RDM Delve Stunning

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RDM Delve stunning
 Sylph.Otsego
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By Sylph.Otsego 2013-11-26 18:15:00  
Interesting debate on RDM being viable in delve or not. I have found with the runs I have gone on, RDM is nice to have, but definately not a required thing. Normally run 2x SCH/BLM 1x SCH/RDM instead of taking a RDM/BLM, and it usually works out better. Sure, RDM offers stuff like Dia 3, Slow/Para/Blind 2, Haste, extra cures, and everything else RDM gets, but by no means is it a requirement. As to the original argument on RDM stunning, its a viable option, as long as a SCH is present to be the main stunner. To my knowledge, RDM cannot reduce recast enough to be a solo stunner in any delve zone, but I could very well be wrong about that.
 Odin.Celoria
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 18:15:27  
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
No. No it doesn't. You're embarrassing yourself. You should stop.


That was the stupidest statement of the day. Stating that every little bit does NOT help and that an additional -10 acc on mob doesn't help was pretty stupid. There has been times my mnk has been missed by physical attacks from nm's I am certain and extra -30 total will help too.
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 18:17:04  
If I go out of my way to explain to you why blind/2 doesn't do diddy against delve NMs, will you stop?
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 18:18:30  
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
If I go out of my way to explain to you why blind/2 doesn't do diddy against delve NMs, will you stop?
If you go out of your way to bring a nm acc parse with and without a "good" rdm landing capped blind II, I would at least stop with the blind II convo, but you still would have to disprove rdm's viability with everything else.
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 18:46:46  
I don't need a parse. I've been playing this game for more than a month.

Hit rate is calculate like this: 75% + (Accuracy - Evasion)/2

If you have overall accuracy of 500 and the mob has overall evasion of 500, you will have a 75% hit rate. If the mob has 520 evasion, you will have (75% + (500 - 520)/2) = (75% + (-10%)) = 65%.

The reason why blind/2 isn't viable is that all Delve NMs have absurdly high accuracy rating. If their accuracy is comparable to their evasion, then it would be somewhere in the area of 800 or so for NMs like Tojil.

You also have a base evasion rate of 20%, which means you will evade 20% of all attacks regardless of your evasion. That mean you need at least 690 evasion for any of it to matter.

A THF, the job with the highest evasion rating in the game, has about 424 evasion skill and 60 evasion from traits. That means you need about 206 evasion from gear/buffs for any of it to matter. A MNK, on the other hand, has 404 evasion skill and nothing from traits, so they would need about 286 evasion from gear/buffs to matter.

Just so we're clear, +288 (286 + 2) evasion is what a mnk would need to go from a 20% evasion rate to a 21% evasion rate.

So, Blind2 has a cap of 30, you say. Okay, then our mnk would only need 258 evasion from gear/buffs to bring their evasion rate from 20% to 21%. I don't know about MNK, but my TP set has +104 evasion in it. Assuming the same for MNK, you would need 154 on top of their standard gear to bring their evasion rate from 20% to 21%.

And blind2 caps at 30. You would need to have Blind2 be stacked about 5-6 times over for it to start to matter.

All Blind2 is going to do is bring their evasion rate from 20% to 20%.

The best part about this is that I'm low-balling it. Their accuracy rating is most likely much higher than I'm assuming.


I'd like to remind you that I'm arguing in favor of a RDM's viability, the same as you. I just feel like I need to call you out for your outrageous claims because you're making my side of the argument look foolish.
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 Ragnarok.Presidentobama
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By Ragnarok.Presidentobama 2013-11-26 18:51:10  
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
I don't need a parse. I've been playing this game for more than a month.

Hit rate is calculate like this: 75% + (Accuracy - Evasion)/2

If you have overall accuracy of 500 and the mob has overall evasion of 500, you will have a 75% hit rate. If the mob has 520 evasion, you will have (75% + (500 - 520)/2) = (75% + (-10%)) = 65%.

The reason why blind/2 isn't viable is that all Delve NMs have absurdly high accuracy rating. If their accuracy is comparable to their evasion, then it would be somewhere in the area of 800 or so for NMs like Tojil.

