So I keep hearing that Shun outperforms Hi for the most part when fully leveled in terms of strictly WS damage on outside mobs. My kannagi is an lol85 and I am wondering if in certain circumstances, getting level 3 aftermath and then spamming Shun during aftermath is worth the effort on any targets that last long enough.
STR or DEX off hand in that scenario?
Shun And HI
Shun and HI
Always STR and just make an outside Hi set.
I can't be bothered to spend time doing that, I am working on a bard right now.
But thanks for the answer to my question
Does Shun outperform Hi outside?
I have been wondering this myself, I can't seem to find definitive answers.
EDIT:
I played around with Motenten's DPS spreadsheet and using only haste spell for buffs, and a few different gear setups I found that Blade: Hi outperforms Blade: Shun in every situation, and on every mob level. Both inside and outside.
Unless motenten's spreadsheet is way off, it looks like Blade: Hi wins. If you have a Kannagi, you don't need to merit Shun it seems.
I have been wondering this myself, I can't seem to find definitive answers.
EDIT:
I played around with Motenten's DPS spreadsheet and using only haste spell for buffs, and a few different gear setups I found that Blade: Hi outperforms Blade: Shun in every situation, and on every mob level. Both inside and outside.
Unless motenten's spreadsheet is way off, it looks like Blade: Hi wins. If you have a Kannagi, you don't need to merit Shun it seems.
if you have the right gear set Hi does more than shun all the time in or outside.
Aftermath is something to consider, even if you can get shun to beat hi by any margin, you'll lose a lot of DPS not riding aftermath.
Seems to me like the only time Shun would win is when crit rate is too low to benefit Hi, but have rolls/songs to counteract the attack down on Shun... or if for some reason your crit rate is extremely low on low level mobs.
Out of curiosity did you compare Shun and Hi both with Kannagi? If so you should probably consider Kikoku with Shun for the difference in stats and the triple proc.
If you did compare Kikoku Shun to Hi, then disregard this.
If you did compare Kikoku Shun to Hi, then disregard this.
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Bahamut.Wakabo said: »
Always STR and just make an outside Hi set.
Remora.Brain said: »
Out of curiosity did you compare Shun and Hi both with Kannagi? If so you should probably consider Kikoku with Shun for the difference in stats and the triple proc.
If you did compare Kikoku Shun to Hi, then disregard this.
If you did compare Kikoku Shun to Hi, then disregard this.
I compared Kannagi(85) vs. Kannagi(85).
I did not consider Kikoku Shun.
If you used Shun with Kikoku I would imagine it would come out higher outside abyssea for the most part. Simply because the tripple proc and large atk boost. Not to mention the odds of someone getting a 95 Kikoku with more ease than a 90-95 Kannagi.
Remora.Brain said: »
If you used Shun with Kikoku I would imagine it would come out higher outside abyssea for the most part. Simply because the tripple proc and large atk boost. Not to mention the odds of someone getting a 95 Kikoku with more ease than a 90-95 Kannagi.
I just ran it through, and it seems that Kikoku (85) vs. Kannagi (85) Shun outdoes Hi by about 10%
This is for weaponskill damage only, no aftermath etc.
The stats on a 95 should counterbalance the difference in ODT and ODD aftermath on anything not fodder shouldn't it?
Remora.Brain said: »
The stats on a 95 should counterbalance the difference in ODT and ODD aftermath on anything not fodder shouldn't it?
According to Motenten's spreadsheets I used the following:
Code
TP SET Qirmiz Iga +2 Rancor Max Brutal Suppanomimi Iga +2 Koga +2 Rajas Epona Atheling Twilight Koga +2 Iga +2
Code
SHUN WS: Thunder Sachet Ocelomeh +1 Gorget Brutal Aesir Iga +2 Athos Rajas Jupiter Atheling Ele.Belt Byakko Dilaram's
Code
HI WS: Qirmiz Thaumas Hope Brutal Centaurus Athos Seiryu CR Stormsoul Epona Atheling Ele.Belt Thaumas Thaumas
With ODD rate of 30% (100tp ws) on Kannagi(85)
ODD rate of 13% on Kikoku(95)
Total DPS on:
Fodder (lv.84):
Kikoku(95) : 246.802
Kannagi(85) : 220.078
Bluffalo EM (lv.99):
Kikoku(95) : 300.004
Kannagi(85) : 282.708
Qilin (lv.110):
Kikoku(95) : 116.157
Kannagi(85) : 106.782
Ig-Alima (lv.120)
Kikoku(95) : 8.502
Kannagi(85) : 10.447
I ran it through with minimal buffs, Elvaan NIN/WAR with bergressor up and haste.
Moral of the story appears that if you have a Kikoku 95 using Shun it is better than a Kannagi 85 using Hi when outside of abyssea most of the time (unless you are fighting level 120 mobs)
So you're saying that on low level targets with a 95, Shun beats Hi with an 85... the only thing about it that isn't intuitive is that Hi wins on Ig-Alima.
