:44  
I can *** one too, but I said exactly what that comparison has. Same everything, simply turn off force critting for THF and its a 62 dps difference.

Could probably get it even closer if I knew what the proper sets would look like. Just kinda guessing at it for WAR.
 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-01-25 14:19:09  
You did *** one, remove every ability from one job and put it on a high level target and viola.
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-25 14:22:01  
He asked specifically about high level targets. So I used what he asked about.

SA and TA are not every ability. People move. Mobs spin. Ask any THF.

You guys go a little full retard when it comes to comparisons. Nothing is as good or as bad as you zealots make them out to be.
 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-01-25 14:23:58  

Guys look at my comparison, how does any job that isn't Thf function in this game. All you need to do is use atmas! Also he didn't mention anything hard.
 Odin.Llewelyn
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2015-01-25 14:26:58  
Asura.Failaras said: »
Guys look at my comparison, how does any job that isn't Thf function in this game. All you need to do is use atmas!
I'm on the side that removing even TA from THF in a spreadsheet comparison is dumb, but that was dumb too lol.
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 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2015-01-25 14:28:20  
Odin.Llewelyn said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Guys look at my comparison, how does any job that isn't Thf function in this game. All you need to do is use atmas!
I'm on the side that removing even TA from THF in a spreadsheet comparison is dumb, but that was dumb too lol.
I mean it was supposed to be...
 Odin.Llewelyn
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2015-01-25 14:29:00  
I know what you were going for, but still.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-25 14:30:13  
Like I said, full retard.Or is it pc to say full potato now?
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By Chyula 2015-01-25 14:33:41  
wtf why does every *** thread become omg thf is OP, when the fact is ***don't operational perfectly on paper. Thf is not over power my *** god, what is over power is the skicllchain damage that follow but only if a *** dummy to skillchain off.
 Odin.Llewelyn
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2015-01-25 14:38:58  
What's dumb about increasing kill speed? Talking Delve, Rana > Fudo > Rudra's is very powerful, even "3-shotting" many of the NMs in there.
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By Chyula 2015-01-25 14:43:17  
Odin.Llewelyn said: »
What's dumb about increasing kill speed? Talking Delve, Rana > Fudo > Rudra's is very powerful, even "3-shotting" many of the NMs in there.

there is nothing wrong with kill speed, but we can't compare two job by gimping another that the other job can claim epeen winner.
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