You also have a base evasion rate of 20%, which means you will evade 20% of all attacks regardless of your evasion. That mean you need at least 690 evasion for any of it to matter.

A THF, the job with the highest evasion rating in the game, has about 424 evasion skill and 60 evasion from traits. That means you need about 206 evasion from gear/buffs for any of it to matter. A MNK, on the other hand, has 404 evasion skill and nothing from traits, so they would need about 286 evasion from gear/buffs to matter.

Just so we're clear, +288 (286 + 2) evasion is what a mnk would need to go from a 20% evasion rate to a 21% evasion rate.

So, Blind2 has a cap of 30, you say. Okay, then our mnk would only need 258 evasion from gear/buffs to bring their evasion rate from 20% to 21%. I don't know about MNK, but my TP set has +104 evasion in it. Assuming the same for MNK, you would need 154 on top of their standard gear to bring their evasion rate from 20% to 21%.

And blind2 caps at 30. You would need to have Blind2 be stacked about 5-6 times over for it to start to matter.

All Blind2 is going to do is bring their evasion rate from 20% to 20%.

The best part about this is that I'm low-balling it. Their accuracy rating is most likely much higher than I'm assuming.


I'd like to remind you that I'm arguing in favor of a RDM's viability, the same as you. I just feel like I need to call you out for your outrageous claims because you're making my side of the argument look foolish.


Rdms are in a state of denial. They need a self help 12 step group. So they can talk about the good old days and try to remember how to play there job close to 100% understanding and efficency.
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 Odin.Celoria
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 19:01:25  
Ragnarok.Presidentobama said: »
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
I don't need a parse. I've been playing this game for more than a month.

Hit rate is calculate like this: 75% + (Accuracy - Evasion)/2

If you have overall accuracy of 500 and the mob has overall evasion of 500, you will have a 75% hit rate. If the mob has 520 evasion, you will have (75% + (500 - 520)/2) = (75% + (-10%)) = 65%.

The reason why blind/2 isn't viable is that all Delve NMs have absurdly high accuracy rating. If their accuracy is comparable to their evasion, then it would be somewhere in the area of 800 or so for NMs like Tojil.

You also have a base evasion rate of 20%, which means you will evade 20% of all attacks regardless of your evasion. That mean you need at least 690 evasion for any of it to matter.

A THF, the job with the highest evasion rating in the game, has about 424 evasion skill and 60 evasion from traits. That means you need about 206 evasion from gear/buffs for any of it to matter. A MNK, on the other hand, has 404 evasion skill and nothing from traits, so they would need about 286 evasion from gear/buffs to matter.

Just so we're clear, +288 (286 + 2) evasion is what a mnk would need to go from a 20% evasion rate to a 21% evasion rate.

So, Blind2 has a cap of 30, you say. Okay, then our mnk would only need 258 evasion from gear/buffs to bring their evasion rate from 20% to 21%. I don't know about MNK, but my TP set has +104 evasion in it. Assuming the same for MNK, you would need 154 on top of their standard gear to bring their evasion rate from 20% to 21%.

And blind2 caps at 30. You would need to have Blind2 be stacked about 5-6 times over for it to start to matter.

All Blind2 is going to do is bring their evasion rate from 20% to 20%.

The best part about this is that I'm low-balling it. Their accuracy rating is most likely much higher than I'm assuming.


I'd like to remind you that I'm arguing in favor of a RDM's viability, the same as you. I just feel like I need to call you out for your outrageous claims because you're making my side of the argument look foolish.


Rdms are in a state of denial. They need a self help 12 step group. So they can talk about the good old days and try to remember how to play there job close to 100% understanding and efficency.


I still see it at 1% is 1%, every little bit helps in my opinion and on paper.
Also you are using "if" as a value, if is not a value. Bring a parse

As for Presidentobama, well he has shown cases of blatant ignorance and is just being ignored. Only reason I felt the need/urge to quote him is just to insult him and let him know that a large portion of people feel the same way. Especially since he shows sign of literally hating rdm's and the job itself with his previous statement in the thread.