Remora.Brain said: »
If you used Shun with Kikoku I would imagine it would come out higher outside abyssea for the most part. Simply because the tripple proc and large atk boost. Not to mention the odds of someone getting a 95 Kikoku with more ease than a 90-95 Kannagi.
Triple proc rate is scaled down to be equivalent to a double proc rate on other relic weapons (13% vs 20%). In addition, it also only procs on the first hit of an attack round (no DA/TA/QAs).
Clean up those Shun/Hi kits before posting 'relevant data'.. Iga body and Aesir earrings are neat, yo.
Never compare a 95 weapon to an 85. Discussion then ends. This is shun with kannagi....and the answer was already said.
Odin.Jassik said: »
So you're saying that on low level targets with a 95, Shun beats Hi with an 85... the only thing about it that isn't intuitive is that Hi wins on Ig-Alima.
Edit: Also, he used very few buffs, so shun's attack penalty is probably not getting corrected.
That said, I don't know ***about ninja, but 90 Kannagi should be considered easily attainable especially if your comparing it to a relic.
Cerberus.Synap said: »
Does Shun outperform Hi outside?
You should be able to ride Innin in VW and also champion's tonic.
Blade jin < blade shun ?? please?..
The thread explains Blade: Hi vs Blade: Shun a bit.
For now. The update will cap Shun at 85% mod, no? Also, I think Kikoku needs a tad more than 13% ODD since it's 13% ODTriple that comes out to roughly 18%-24% ODD, or something. Depends on the amount of DA/TA/QA, then how many hits are actually just opening of the round where the 13% can actually happen.
Odin.Rikiyame said: »
For now. The update will cap Shun at 85% mod, no? Also, I think Kikoku needs a tad more than 13% ODD since it's 13% ODTriple that comes out to roughly 18%-24% ODD, or something. Depends on the amount of DA/TA/QA, then how many hits are actually just opening of the round where the 13% can actually happen.
Odin.Sawtelle said: »
Odin.Rikiyame said: »
For now. The update will cap Shun at 85% mod, no? Also, I think Kikoku needs a tad more than 13% ODD since it's 13% ODTriple that comes out to roughly 18%-24% ODD, or something. Depends on the amount of DA/TA/QA, then how many hits are actually just opening of the round where the 13% can actually happen.
They are 20% per merit so 100% at 5 and going 65% for 1 merit and 85% at 5, I thought. I haven't played in months and fell out of reading BG daily, so I am probably way off kilter. I trust your information, Saw.
Odin.Rikiyame said: »
Odin.Sawtelle said: »
Odin.Rikiyame said: »
For now. The update will cap Shun at 85% mod, no? Also, I think Kikoku needs a tad more than 13% ODD since it's 13% ODTriple that comes out to roughly 18%-24% ODD, or something. Depends on the amount of DA/TA/QA, then how many hits are actually just opening of the round where the 13% can actually happen.
They are 20% per merit so 100% at 5 and going 65% for 1 merit and 85% at 5, I thought. I haven't played in months and fell out of reading BG daily, so I am probably way off kilter. I trust your information, Saw.
Okay, assume we roll 99 Kikoku and 99 Kannagi. Would Metsu be the victor with +40%?
It's been said already, but I re-ran the spreadsheet for 99 Kannagi vs 99 Kikoku with Shun, and Kannagi was on top by a good margin.
Considering the fact that a 95 Kikoku will cost you 100ish Mil (with loan) + 60ish mil for marrows and a 95 kannagi will cost you around 135 mil + 30ish for dross, we're talking 160M vs 165...
I'd definitely make Kannagi 99. I'd wait for the pDif adjustments, because one hand relics will probably benefit from that most, but overall I still believe Kannagi is gonna stay on top.
NinjaEdit: Yeah lol of course I meant Kikoku and not Kamome xD
Considering the fact that a 95 Kikoku will cost you 100ish Mil (with loan) + 60ish mil for marrows and a 95 kannagi will cost you around 135 mil + 30ish for dross, we're talking 160M vs 165...
I'd definitely make Kannagi 99. I'd wait for the pDif adjustments, because one hand relics will probably benefit from that most, but overall I still believe Kannagi is gonna stay on top.
NinjaEdit: Yeah lol of course I meant Kikoku and not Kamome xD
Ragnarok.Galiber said: »
It's been said already, but I re-ran the spreadsheet for 99 Kannagi vs 99 Kamome with Shun, and Kannagi was on top by a good margin.
Considering the fact that a 95 Kamome will cost you 100ish Mil (with loan) + 60ish mil for marrows and a 95 kannagi will cost you around 135 mil + 30ish for dross, we're talking 160M vs 165...
I'd definitely make Kannagi 99. I'd wait for the pDif adjustments, because one hand relics will probably benefit from that most, but overall I still believe Kannagi is gonna stay on top.
Considering the fact that a 95 Kamome will cost you 100ish Mil (with loan) + 60ish mil for marrows and a 95 kannagi will cost you around 135 mil + 30ish for dross, we're talking 160M vs 165...
I'd definitely make Kannagi 99. I'd wait for the pDif adjustments, because one hand relics will probably benefit from that most, but overall I still believe Kannagi is gonna stay on top.
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