Edit: 800 eva on delve mobs is high with the exception of the bee, considering you can have 620-630 and use red curry bun and hit with a 90% rate. Pre-skirmish gear and pre-delve wins, you remember those? The times people beat delve without all the delve/skirmish gear. You know with lol lvl85 emp weapons. Times they took rdm's to win... Which proves rdm's make fights easier.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 19:12:45  
Except you're not even going to get 1%.

You're not reading my post. You will need things like SV mambox2, GEO effects and extra evasion gear for blind2 to matter. For lower evasion jobs, even all that isn't enough.

This is an 11-12 year old game. We know the in's and out's out of this game pretty well already.
 Odin.Celoria
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 19:14:23  
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Except you're not even going to get 1%.

You're not reading my post. You will need things like SV mambox2, GEO effects and extra evasion gear for blind2 to matter. For lower evasion jobs, even all that isn't enough.

This is an 11-12 year old game. We know the in's and out's out of this game pretty well already.


You used "if" as a value, of course I am not reading your post. Get a parse.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-26 19:23:36  
weren't we using Blind on the Peiste because it prevented the glare move? I can't think of any NM's that blind was actually useful in terms of accuracy.
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2013-11-26 19:27:03  
Well if you're not going to listen, then there's no reason for me to convince you. I'm not going to go parse evasion rate against Tojil to confirm something we all already know.

We know the evasion rate of these NMs and we know that, outside of a few mobs with defined jobs, evasion and accuracy are approximately the same. We also have the formula for evasion rate. Doesn't take a genius to put these things together.
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 19:36:36  
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Well if you're not going to listen, then there's no reason for me to convince you. I'm not going to go parse evasion rate against Tojil to confirm something we all already know.

We know the evasion rate of these NMs and we know that, outside of a few mobs with defined jobs, evasion and accuracy are approximately the same. We also have the formula for evasion rate. Doesn't take a genius to put these things together.


Except you stated that they have an eva of 800, which is wrong.

Let me put it to you this way... Popular T.V. show "House."
Dr. House says run treatment.
Cuddy says do test.
House says i don't care what cuddy says, run treatment.
House runs treatment.
Patient starts having kidney failure.
Should have run test.

One of us is incorrect. I want to know whom.
Parse it.

Edit: at this point it looks more along the lines that you are afraid to be incorrect. Me personally I don't care if I am incorrect, I welcome it. If I am incorrect and proven incorrect I learn something. Which makes me a better player. Stop using "if" as a value and making up insane numbers like 800. I would love to be wrong, I would love to learn something I don't already know. So please. At this point.... Prove me wrong for my learning experience and your ability to say, "I told you so."
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By Zephin 2013-11-26 19:53:02  
Are Celoria and Jarrin the same person or did i miss the memo about "Try to annoy Ihina day".
 Odin.Celoria
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 19:54:57  
No I am my own person, i have no relation to anyone on here whatsoever. As for the annoy Ihina day, well my request is simple. I would like someone that has the knowledge and ability to do a parse to do one. I have made very clear and reasonable statements and facts, the only thing I would like it proof showing if I am right or wrong.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-26 19:59:40  
Odin.Celoria said: »
No I am my own person, i have no relation to anyone on here whatsoever. As for the annoy Ihina day, well my request is simple. I would like someone that has the knowledge and ability to do a parse to do one. I have made very clear and reasonable statements and facts, the only thing I would like it proof showing if I am right or wrong.

You're not really wrong, it does lower their accuracy, but they have stats so much higher than the player, that their hit-rate is basically always capped.
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 20:02:55  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Odin.Celoria said: »
No I am my own person, i have no relation to anyone on here whatsoever. As for the annoy Ihina day, well my request is simple. I would like someone that has the knowledge and ability to do a parse to do one. I have made very clear and reasonable statements and facts, the only thing I would like it proof showing if I am right or wrong.

You're not really wrong, it does lower their accuracy, but they have stats so much higher than the player, that their hit-rate is basically always capped.


I get that, I really do. At this point I want to know a physical amount on how much it actually helps or doesn't for that matter. I want to know if it is 0% or 1% or 50%. I want to know. Thats all there is to it. I have a desire to know this stuff.
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By Bismarck.Davorin 2013-11-26 20:04:10  
In reading all of this, I'm trying to understand why you are picking out and "if" statement when you said this earlier

Odin.Celoria said: »
Blind II potency helps with not getting DD's hit as much.

If you're calling for parses for someone else's argument, shouldn't you have exact values yourself?

Why is that your side is right until proven wrong by a parse?

/shrug
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-11-26 20:06:15  
Odin.Celoria said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Odin.Celoria said: »
No I am my own person, i have no relation to anyone on here whatsoever. As for the annoy Ihina day, well my request is simple. I would like someone that has the knowledge and ability to do a parse to do one. I have made very clear and reasonable statements and facts, the only thing I would like it proof showing if I am right or wrong.

You're not really wrong, it does lower their accuracy, but they have stats so much higher than the player, that their hit-rate is basically always capped.


I get that, I really do. At this point I want to know a physical amount on how much it actually helps or doesn't for that matter. I want to know if it is 0% or 1% or 50%. I want to know. Thats all there is to it. I have a desire to know this stuff.
if it doesn't get you off the floor, it doesn't do ***
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 20:11:05  
Bismarck.Davorin said: »
In reading all of this, I'm trying to understand why you are picking out and "if" statement when you said this earlier

Odin.Celoria said: »
Blind II potency helps with not getting DD's hit as much.

If you're calling for parses for someone else's argument, shouldn't you have exact values yourself?

Why is that your side is right until proven wrong by a parse?

/shrug

You obviously can't read. Apparently you missed the part about the knowledge and ability to do so.

Ramuh.Austar said: »
f it doesn't get you off the floor, it doesn't do ***
How do you know it doesn't? There isn't any detail to prove if it does or does not.
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By Siren.Stunx 2013-11-26 21:03:58  
arguing something with the smallest effect.. lolblind
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 21:10:03  
Siren.Stunx said: »
arguing something with the smallest effect.. lolblind


An effect is still and effect, and that is the point I am trying to make that people so blatantly ignore.
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By Siren.Stunx 2013-11-26 21:29:59  
yea and a 1tic poison also has an effect, do you think thats worth the attention?
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-11-26 21:43:36  
Celoria said:
800 eva on delve mobs is high with the exception of the bee, considering you can have 620-630 and use red curry bun and hit with a 90% rate.

No, you can't.

Before the iLvl upgrades, 620-630 acc was recommended, yes. That's because that's how much you needed in gear in addition to all the buffs being provided: Sushi, Hunter's Roll, Soul Voice Madrigals, and Geo evasion down debuffs. The total effective accuracy being targeted was somewhere in the neighborhood of 900. I know, because I'm one of the ones who was trying to get a handle on exactly how much gear and buffs were needed during those early attempts, and I ran through quite a few parses (both my own and others) to extract the data necessary to make that assessment.

Of course -now- you can get away with much less in gear and buffs because you've suddenly got an extra 200+ acc on your weapons from the combat skill on them. However that doesn't change the fact that the mobs' evasion is in the 800+ range.
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By Lakshmi.Plageus 2013-11-26 21:45:00  
Celoria, do you realize this game is based on mathematical equations? People don't need to run a parse to see that 2+2=4. Just realize that you are wrong and be done with it. Blind 2 is worthless. Even if it were possible to get it to have an effect on a Delve bosses acc (which would require ridiculously stupid buffs/gearsets), it will never make up for the mp cost as you would have been better off using that MP on ANYTHING else.
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 22:09:35  
Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Celoria said:
800 eva on delve mobs is high with the exception of the bee, considering you can have 620-630 and use red curry bun and hit with a 90% rate.

No, you can't.

Before the iLvl upgrades, 620-630 acc was recommended, yes. That's because that's how much you needed in gear in addition to all the buffs being provided: Sushi, Hunter's Roll, Soul Voice Madrigals, and Geo evasion down debuffs. The total effective accuracy being targeted was somewhere in the neighborhood of 900. I know, because I'm one of the ones who was trying to get a handle on exactly how much gear and buffs were needed during those early attempts, and I ran through quite a few parses (both my own and others) to extract the data necessary to make that assessment.

Of course -now- you can get away with much less in gear and buffs because you've suddenly got an extra 200+ acc on your weapons from the combat skill on them. However that doesn't change the fact that the mobs' evasion is in the 800+ range.

Wrong, period. Plenty of people ran in delve with 620-630 and popped red curry and went on to attack without much acc issues. Period.

Lakshmi.Plageus said: »
Celoria, do you realize this game is based on mathematical equations? People don't need to run a parse to see that 2+2=4. Just realize that you are wrong and be done with it. Blind 2 is worthless. Even if it were possible to get it to have an effect on a Delve bosses acc (which would require ridiculously stupid buffs/gearsets), it will never make up for the mp cost as you would have been better off using that MP on ANYTHING else.

Then show me the math... Bring a parse that proves it.

Right now this looks to be along the lines of proving/disproving religion. The major difference is this can be proven or disproved. However everyone wants to throw out an opinion and not prove/disprove. We know for a fact that blind II has more effect than blind I. So until there is viable evidence to disprove this in delve the statement will remain Blind II has more value even in Delve.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-26 22:15:04  
Odin.Celoria said: »
Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Celoria said:
800 eva on delve mobs is high with the exception of the bee, considering you can have 620-630 and use red curry bun and hit with a 90% rate.

No, you can't.

Before the iLvl upgrades, 620-630 acc was recommended, yes. That's because that's how much you needed in gear in addition to all the buffs being provided: Sushi, Hunter's Roll, Soul Voice Madrigals, and Geo evasion down debuffs. The total effective accuracy being targeted was somewhere in the neighborhood of 900. I know, because I'm one of the ones who was trying to get a handle on exactly how much gear and buffs were needed during those early attempts, and I ran through quite a few parses (both my own and others) to extract the data necessary to make that assessment.

Of course -now- you can get away with much less in gear and buffs because you've suddenly got an extra 200+ acc on your weapons from the combat skill on them. However that doesn't change the fact that the mobs' evasion is in the 800+ range.

Wrong, period. Plenty of people ran in delve with 620-630 and popped red curry and went on to attack without much acc issues. Period.

630 acc, yeah, but they had evasion down geo bubbles, gravity 2, etc. And that's also ballpark. You may think your hitrate is capped, but a parse is the only way to know it. I've seen quite a few parses where people were at 85-90% hit rate or less and had no clue.

Mote is the wrong person to argue with..
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-26 22:26:28  
Odin.Jassik said: »
Odin.Celoria said: »
Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Celoria said:
800 eva on delve mobs is high with the exception of the bee, considering you can have 620-630 and use red curry bun and hit with a 90% rate.

No, you can't.

Before the iLvl upgrades, 620-630 acc was recommended, yes. That's because that's how much you needed in gear in addition to all the buffs being provided: Sushi, Hunter's Roll, Soul Voice Madrigals, and Geo evasion down debuffs. The total effective accuracy being targeted was somewhere in the neighborhood of 900. I know, because I'm one of the ones who was trying to get a handle on exactly how much gear and buffs were needed during those early attempts, and I ran through quite a few parses (both my own and others) to extract the data necessary to make that assessment.

Of course -now- you can get away with much less in gear and buffs because you've suddenly got an extra 200+ acc on your weapons from the combat skill on them. However that doesn't change the fact that the mobs' evasion is in the 800+ range.

Wrong, period. Plenty of people ran in delve with 620-630 and popped red curry and went on to attack without much acc issues. Period.

630 acc, yeah, but they had evasion down geo bubbles, gravity 2, etc. And that's also ballpark. You may think your hitrate is capped, but a parse is the only way to know it. I've seen quite a few parses where people were at 85-90% hit rate or less and had no clue.

Mote is the wrong person to argue with..

Yet first off showing rdm viability once again with yet another spell it has to offer. Let's not forget people still won without perfect standing buffs and only had the 620-630 acc range.

Oh yeah, and you brought the term parse to the table, something I have been begging people to do with blind II...
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-11-27 00:02:44  
Celoria said:
Wrong, period. Plenty of people ran in delve with 620-630 and popped red curry and went on to attack without much acc issues. Period.

Saying "period" doesn't magically make your statement correct.

In this case, I have evidence, while you appear to only have hearsay. I won't bother digging up the parse data myself, though, as it's unnecessary effort. If you're really interested, read the old Delve threads on BG from back in May-June.

In addition, you seem to be completely ignoring iLvl weapons. For any of this hearsay you want to bring to the table, if the runs were made after the August patch that added combat skill values to iLvl weapons (and made it far more possible for the general public to win those fights, rather than only high-end dedicated shells), then your assertion is, de facto, false -- unless you're going to also claim that the alleged people were completely naked aside from their weapons. A hume mnk/war today using Oatixur and no other gear or buffs will have 704 accuracy (627 from skill, 77 from dex), well above your claim of 620-630. A good gear set (not even specifically focusing on accuracy) will add an additional ~140 accuracy (including dex), putting said mnk at around 850 total acc. Coincidentally, very close to the estimated total acc needed for delve bosses.

Take away the iLvl combat skill and the total drops to about 650. If 850 acc is getting you a 90% hit rate, can you guess what 650 acc gets you?

And just as an additional point, our group actually tried a run (~June time period) using pizza instead of sushi, since it looked like we had enough buffs to be able to step down on the accuracy food, and we were trying to eke out a bit more damage. That run showed that pizza provided an insufficient amount of accuracy if buffs were anything less than perfect (eg: once Soul Voice wore off, or if Hunter's Roll's value wasn't that good), and was marginal even when buffs were good. Red Curry Buns were never a workable option; you simply lost far too much accuracy by giving up sushi.


All this is simply to assert that Delve bosses have better than 800 evasion. The correlary argument, that they probably have a similar amount of accuracy, seems likely.

Now, supposing a mnk geared with a Whirlpool Mask and 4/5 Otronif. That would provide +197 evasion, on top of 40 from a base 80 agi, and 383 from skill. Add enhanced Dodge and you gain another 30, for a final total of 650 evasion. The mob would need to have 690 or less total accuracy before it would have any effect on its hit rate. Assuming Blind II was used, it would need an accuracy of 720 or less for it to have any meaning. A thf with Whirlpool and 4/5 Iuitl would raise that value to about 790, which is within spitting distance of what would be needed before Blind II started being effective, but a thf is unlikely to be used due to more practical reasons.

Additional buffs and debuffs can raise the total amount of evasion (eg: Mambos, Ninja Roll, -Voidance and -Slip), however since there's an opportunity cost for using those (ie: not using offensive buffs), it's unlikely that the total effective evasiveness of the melee will ever move above the floor.
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 Odin.Celoria
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user: celoria
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By Odin.Celoria 2013-11-27 01:17:42  
Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Celoria said:
Wrong, period. Plenty of people ran in delve with 620-630 and popped red curry and went on to attack without much acc issues. Period.

Saying "period" doesn't magically make your statement correct.

In this case, I have evidence, while you appear to only have hearsay. I won't bother digging up the parse data myself, though, as it's unnecessary effort. If you're really interested, read the old Delve threads on BG from back in May-June.

In addition, you seem to be completely ignoring iLvl weapons. For any of this hearsay you want to bring to the table, if the runs were made after the August patch that added combat skill values to iLvl weapons (and made it far more possible for the general public to win those fights, rather than only high-end dedicated shells), then your assertion is, de facto, false -- unless you're going to also claim that the alleged people were completely naked aside from their weapons. A hume mnk/war today using Oatixur and no other gear or buffs will have 704 accuracy (627 from skill, 77 from dex), well above your claim of 620-630. A good gear set (not even specifically focusing on accuracy) will add an additional ~140 accuracy (including dex), putting said mnk at around 850 total acc. Coincidentally, very close to the estimated total acc needed for delve bosses.

Take away the iLvl combat skill and the total drops to about 650. If 850 acc is getting you a 90% hit rate, can you guess what 650 acc gets you?

And just as an additional point, our group actually tried a run (~June time period) using pizza instead of sushi, since it looked like we had enough buffs to be able to step down on the accuracy food, and we were trying to eke out a bit more damage. That run showed that pizza provided an insufficient amount of accuracy if buffs were anything less than perfect (eg: once Soul Voice wore off, or if Hunter's Roll's value wasn't that good), and was marginal even when buffs were good. Red Curry Buns were never a workable option; you simply lost far too much accuracy by giving up sushi.


All this is simply to assert that Delve bosses have better than 800 evasion. The correlary argument, that they probably have a similar amount of accuracy, seems likely.

Now, supposing a mnk geared with a Whirlpool Mask and 4/5 Otronif. That would provide +197 evasion, on top of 40 from a base 80 agi, and 383 from skill. Add enhanced Dodge and you gain another 30, for a final total of 650 evasion. The mob would need to have 690 or less total accuracy before it would have any effect on its hit rate. Assuming Blind II was used, it would need an accuracy of 720 or less for it to have any meaning. A thf with Whirlpool and 4/5 Iuitl would raise that value to about 790, which is within spitting distance of what would be needed before Blind II started being effective, but a thf is unlikely to be used due to more practical reasons.

Additional buffs and debuffs can raise the total amount of evasion (eg: Mambos, Ninja Roll, -Voidance and -Slip), however since there's an opportunity cost for using those (ie: not using offensive buffs), it's unlikely that the total effective evasiveness of the melee will ever move above the floor.


Throwing out a bunch of numbers without knowing what you are talking about doesn't magically make your statement correct. I know how to calculate acc, I included dex in my count. The number still stands at 620-630. Again without thinking you talk about numbers without facts, these 620-630 acc builds were pre-dating the skill+ addition to the ilvl weapons.

I remember this number well because I did all the math and stretching I could to get myself ready on drk pre-ilvl skill + stuff. I hit that 629 exactly, (that included using food) and I was able to use red curry and do perfectly fine.

You are oblivious to the fact these nm's were beaten long before SE added in all the skill plus gear and skirmish gear.

Again til I see undeniable evidence that blind 2 has no value in delve aside what blind 1 can do I will continue to believe blind 2 will remain the better value.
Furthermore since the topic of this thread has gone completely astray let me bring it back to topic really fast then take it back off topic. Yes rdm can stun in delve, can it main stun that I do not know. Continuing on as the thread progressed out of everything I have said that makes rdm a viable choice if you have the slot open and/or need it filled, take a rdm. The only thing anyone has discussed or even attempted to debate (with nothing to prove otherwise) was that Blind II has no value over Blind I.

You want to look like I only "appear to only have hearsay." Then fine do me what I asked and show me some true math, not some *** numbers anyone can make up and imagine is true. Just because people run around now with 850+ acc doesn't mean it was always so. I asked for evidence to prove me wrong I asked for someone to teach me the "truth" in your statements, yet nobody can do so. Next I bet you will try to disprove imagination.

Get a parse. Prove me wrong, unlike the people that argue for the sake of being heard and think they are smart and know everything about this game, I happen to be a person that will admit when I am wrong. If I see I am wrong about Blind II, by all means I will say I was wrong.

Edit: And I will not buy into anyones pathetic excuse for math and calculations. After seeing the insulting blow to what we thought the light system in abyssea was vs what it really was when abyssea first came out has nearly shot all my hopes in random people's equations.

For the idiot that tried to tell me I don't know that this game runs on mathematical equations. No ***... Herein lies the problem, we can only guess what the math really is, unless you have the programming data that tells you the math behind this game you have no clue what it is. The only true math we can get is from parses. Even then that is limited data. Keep throwing your numbers around without a parse. You will never have any facts behind it.
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By Quetzacoatl 2013-11-27 01:39:51  
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